News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by emilsedgh on Saturday October 30, 2021 @05:53AM (#29047447)
Metaverse is not bullshit. It's a sign of desperation.

Facebook has _nothing_ for the future.

* Blue app is already on it's death bed.

* Instagram is already seeing a massive decline in quality and engagement as its getting close to the end of its lifecycle.

* They managed to survive Snapchat, but I think that made them think Instagram is too big to fail. Thus, they didn't go after TikTok. It was a mistake.

* What's App is not monetizable.

* Oculus is not becoming the next PS4/Xbox like they hoped.

Facebook is usually being compared to the likes of Apple, Google and Amazon. It's nothing compared to them. It's not even gonna be able to do a Microsoft/IBM pivot as it has no monetizable developer ecosystem.

I personally think they should've acquired TikTok last year when TikTok was looking to be acquired by Microsoft. They probably would've extended their survival for another 10-ish years (lifecycle of a social media)

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Closi on Saturday October 30, 2021 @07:26AM (#29047939)
> I personally think they should've acquired TikTok last year when TikTok was looking to be acquired by Microsoft. They probably would've extended their survival for another 10-ish years (lifecycle of a social media)

Eh, IMO I don't think that would have worked - I suspect it would have raised too much anti-trust attention and not have been allowed.

The bigger picture is that in the UK at least, 'Meta' owns most communication channels that I use to communicate with my friends. TikTok isn't really a replacement to insta/whatsapp/Facebook, it's a replacement to Youtube.

I think Facebook is using the 'metaverse' as a metaphor to mean 'Facebook owning all forms of communication, as much as possible, both traditional messanger/audio but also extending into the real world as much as possible, and new media'. In that case, I think the metaverse is a much broader play (that nobody else can easily make, and that probably raises even more concerns!).

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by pmlnr on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:15AM (#29049419)
> 'Meta' owns most communication channels that I use to communicate with my friends

Bring them back to email, because there are still many small email providers in the UK. See https://delta.chat/en/ for email as IM.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by dicknuckle on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:36AM (#29049600)
or just use Signal. people around me have been flocking to it from WhatsApp, I even got my wife on it.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by pmlnr on Sunday October 31, 2021 @03:57PM (#29059869)
Signal is just another centralized service; email is a standard. You can self-host it, a company can make internal-only servers, etc. Signal disallows even custom clients, let alone real self-hosting.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Le_Dook on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:14AM (#29048180)
I agree, while (at least in younger people) messenger is declining, Instagram is basically the only platform you can contact everyone you known on. They want to be the major player in virtual reality communication, VR Chat for the masses. While incorporating large scale advertising into the pitch
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by qorrect on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:21AM (#29048977)
> Instagram is basically the only platform you can contact everyone you known on

Forgive my ignorance but I thought Instagram was just a place to upload random photos.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by orestarod on Sunday October 31, 2021 @05:35PM (#29060686)
It also has a chat, and for many it has become the main channel to stay in touch with each other. I'm not sure why either, I guess it's because they spend more time in the app than other messengers, so they might as well chat on it too.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Closi on Sunday October 31, 2021 @10:19AM (#29057145)
There is a whole messenger client in there - "Swapping instas" is the new "can I get your phone number" in some circles.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by JKCalhoun on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:40AM (#29049646)
> Metaverse is not bullshit. It's a sign of desperation.

Ha ha, so, in fact, bullshit.

I'm so happy someone called it out. Being a developer, tech-savvy person, I should be all into BitCoin, VR, meta ... but I have recoiled from more or less the last decade of crap (including, I might add, "social" and maybe even phones — although they are great for navigating).

Maybe I am just getting old (that is true) or maybe this is in fact a load of bullshit: just Big-Internet trying to make "meta" a thing.

Pass.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by herodotus on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:42PM (#29050129)
with you all the way...
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by HellDunkel on Saturday November 13, 2021 @09:39AM (#29210023)
same
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by parasubvert on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:15PM (#29049904)
I think this is optimistic. Oculus is winning the early rounds of the VR market war.

Google in 1998 was just another search engine. Netflix mailed DVDs. Amazon grew from $150 to 600m revenue and had just started selling music and movies.

Facebook non-ad revenue is $3b annually and growing. Oculus store and devices account for easily half or more of that number. Beat Saber on the Quest 2 alone has cracked $100m. Beat Saber!

The biggest drag on Oculus right now is the need for a Facebook account. The switch to Meta fixes this, makes Facebook just one of many properties, with an eye on the prize. It’s like Microsoft pivoting to Azure and away from Windows years before Nadella did.

Valve could step up, or Apple, or Google. But otherwise Facebook is running away with VR, and that will have a massive impact on all of us.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by emilsedgh on Saturday October 30, 2021 @03:02PM (#29051417)
> The biggest drag on Oculus right now is the need for a Facebook account.

Maybe within the tech circles and HN crowd. But outside these circles nobody even feels like something is off.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by parasubvert on Sunday October 31, 2021 @01:05AM (#29054636)
Well, what’s off is that kids are rejecting classic Facebook in favour of Snap, Tiktok or Instagram. Who wants to hang out with family members and aggrieved conservatives?
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by enneff on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:21PM (#29052740)
Nobody cares about VR.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by parasubvert on Sunday October 31, 2021 @01:07AM (#29054642)
Get off my lawn!

Reminds me of when no one cared about native mobile (vs the Web), or before that, no one cared about GUIs (command line is where it’s at)

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by enneff on Sunday October 31, 2021 @05:48PM (#29060771)
Except neither of those things are true! GUIs were tremendously exciting from the start and when Apple launched the iPhone saying “just build web apps” everyone was disappointed. How did you even think to offer those examples?
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by parasubvert on Sunday November 14, 2021 @01:01PM (#29219030)
GUIs were rejected by the vast majority from the start (which for argument let's say was 1984 for the Mac). The Mac barely cracked 9% market share through the 80s and mid-90s, shrinking to 5%. PC's and DOS dominated alongside the Commodore 64, whose 3rd party GUI (GEOS) was used by a fraction of users. The command line cult was legion.

GUIs started to catch on in 1992 with Windows 3.1, and only became ubiquitous when Windows 95 came out. At which point the Mac plummeted to 2% market share, before the iMac started to turn it around in 1998-1999.

The backlash to Steve's announcement of "web apps only" was largely from game developers and early adoption tinkerers. Native mobile was rejected by a majority of developers (who still complain even though we're down to 2 platforms) as an abomination that eschews the open standards of the web and required 3-5x the work to support Android, iOS, Windows Mobile , Nokia Symiban, Blackberry, etc.

Most "native" apps were thin wrappers around HTML5 sites until around 2012-2014. Instagram is arguably what changed this, and why Facebook bought them for $1b in 2012. Users liked the features and responsiveness of native apps. Shortly after, Facebook shipped their native mobile app (written by a 3rd party contractor that knew native mobile - it was an HTML5 wrapper prior to this).

Dozens of essays have been published on HN over the past decade lamenting the death of the Web, PCs, hobbyist PC tinkering, and all that is good, because of the terrible trend driven by native mobile.

So, yes, GUIs and native mobile were exciting from a certain point of view, but they've also had huge (and ultimately ineffective) backlashes that slowed things down a bit.

Saying "nobody cares about VR" feels to me exactly like this. Those that see how important AR/VR will become feel like those that saw the potential of GUIs or native mobile early. Those only seem obvious in retrospect.

In both cases the new UX environment took 5-10 years to catch on. We're now arguably in year 5 of VR/AR (if you assume 2016 era devices were the first viable mass market ones, which also coincides with the release of Pokemon Go as the first mass market AR experience) which is easily as big a shift as it was from keyboard to mouse.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by enneff on Sunday November 14, 2021 @07:32PM (#29222153)
Not sure where to go from here except to say I disagree with your characterisation of these events, and the events you have chosen to represent the history of these things.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by parasubvert on Saturday November 20, 2021 @12:38PM (#29290114)
Look, I’ve provided some facts and my interpretation of them, you’re obviously free to disagree. But you’ve not even provided an iota of argument about your original statement: “Nobody cares about VR”.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by tourist2d on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:44PM (#29053782)
Great contribution to the discussion!
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by dataexporter on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:09AM (#29048151)
Facebook did have a budding developer ecosystem back in late 2000s with game developers and app developers using Facebook's platform to build their businesses. While it did have tons of privacy issues and data leaks, they could have built it into a sustainable ecosystem instead of making endless changes forcing developers to leave their ecosystem.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by atribecalledqst on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:55PM (#29050253)
I remember I used to use a kanji memorization app on Facebook in the 2000s. It was pretty neat. Too bad stuff like that is gone now.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by tim333 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:28AM (#29048250)
Aw - I remember Cow Clicker. I wonder what happened to all that stuff.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by redisman on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:55AM (#29049253)
They changed the game spamming algorithms from insane to useless. It was many orders of magnitude less traffic so I’d imagine most of those games are in life support or shut down
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by edwinyzh on Sunday October 31, 2021 @12:53AM (#29054594)
I wonder that too, since I didn't watch closely nor use facebook frequently. IIRC there was a Russian company was hot since it has a bunch of popular games based on the FB platform.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by tjpnz on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:04AM (#29048128)
>Metaverse is not bullshit. It's a sign of desperation.

Or a sign that Zuckerberg's read all the popular fiction on the subject but failed to comprehend how much of it was either satirical or meant as a warning.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by deanCommie on Saturday October 30, 2021 @02:31PM (#29051166)
> Thus, they didn't go after TikTok. It was a mistake.

What are you talking about - they went after TikTok exactly the same way as they did after Snapchat: By cloning the feature and making it prominent in the app, then double-listing them in the main Big Blue App, too.

Instagram added Stories to copy Snapchat and they are still prominently at the top of the app.

Then they added Reels to copy Tik Tok and it's the primary central bottom button of the app, and also one of the first things you see in the Facebook app.

The hilarity though is that Tiktok watermarks exported videos. Vast majority of "Reels" on Instagram have Tik Tok watermarks.

They're failing to destroy Tik Tok the way they succeeded in destroying Snapchat (effectively) for a couple of reasons though:

1) Snapchat was primarily for person-to-person communication (their attempts at highlighting "creators" was always awkward. Instagram already had all the celebrities, and what grows success in "social networks" these days isn't the social graph between peers but parasocial graphs with big time creators

2) Snapchat was always technologically inferior. The quality of the photos and videos was awful. The AR filters were slow. Instagram offered higher quality and better performance. TikTok doesn't have that problem. It's blazing fast and for the kind of meme content it is best for, video quality isn't important.

3) TikTok's For You Page (FYP) recommendation algorithm is truly groundbreaking, and will be remembered in 10 years the way we remember panning around on Google Maps and not having the page reload. It is truly incredible how effectively it learns content you might be interested in after some engagement, and crafts an FYP that feels like it's speaking directly to your anxieties, sense of humor, neurosis, aspirations, goals, etc.

You can call it creepy and you can worry about how all this information about your personality is going to the Chinese government, but that's a separate issue...

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by emilsedgh on Saturday October 30, 2021 @03:06PM (#29051450)
That's exactly what Im talking about. They thought they can win this round by copying features of TikTok into Insgagram, just like they did with Snapchat.

They were wrong. They should've gone after TikTok by acquiring it. Just like they did with Instagram.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by benhurmarcel on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:22PM (#29052743)
> What's App is not monetizable

That seems shortsighted. I’m not even talking about destroying the app by adding ads or selling user data.

They could add payments between individuals, it would instantly become the default method in many countries. Expand it to pay businesses then, via QR codes like they have in China. Make sure you’re cheaper than cards and Apple/Google Pay, especially for small sums.

They could sell business accounts, and allow customers to message any business by searching them by name (without having them as a contact). Give them a url and QR code that opens a conversation directly. Develop tools for pros to efficiently handle customers. Let customers book a business directly from the app for example. Given the reach of Whatsapp in many places you’d have a lot of interested businesses.

They have a place in the phone dock of entire first-world countries, billions of people literally have the app open all day, and they can’t monetize?

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by emilsedgh on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:35PM (#29052833)
I'm sure they can find ways to monetize it but they will ever be monetized enough for Facebook's size as one of their major revenue streams. How much of Apple/Google's revenue is due to their payment systems?

When Facebook thinks of monetizing Whats App as one of their major/only assets, it needs to find a business plan that'd allow billions of dollars.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by rapiz on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:54PM (#29053836)
That's what wechat is like in China and tech folks hate it.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by dustingetz on Saturday October 30, 2021 @07:36AM (#29047989)
Facebook also has nothing better to spend the cash on – $60bn cash reserves in 2020 and revs are $120bn/yr growing at 30% y/y, what do you even do with that?
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Oddskar on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:17AM (#29049444)
I think there's an obvious answer to that question: don't focus so much on profit and ensure that the net benefit of your product for humanity is greater than it currently is.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by dicknuckle on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:39AM (#29049626)
Nah that's too obvious. MUST. MAKE. PROFIT. FOR. SHAREHOLDERS. The machine must march on and grow at all costs.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Valakas_ on Saturday October 30, 2021 @02:16PM (#29051024)
Unfortunately if we bring up 'ethics' we're the laughing stock of the room "aww he's so cute thinking about the good of humanity, what a nice guy. Anyway, as the adults were saying..."
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Yajirobe on Saturday October 30, 2021 @07:56AM (#29048084)
What is the income though? How much of that $120bn/yr is left?
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by tim333 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:38AM (#29048305)
$40bn which is still an awful lot. I can see punting on a VR metaverse could make sense if the spend is only 25% of their profits.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by rajamaka on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:11PM (#29052691)
Pay dividends
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by schleck8 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:08AM (#29047520)
> What's App is not monetizable

It is, they talked about introducing ads to the status tab before. I agree on the rest though

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by jillesvangurp on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:48AM (#29047729)
The second they turn that on, Signal and Telegram will get an even larger influx of users than they got last year when the FB lawyers tried to weasel in some language enabling that and some other features in the Whatsapp terms of use.

I still have not agreed to the terms of use since I continue to be able to opt out and am amused by FB basically chickening out requiring their users to actually agree. The normal course of action would be to eventually block access to the app. That hasn't happened.

So, they could turn on ads but then they'd have to get me to agree to that first or risk losing me. They really want to do that but at the same time they are afraid of what will happen.

In the same way they chickened out of their blockchain plans by simply not talking about it anymore. The Meta announcements featured a large absence of any of that. Which basically means they are probably giving up on the whole notion.

I'm guessing Meta might turn out to be more of the same. FB is struggling to come up with things that actually work. A lot of their efforts just fizzle out. Facebook bots kind of never happened. Payments are dead in the water. They threw out the baby with the bathwater when they had an actual gaming platform with gamers on facebook and shutdown the platform in favor of a glorified ad platform.

Actually a good plan for them would be to rewind fifteen years of bad decision making. Of course that would require getting rid of the chief decision maker.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by names_are_hard on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:42PM (#29050124)
> I still have not agreed to the terms of use since I continue to be able to opt out and am amused by FB basically chickening out requiring their users to actually agree. The normal course of action would be to eventually block access to the app. That hasn't happened.

Me too. Every couple of weeks they show me a popup asking me to accept the new terms and I just click the x and continue about my day. At first they were threatening me that I'd lose access to the app by some date but that date passed months ago and I still have access. I'm amused because I feel like I called their bluff and it turns out they're not as confident as they make themselves out to be. One day they'll probably block me but until then...shrug.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by ushakov on Sunday October 31, 2021 @05:52PM (#29060797)
But Telegram is testing its ad-platform as we’re speaking
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by Griffinsauce on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:43PM (#29050731)
The only thing whatsapp has going for it right now are network effects and the low friction of getting less-technically-inclined users to install a new app.

Something like that that has no benefit to users is an absolute death warrant for them. The other apps only need to reach a tipping point and they will be absolute dead in the water, they're already creeping up.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by orasis on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:45AM (#29049685)
Sorry, have you seen their profits? Facebook is not going away any time soon.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by short12 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:13PM (#29053656)
They wouldn't be the first high power and highly profitable tech company to fade away...
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by emilsedgh on Saturday October 30, 2021 @03:04PM (#29051439)
I know it's not. Im talking about long term survival. They are gonna be like Yahoo: Years in decline. Except a little worse. Yahoo was incredibly diverse.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by SergeAx on Monday November 01, 2021 @02:17PM (#29070669)
I don't think it is a good idea to go after TikTok. TikTok is a massive waste of cash without any viable way to profits and under a constant threat of being banned by US or China authorities. And already banned in India.

By the way, a hefty portion of that cash was pocketed by Facebook and Instagram.

Facebook's deathbed is gold laden. Ads targeted to 45+ users are 2-3 times more expensive than ads for 16-25. By the way, ads targeted to 30+ women (hello, Instagram!) are even more expensive.

Re:The metaverse is bullshit by 13415 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @12:38PM (#29050099)
Whatsapp is monetizable. They're tapping into the almost realtime conversations of a billion users, their images and videos. They can extract a ton of information from that to sell to advertisers. And unlike Facebook, Whatsapp is still used actively,
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by tsimionescu on Saturday October 30, 2021 @03:03PM (#29051420)
The money are coming from the FB app/site though, trying to sell ads in WA would probably kill it.
Re:The metaverse is bullshit by __jerbl on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:53AM (#29047764)
this.