News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by csee on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:24AM (#29082617)
Trustworthiness, sure. But not friendliness (unless it's asshole-level unfriendliness) over competence. There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate, who will often get too many passes and second chances (because they're well liked) before being terminated.

I'll take neutral friendliness, or even slightly unfriendly, + extreme competence, any day.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by gorbachev on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:38PM (#29083662)
> There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate

Except that you can teach them things.

It's hard to teach an unfriendly person anything, and it's impossible to teach an arrogant asshole anything at all, because they think they're better than anyone else.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by Jensson on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @06:39PM (#29088469)
The best predictor of teachability is how much they learned in the past. If a person is incompetent today then most likely they will be hard to teach, and if a person is competent today they will soak up most things you say.

There are exceptions of course, but friendly and unteachable and unfriendly but very teachable are both very common scenarios. Teaching the unfriendly person might not be fun but it still works.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by bagacrap on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @01:48PM (#29084798)
I don't know about;"teaching", but I think people can change their nature and it's life experience that causes this to happen. It would be pretty surprising to me if someone acted the same way at 23 and 32. Arrogance in particular is something that often ebbs with age.

OTOH, for software, the most important skill is resourcefulness, and that seems like more of an intrinsic property of someone's personality.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by gorbachev on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:15PM (#29085221)
True, however, arrogant assholes remain arrogant assholes, in general, much longer than friendly incompetent people remain incompetent.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by DoingIsLearning on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @03:51PM (#29086544)
> Arrogance in particular is something that often ebbs with age.

I would argue that arrogance ebbs with experiencing or observing failure just enough times.

Failures and their lessons usually correlate with age. However, it is not unusual to find people with enough age and nous yet lacking the graciousness you expect from experts/mentors.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by mym1990 on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:49PM (#29083829)
Second this. It is weird that parent went from incompetence directly to being terminated. Competence is built over long periods of time, and if you're lucky you can positively influence an "incompetent" person rather than putting them back into the water.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by dgb23 on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:48AM (#29083010)
I personally have no problem with "hard-shell" type of people who are maybe _rough_ and direct, but have emotional depth and are ultimately self-reflective. They can come off as assholes to some people, but most of the time (not always...) they are just uncomfortable, which can have very positive effects as well.

So I'm personally not like that though in most situations. I think it's counterproductive with most people and often rude. I think the above is a bad strategy in more than 60% of cases (scientific number; totally not pulling that out of my ass), because most people take direct criticism personally or become defensive.

However in my closer professional circle I very often prefer uncomfortable no-bullshit type of style. It's simply more _effective_ and clear.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by doteka on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:30AM (#29082733)
I don’t think that’s an opinion held by someone who actually worked with/had to manage the combination of “slightly unfriendly + extreme confidence” before. That is how you get Prima Donnas, temper tantrums during technical discussions and other fun stuff.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by pydry on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:04PM (#29083216)
I've yet to work for somebody exhibiting extreme confidence in a work situation who wasnt covering for something - usually a lack of competence.

I've heard stories of "brilliant assholes" but once I've peeled back the layers of these stories I always develop a strong impression that the brilliance is a facade.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by watwut on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:22PM (#29083455)
My experience with brilliant assholes is that it is combination of self sufficient prophecy and bullying effects. Some people think that being asshole is component of being brilliant and thus they assume you to be brilliant if you act like ass.

And the other component is that assholes often times end up dominating rooms and looking brilliant, because they effectively bully others into being silent. For most people, being silent is better then risking the asshole will target you.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by mypastself on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:33AM (#29082785)
Extreme competence, not confidence.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by delecti on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:34AM (#29082789)
Someone extremely confident and prone to tantrums is not friendly.

Competence is not necessarily linked with a lack of humility.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by BeetleB on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @02:09PM (#29085151)
> There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate, who will often get too many passes and second chances (because they're well liked) before being terminated.

In my experience, a brilliant asshole is worse. He's less likely to be terminated, and causes problems for everyone. Incompetent people are self aware of their incompetence. Brilliant assholes rarely acknowledge their problem.

The one time I dealt with a brilliant asshole - oh wow. He would be right 90% of the time, but for the remaining 10% there would be no way on Earth you could convince him he was wrong. You could bring evidence, mathematical proof, anything: He just wouldn't listen. It got to me being very careful that he not be around when I'd ask for help - because he often misunderstood my problem and would then insist I implement his solution, and there was no way I could convince him that he misunderstood the problem statement. If I ignored him and implemented a different solution, he would throw a loud tantrum. And he had no stake in my work - we were working on different projects.

I spent two years in that team and every time he acted up I started documenting it.

I never complained (it was clear the manager didn't want to deal with people problems), and on the outside I didn't let my frustration show. I now hear that another member of that team is really complaining to the manager about him. I reached out to him and let him know that if he wants to escalate with HR, I have plenty of material to provide.

The one nice thing with incompetent people is you at least look better when it comes to reviews. I know in one job I had I ended up slacking quite a bit, but I knew it wouldn't hurt me because they had quite a few people at my grade level who were just plain incompetent. Management isn't going to give the whole team a poor review.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by gregkerzhner on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:15PM (#29083364)
Someone who is friendly but incompetent is fun to shoot the shit with, but they will also make a commit that breaks prod and duck out for the weekend leaving you to fix the mess. Less competence ultimately means more burden and headache for those that are more competent, and at the end of the day, I value having coworkers who I can rely on more than having coworkers who are easy to talk to.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by csee on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:31PM (#29083592)
For me, they're not even fun to shoot the shit with. There's nothing like 1 year of built-up resentment at having to pick up their slack again and again only to be paid roughly the same and sharing half the credit with them.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by pydry on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:19PM (#29083412)
IME many less competent folks tend to avoid doing the work that puts everybody else in this position and will pick up donkey work instead.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by watwut on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:24PM (#29083488)
This is more related to risk taking.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by almeria on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:40AM (#29082884)
There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate, who will often get too many passes and second chances (because they're well liked) before being terminated.

Except of course for the perfectly (if narrowly) competent but decidedly jerkface and/or outright asshole teammate. Who is even more likely to get a pass for being such a "rainmaker". Or because "it's crunchtime and we need all the firepower we can get our hands on".

Which was basically the article's point.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by glipglop4lyfe on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:30AM (#29082731)
> There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate

What about a very competent but toxic personality who ends up preventing contributions from other team members, because when they contribute they get belittled or bullied?

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by gherkinnn on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:15PM (#29083361)
I'd take a nice incompetent over a highly capable arsehole any day.

At worst, the former is a neutral in his overall contributions, whereas the latter will be a net negative.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by Jensson on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @06:56PM (#29088634)
> At worst, the former is a neutral in his overall contributions

No, with an extra teammate the expectations on your team increases, so you have to work hard enough to pay for that guys salary as well.

Lets extend this a bit, would you prefer to work in a team with 5 incompetent but nice persons who don't contribute anything, so your work has to be enough to pay all their salaries, or would you want to work with 5 assholes who work hard enough that you can slack all day because they pick it up? I'm sure a majority would prefer the second scenario, the first scenario would lead to burnout really quickly and soon they will call you the toxic asshole genius.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by blibble on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @09:18PM (#29089963)
how incompetent?

I've worked with people that refuse to do anything in git other than commit, which means:

    - new copy of the repo every time origin changes
    - spending a week manually rebasing a dozen commits (obviously with many unique mistakes each time)
after being sent multiple simple videos explaining simple things about git, and shown how to do merge/rebase multiple times by the lead using screen sharing

and refuses to upgrade their monitor from 1366x766 even after being given the money to do it, because "it's not necessary"

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by t-3 on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:35PM (#29083636)
Someone who prevents work from being completed is not competent. The one-dimensional view of competence as being purely technical knowledge is not useful for measuring ability to complete projects and advance the goals of the business.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by vladvasiliu on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:29AM (#29082709)
> There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate, who will often get too many passes and second chances (because they're well liked) before being terminated.

This reminds of people who try to defend someone accused of incompetence: "but s/he's so nice!"

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:34AM (#29082803)
Most teams don't have a pressing need for competence. As long as they tread water, they're fine. If they outperform, there is no meaningful reward. In those environments, friendliness trumps competence.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by tablespoon on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:49AM (#29083026)
> But not friendliness (unless it's asshole-level unfriendliness) over competence.

If you could translate "friendliness" and "competence" into equivalent units, I think competence would be devalued compared to friendliness, at least once you get into negative values (e.g. for every extra point of unfriendliness, you need 5-10 competence points to make up for it).

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by Aunche on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:41AM (#29082906)
I mean you aren't really contradicting anything. Friendly people get too many passes and second chances because people like them.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by crate_barre on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:28AM (#29082686)
I’ll take anyone that doesn’t create extra work for me, you can be an asshole no problem.

The easier you make doing my job (eg, I can get my work done without you adding bullshit code that I need to make my way around), the more I’m willing to forgive almost anything.

Just be invisible to my work plans for the day, and we’re all good.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by watwut on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:38AM (#29082864)
> There's little worse than a friendly but incompetent teammate

Did you met unfriendly and incompetent? Cause those really sux.

The worst is "jerk, average competent, but people who don't work directly with him assume he is genius because he is jerk".

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by gfodor on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:05PM (#29083231)
Not to mention because you often genuinely like them, it is harder to give them negative feedback in many ways, which is a bad feedback loop.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by omegalulw on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @09:51PM (#29090199)
> But not friendliness (unless it's a***-level unfriendliness) over competence.

This is the wrong way of looking at things. You shouldn't compromise on friendliness and you shouldn't compromise on competence. If you have to compromise, you compromise a little bit on both but not too much on either. An unfriendly teammate is very bad.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by jayd16 on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:03PM (#29083202)
I get what you're saying but if they're reliable its different.

If they ask for help and won't just go missing for a week or something like that, then its not a big deal if they need some hand holding on a more complex task. Reliably mediocre is better than unreliable, any day.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by zitterbewegung on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:27AM (#29082674)
Anecdotal evidence doesn’t trump actual research…
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by mortehu on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:29AM (#29082716)
Keep in mind this is just a survey of students in class projects.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by moepstar on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:31AM (#29082747)
Depends i guess - if you've got a teammate that is plainly and repeatedly careless/incompetent in his doing you're not exactly going to throw your hands up and think "This is fine, the research says it is", right?

Anecdata: colleague of mine at least twice a week reboots production servers during the day, sometimes by themselves, sometimes along with their ESX-hosts...

His response? "Oops."

Does he ever learn from it? Doesn't look like it...

I mean, i'm not exactly working at a hospital or something - i.e. no peoples lives on the line, but try to explain for the n-th time to someone whose last hours work was lost because someone couldn't be bothered to check if he can reboot that server now or not?

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by papito on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:37AM (#29082851)
I understand that HN leans toward research as the final word on everything, but sometimes anecdotal evidence is pretty accurate. It's like saying "but the poll researches are saying candidate X is going to win". Then a seasoned advisor actually lands on the ground and counts the yard signs and talks to people, and the picture becomes much less clear.

Not to mention that the "research paper" industry is often very manipulated, inaccurate, and sometimes downright fraudulent. Ironically, also discussed on HN once a blue moon.

What I am saying is, do site the "research papers", but don't use that to shut down an argument. It's a clue, not a fact.

Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by zitterbewegung on Wednesday November 03, 2021 @10:49AM (#29095457)
The anecdotal evidence also has a negative bias. Given two results from a research paper a person is more likely to share a negative result to a positive results. This is anecdotal evidence .
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by boredumb on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:32AM (#29082755)
The actual research is a collection of anecdotes from students doing class projects.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by bjourne on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:20PM (#29083421)
But that actually makes the result even more significant. Class projects are heavily dependent on every student in the group pulling their part. Someone who is nice but incompetent may cost a student several grade levels, while a competent asshole may allow for them to coast along and still receive a top grade.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by Jensson on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @06:53PM (#29088607)
This is a study of MBA students. I'm pretty sure you'd get very different results if you asked CS students, there I think people would take the unfriendly genius who guarantees them an A+ on the assignment over the friendly guy who doesn't contribute anything.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by tssva on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:03PM (#29083192)
According to the article the actual research showed that people preferred trustworthy and competent over trustworthy and friendly. They preferred trustworthy and friendly over just competent.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by xxs on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @12:10PM (#29083303)
The people in the research are students and we know nothing about their experience in any real work environment, or if they have been in a position where the progress on their tasks/teams depends on the competence level of their co-workers.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by deepstack on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:30AM (#29082720)
Really depending on the people. Sometime I prefer prefer friendliness over competence. However if the competency involves me doing work to cover for the other colleague, then I take unfriendliness and competent anytime.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by csee on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:39AM (#29082871)
I was sharing my subjective preference and the reasons for my preference. The research is surveying other people's subjective preferences. There is no conflict here.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by serverholic on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @11:30AM (#29082721)
Be careful of extrapolating this too far.
Re:People prefer friendliness, trustworthiness in teammates ... by mountainriver on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @08:25PM (#29089503)
Amen I would go as far as to say this is rotting American corporations