News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by kazinator on Friday November 05, 2021 @02:59AM (#29116183)
> There's no onboarding. No signup. No confirmation email. No OAuth. You're just in the product.

You mean like pretty much every single darned productivity program before year 200X?

It's sad that this even has to be an issue.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by simonh on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:44AM (#29118395)
OK it's pre-200x and you read about a new productivity app you want to try. You have to check it's compatible with your OS, figure out where and how you can buy it, wait for the diskettes or CD to ship or until you can visit a B&M store, run the installer, then manually enter a product key (fun!).

You'd be lucky to have it all done in less than a week and a few hours of your time. How soon they forget!

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by ChuckNorris89 on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:53AM (#29118482)
>You have to check it's compatible with your OS

You still have to today. A lot of stuff is Mac/Windows/Linux exclusive. Sure, I can run Windows stuff on Linux and vice versa if I'm tech savvy, but Mac stuff requires buying Apple hardware, so that's a massive barrier right there.

>figure out where and how you can buy it

Or you could just download it. The internet existed pre 200x as well.

> then manually enter a product key (fun!)

Honestly, it was fun. Much more fun than the phone-home, always-on telemetry and invasive DRM that act like rootkits & spyware we have today. Good luck playing older games you bought and paid for who's DRM require authentication from the publisher's servers that went offline years ago. Yeah, fun!

Back then, you paid for the product, you got your license and CD key, you owned it forever. No subscription rent seeking model BS.

Maybe I'm just old and cranky.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by dhosek on Friday November 05, 2021 @09:41AM (#29119072)
> Or you could just download it.

Outside of free software/shareware, there wasn't a lot of software available for download in the 90s. And compatibility was a lot jankier in that the base systems sold to consumers were insufficient to run a lot of popular software. For folks like you or me, probably not a problem (unless you happened to have a graphics card that wasn't supported) since we'd generally have obscene (by the standards of the day) amounts of hard disk and RAM, but Mom's computer might have 4M of RAM and a 10G hard drive.

Back in the floppy disk era the thing that always drove me nuts was that most (with very few exceptions) software vendors put the software key on the label of disk 1. Which would be in the drive when they asked you to enter the software key. I remember some OS/2 software that put it on disk 2 instead and I wanted to go to the company and kiss whoever it was who decided to do that.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by jjkaczor on Friday November 05, 2021 @10:39AM (#29119916)
>You have to check it's compatible with your OS >You still have to today.

Well - as recently as a couple years ago - even if it was a web-based tool, you would have to check which browser was supported.

Things have gotten better now that Microsoft has deprecated the entire IE-chain and moved to Chromium-based Edge. Things "just work".

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by simonh on Friday November 05, 2021 @11:46AM (#29120930)
The comment I'm replying to was in contrast to modern web apps. Hence the reference to OAuth, etc.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by kazinator on Friday November 05, 2021 @01:56PM (#29122630)
You still have to today ... and the darn thing will ask you to create an online account.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by zbrozek on Friday November 05, 2021 @11:45AM (#29120923)
It wasn't as onerous as you make it seem. Certainly that last bit - entering the product key - is way better than what we have today. I can save the key in a text file alongside the installer and the software can be reinstalled completely offline whenever I want.

I still have my Windows 98 product key and installer stashed away, purchased decades ago. And I actually used them a few months ago to stand up a VM to utilize an ancient printer.

Way better for me-the-consumer than the subscription-everything model. When software decides to go that way, I usually find a FOSS alternative or cling to the last standalone version.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by kazinator on Friday November 05, 2021 @01:32PM (#29122333)
Online installable software became a thing pre-200X.

Being prompted to create an account to use a word processor didn't come until later.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by dgb23 on Friday November 05, 2021 @04:50AM (#29116844)
Not sure what you are comparing this against?

---

First of all it's a free, open tool, MIT license, that is also hosted for free.

It loads instantly without an installation step. You just type in the URL and it works.

It's not a "productivity program" specifically as illustrated in the article.

The design is very simple, intuitive and deliberately minimalist, while it does quite a bunch of subtle things under the hood that harmonize with the overall goal of the program.

---

Now there may have been tools kind of like this in the 90's. Not aware of any of them from the top of my head.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by peterkelly on Friday November 05, 2021 @05:00AM (#29116916)
Parent post was not criticizing Excalidraw, but rather highlighting problems with other apps that are so prevalent today. They are saying that Excalidraw is great in comparison to apps that have those bad features, in other words "this is like the good old days".
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by ctvo on Friday November 05, 2021 @11:09AM (#29120345)
And what were those tools in the good ole days that had the features enumerated by the parent? Primarily free, open source, hosted, instant open, local storage along with the usability?

Excalidraw feels like a product of this time, and demonstrates some of the things we all enjoy about the web as an ecosystem. People compare it to some yesteryear product because of its purposeful feature set and look / feel, but name something from back then.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by kazinator on Saturday November 06, 2021 @03:07PM (#29132930)
Nothing is being contrasted in my comment. The software in question has the above features, and it has "no onboarding. No signup. No confirmation email. No OAuth."

It's just sad that you even have to have that in your checklist of things nowadays. Like it's amazing when software doesn't ask you to make another damned online account and just lets you use it. (And it's good that this doesn't, yay.)

Hosted is a negative feature to me (other than for trying the software). You don't control the software installation.

Tomorrow you could wake up and try to continue your work, to discover that some feature is missing you were depending on, or new bugs are happening that weren't there and so on. Or your local storage is borked because it's not being read correctly by the newly installed code.

It's good if something is hosted for trying out, but you want it to be locally installable so you and your team can depend on it, and evaluate updates before rolling them out, and roll back bad updates.

"Has local storage" is another thing that is sad to see as having to tick off a checklist.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by peterkelly on Saturday November 06, 2021 @12:09AM (#29127450)
> but name something from back then

You insert the CD, install the software, and then it's ready to use. That's it.

To reiterate the quote from the article the GP mentioned:

> There's no onboarding. No signup. No confirmation email. No OAuth. You're just in the product.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by michaelt on Friday November 05, 2021 @04:57AM (#29116885)
I assume kazinator means: In Office 95, you click the Excel icon and it opens to a blank document with no login or registration or anything like that. As did drawing software, 3D modelling software, and so on.

Of course, arguably one did have to pay for it and install it - but that was a one-off thing.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by BjoernKW on Friday November 05, 2021 @07:13AM (#29117676)
People might be seeing this through slightly rose-tinted glasses.

Yes, you could use Excel 95 by just double-clicking on an icon.

However, not only did you have to buy and install the software, which back in the day often meant going to an actual brick-and-mortar store to purchase a shrink-wrapped box labelled "Office 95", but it even required buying a specific type of computer with a specific operating system first.

In this specific case, that doesn't even take into account Microsoft's shady tactics of strong-arming vendors and OEMs into exclusively shipping Microsoft software with their products.

So, arguably, the barrier to entry still was a lot higher than with even the most obnoxious growth hacking tactics we see in many SaaS products today.

That said, I absolutely love the way Excalidraw are "onboarding" users.

It's just worth remembering that not everything went downhill with SaaS products (in fact, quite the opposite) and not everything was better "back in the day".

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by yen223 on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:39AM (#29118339)
Shrink-wrapped software back then weren't cheap too, costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars per copy.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by samstave on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:52AM (#29118479)
Dear god - anyone here have to setup licensing servers for high-end 3D software from the past, like Softimage or Alias|Wavefront - those were a bitch, and if you lost connection to the licensing server, you couldnt run the program.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by bayindirh on Friday November 05, 2021 @05:47AM (#29117176)
Excalidraw is akin to dia, but on the web. Also, it's more targeted and polished it seems, and that's nice.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by sytelus on Friday November 05, 2021 @04:21AM (#29116679)
Yes, but they also don’t have to run series rounds, forced to grow 50% YoY, exit in 5 years and retire before they turn 30.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by jamil7 on Friday November 05, 2021 @03:46AM (#29116416)
No annoying drip emails “checking in” every few days.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by jesterson on Friday November 05, 2021 @03:57AM (#29116506)
"Hey, I know you are super busy but I just wanted to check..."

Makes me want to ditch the product on the spot. Yes, I've seen your emails. Yes, I will let you know if I need anything. No, I don't need a zoom call/onboarding video/introductory convo with your marketing team.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by ballenf on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:29AM (#29118237)
Ditching the product is probably the goal of the email, if the stats show that paid adoption happens within x days 98% of the time.

What I think those stats miss is that I will test a product with one email and if I decide to buy for a team will use a new account. So it looks like the conversion happened immediately skewing their sales/marketing strategy.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by OneTimePetes on Friday November 05, 2021 @05:06AM (#29116936)
Google and Co really dragged this industry into the mudpit.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by ChuckNorris89 on Friday November 05, 2021 @06:37AM (#29117446)
You mean that the companies making insane margins and paying top compensation are exactly the ones responsible for most of this this since they're massively profiting from monetizing consumers through various dark patterns, ads and spying?

Shocking! Who would have thought? /s

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by ZeroGravitas on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:11AM (#29118095)
I originally was going to sarcastically point out that this just means it's at the early stages of the process, when it needs to attract the power users and early adopters. Once they're on board they can start to annoy everyone and take advantage of the lock-in to attract more users while preventing current users from leaving.

I then read that it was free and open, so felt bad, but did notice an ad for Excalidraw+, which basically means my cynical first take is likely to come true eventually, as that is what the market will optimize towards.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by Vinnl on Friday November 05, 2021 @03:20AM (#29116303)
Also no install though.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by remus on Friday November 05, 2021 @07:53AM (#29117944)
It's actually a pretty good example of a PWA which can be installed (depending on whether your platform supports it, works well with chrome and windows, sorta works on iOS but more fiddly. Havent tried firefox).
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by Vinnl on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:41AM (#29118364)
It can be, but I was mostly trying to list a benefit that the "good old" apps didn't have, i.e. not needing to install it.

That said, I'd also misunderstood the grandparent comment: they meant that it's a shame that Excalidraw is one of the few apps nowadays that have these features, even if the other ones also have advantages like not requiring an install.

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by kazinator on Friday November 05, 2021 @01:34PM (#29122360)
Ah, but this business of being prompted to create an account also afflicts software that requires installation.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by kavalg on Friday November 05, 2021 @04:58AM (#29116898)
they do have a docker image (no collaboration though)
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by gilbetron on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:53AM (#29118494)
I agree with the annoyance of so many modern tools and all the crap to use them, and appreciate ExcaliDraw for not doing it, but what is this talk of productivity programs being some sort of nirvana before 200x?
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by watersb on Friday November 05, 2021 @06:39AM (#29117462)
You can hurt yourself if you run with scissors.
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by watersb on Friday November 05, 2021 @07:10AM (#29117653)
The first "onboarding" I can remember, from Microsoft Word 6.0 in (?) 1993.

It would display a dialog when you opened the program. Every. Damn. Time. Displayed a useful tip from the included documentation.

At the time, it felt like a huge, complicated, OLE application, a big departure from the previous version, Word 5.1.

I suspected that some members of the Word 6 product team felt the same about that startup dialog: at a loss to suggest anything productive for that "Useful product tip for today", they wrote down some inane safety tips.

"Welcome to Microsoft Word... You can hurt yourself if you run with scissors."

Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by ClumsyPilot on Friday November 05, 2021 @06:53AM (#29117552)
I sympathose with the author, bit I shouldn't have to scroll past that to find out what does the tool he is raving about actually do. This stuff can go below that
Re:Why is Excalidraw so good? by Ettaa on Friday November 05, 2021 @05:54AM (#29117213)
Exactly, like good ol' times