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Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by RobLach on Sunday October 24, 2021 @01:28AM (#28975228)
Homelessness is a solved problem.

SF residents don't want the solution.

Real estate is the primary wealth building asset class of long-term residents who bought property ages ago or inherited it.

In California property taxes as assessed at time of sale, so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands.

Bulldozing a single family home to build a multi-family unit has an enormous cost on the back end given re-assessment.

Any potential drop in property values has massive protest. It's such a nice free-ride you will fight tooth and nail for.

These residents just want the homeless population "dealt with".

The only solution viable for these residents is getting rid of homeless people through force.

This in untenable give that these residents also have internalized a set of liberal moral values, which mostly means alleviating guilt by dumping money onto ineffective non-profit organization who at worst are siphoning public funds for themselves or at best are trying their best at executing strategies which have minimal impact.

Consider that between 2010 and 2020, SF built ~25,000 new housing units.

Charlotte, NC, a city with a lower population, built 160,000 new units.

Norway has homeless population of 0.07% by mostly doing one thing: building and giving homes to people who don't have them.

That would cause property values to plummet. Many long-term residents would have to seek employment after a lifetime of living off rents.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by sien on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:37AM (#28975446)
Sleeping Rough and not affording homes are related. The Bay Area definitely needs to build more houses.

However, in San Fransicko and in other places it is pointed out that New York City, that also has astronomical housing prices and also doesn't build enough, has a fraction of the people sleeping rough that SF does.

NYC has lots of temporary shelter for people who are homeless. SF doesn't have enough.

From https://medium.com/@josefow/new-york-decided-to-end-street-h...

"New York has an extensive shelter network with over 748 locations that house more than 62,000 individuals and families experiencing homelessness every night. This extensive network means New York has an unsheltered homeless rate of 45 per 100,000 residents¹. San Francisco’s rate is 492 per 100,000 residents², almost 11 times as high."

"San Francisco, despite a shelter waiting list of more than 1,000 people, has fewer shelter beds than it did in 2004."

I'm most of the way through San Fransicko and would thoroughly recommend the book. It also does mention NIMBYs and YIMBYs but the focus is on the way that SF and other West Coast US cities have dealt very poorly with homeless people while NYC and other cities in the East have dealt much better with the problem.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by crate_barre on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:30AM (#28976247)
NYC has winters, it’s not temperate all year round. Think about all the poor people that would freeze to death in places like India or SF - if they had winters like the northeast). Warmer places will have the temperature to sustain a homeless population.

NYC, prior to our current Democratic mayor, had aggressive law enforcement during Giuliani and Bloomberg terms. They would corral the homeless into specific areas (the poor neighborhoods) and push them out of sight (actual strategy to hide the homeless). You can be homeless in NYC, just not around areas where ‘decent’ folk live. Interpret that however you want.

If SF corralled the homeless to the ghettos, no one would notice.

Overall, if we take a census of the homeless, we’d easily learn that a good percentage of them are mentally ill and/or drug addicts. It’s much cheaper to build tents for them than provide institutional treatment (prolonged stay in clinics and mental health wards of hospitals). Generally these hospitals don’t have enough beds for everyone and constantly try to release everyone within 72 hours, no matter how severe the situation is. Plus, the cost of healthcare is immense (I’d say orders of magnitude over the tent housing solution).

These are forsaken people, we will never solve this. I would recommend SF hide their homeless and get them off the beaches and boardwalks, and put the tents out of sight somewhere desolate. We as a society don’t have a sustainable altruism to succeed here.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by thoughtstheseus on Sunday October 24, 2021 @10:10AM (#28978053)
We need better communities.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by legutierr on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:36AM (#28976962)
It's not only that north-eastern winters are brutal. There's more to it than that.

Yes, NYC housing is very expensive, but that's because Manhattan is the most densely populated island in the world having a population greater than 150,000 people. Yes, you can squeeze a few more people into NYC proper, but there are physical limits that cannot be overcome, and New York is as close to those physical limits as anywhere else in the world.

The New York metro area does not have those same physical limits, and is much more dynamic than California with regards to new construction and real estate sales—at all pricing levels—as a result. Yes, as you get closer to Manhattan things get more expensive. But Manhattan is not the only housing option for people—even for people who don't own a car.

I live and work in a town of ~25,000 people that is connected to Manhattan by rail. In the past few years we have seen several hundred rental units be constructed in the center of the town. This is not atypical. Similar buildings have been going up throughout the region for years (although most affordable options are connected by bus rather than by train).

I have to agree with GP's conclusion that California's problems primarily stem from its tax system—which is objectively ridiculous. If every time you move houses your tax rate resets and suddenly you are paying 10x (or more) in taxes than you did previously, why would you ever sell?

In the NYC metro area, most of the people who in California would be suburban NIMBY types live and work in high-property-tax areas in relatively big homes while they raise their kids and send them to public school (which are well-funded by high property taxes). It is very common that when their kids go to college they sell their homes and move to smaller places (or to, say, Florida). They are incentivized to do this because doing so will lower their tax bill. As a result, the real estate market is very liquid, with most homes turning over every 15 to 30 years.

In California the tax system works in the opposite manner, by disincentivizing sales. Even inherited property isn't sold, because doing so would result in a reduction in the net cash flow that the property can yield. Isn't it the case that most heirs typically sell property they inherit, in order to have access to liquid funds that they can use in a manner that is more consistent with their own personal needs and preferences? Not in California! In California, if you inherit a house, suddenly you are a landlord.

None of this is to say that there isn't political resistance to higher-density housing in the northeast. There certainly is. However, the way that this resistance is typically mobilized is through the use of zoning restrictions. Zoning restrictions can be amended—and have been amended—as the need for housing has grown.

If people are not willing to sell their properties—if the real estate market is not liquid enough in a certain area—then new development will not occur, regardless as to whether or not zoning ordinances are changed. In fact, the primary advocates for zoning changes are often developers who want to build specific projects. If there are enough properties for sale in an area to attract the interest of developers (and capital that legacy owners may not have access to), then it is more likely that there will be effective advocacy on a local level to amend zoning rules that will result in a more profitable use of those properties.

If no one is selling, however, and if no one is buying, then no one has any interest in changing anything with regards to how the land is used.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by shalmanese on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:57AM (#28977101)
> Yes, you can squeeze a few more people into NYC proper, but there are physical limits that cannot be overcome, and New York is as close to those physical limits as anywhere else in the world.

There were more people living in Manhattan in 1920 than 2020 and the average building height was higher then too.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by legutierr on Sunday October 24, 2021 @11:58AM (#28979115)
> There were more people living in Manhattan in 1920 than 2020

I didn't know that, but it makes sense, given the immigration and building patterns of the era. There were even more people living in Manhattan in 1910 than in 1920 (over 600,000 more than today).

I'm not sure if this does anything except support the point I am making, though. Can more people be squeezed into Manhattan than are currently living there? Sure. You might not even need to bring back the squalid tenement buildings.

But isn't the primary reason that there are fewer people living in Manhattan today because they tore down the tenements in order to build office towers? Although only 1.6 million people live in Manhattan, during the work day the population swells to almost 4 million when you account for commuting workers.

> and the average building height was higher then too.

I am honestly surprised to read this, and I have trouble believing that it is true. Do you have a source for this?

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by 1986 on Sunday October 24, 2021 @11:32AM (#28978845)
In 1910 the majority of Manhattan's area was not yet built out, and people in the Lower East Side were living in brutally overcrowded tenements with an average of less than 100sqft per person, that shouldn't be the goal.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by xtiansimon on Monday October 25, 2021 @09:01AM (#28987271)
“I have to agree with GP's conclusion that California's problems primarily stem from its tax system”

I live on Long Island where there are no property tax controls like California.

They’re building ‘luxury’ 1-3 br condos 750k-2,700k . No downward pressure on home costs here.

My town has lots of working class families, and many move when their children are grown and they reach retirement, because the taxes are so high. Right when you own your home, and your income is fixed, you’re faced with ever increasing taxes.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by snidane on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:48AM (#28977047)
Needing to build more houses is a myth pushed forward by nimbys and developers.

You can achieve the same and more by releasing unused housing back to market instead of sitting idle for speculative reasons.

Increasing property taxes seems like a first viable solution, but it has drawbacks. It can apparently br avoided in some cases and they wouldn't affect owners of empty lots or derelict ruins that need the release back to market the most.

This is solved by a tax on land value, not on propery value. Empty unused lots would get a massive tax, regardless of if there is a skyscraper on it or it is an empty space. High rise properties wouldn't get impacted much because the same tax would be amortized across many units. Properties outside of cities wouldn't get affected much, because land values outside of cities are low.

Land value tax is a mechanically brutally simple and effective solution to the problem of congestion in city centres. Politically completely infeasible, because if there is someone fighting tooth and nail against such policies, it is the nimbys who inherited at the right time - modern day aristocracy.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by ppsreejith on Sunday October 24, 2021 @03:08PM (#28980943)
Wouldn't the ultimate effect of land value taxes be to build more housing? (since that's how we can extract the most value out of land for a given tax)
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by rsj_hn on Sunday October 24, 2021 @03:22PM (#28981050)
Yes, but it's not clear how much. One of the biggest, most important insights you can have about economics - and even all social orgnization - is that while there is a subset of people who exploit economic opportunities and do things like maximize revenue, the vast majority do not.

Even though there isn't a lot of free money to be had, that's because a small subset are grabbing the free money, not because everyone is grabbing it. Most don't grab it. Most just don't think about stuff like that and make terrible financial choices. That includes your local restaurant as much as your neighbor.

Thus businesses are efficient to the degree that competition forces them to be efficient. No more. Now in some industries, a few businesses that are really well run are able to take so much marketshare that they became huge megafirms. That happens with tradeables, but much less with restaurants, and much much less with landlords. That is why franchise chains and big property management groups are so successful -- they are so much better run and more professional than the typical small time landlord or family owned restaurant.

Btw, this is really the fatal flaw of communism and other communitarian economic approaches. It's not that the economic calculation problem is too hard -- yes, it's hard but you can get a good enough solution with linear programming approaches. But rather, there was no capital market that would remove capital from inefficient firms and give capital to new rivals. Look at Tesla's market cap and compare to the market cap of GM. In a planned economy, there are no Teslas, there is no force pressuring firms to maximize outputs per quantity of input, or to create products that appeal to people. All of that comes from competition and market pressure. Thus a capitalist economy with all products sold by monopolies devolves into a planned economy. But each house is a little monopoly.

So in those areas that are unconstrained, landlords can be driven out of business to some extent. In constrained areas, they cannot. So many stories of cat ladies sitting on huge mansions, slowly letting the mansions rot. Most of the housing stock in SF has water damage due to landlords not doing basic maintenance to protect their investment. This is because there is no one to drive them out of business.

Now the idea of a property tax is that a high tax rate will force them to put the property into good use or at least sell it to someone else who will. But for that to happen at scale, the tax rates would need to be pretty high - higher than is politically feasible. High enough so that you feel like you are only renting the land from the government, rather than owning it, which really takes away autonomy from all but the very rich.

Thus it will have a positive effect for more efficient land use, but that effect is very small unless those taxes are really high.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by naveen99 on Sunday October 31, 2021 @08:48PM (#29061968)
Agreed. It’s another reason to not complain about income and wealth taxes either if you are good at capital allocation and business in general. taxes drive people who aren’t good at business out of business faster. they take Capital away from people who can’t grow it away faster… paradoxically taxes are supposed to take from the rich and give to the poor, but this way, the rich who are rich not by accident, but by Skill, benefit more from taxes relative to their competitors.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by notfromhere on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:52PM (#28980827)
At some point you literally just need more houses. The Bay Area grew by a million people while still being pretty low density.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by freyir on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:33AM (#28975433)
San Francisco already has among the highest number of people placed in supportive housing per capita of any city in the country. How many more people need to be placed in supportive housing in San Francisco before this problem is solved?

If homes are abundant in Charlotte, why do so many homeless people live on the streets in San Francisco instead, where there’s not even sufficient housing to support working middle class families?

When Newsom tried this approach as mayor, his conclusion was that for every homeless person they put into housing, two more would show up the street. And over 90% of the chronically homeless placed in supportive housing there never move out. So what percentage of the nation’s chronically homeless population can be housed indefinitely at taxpayer expense on a tiny landlocked peninsula where seemingly everyone wants to live? This has become a statewide/nationwide problem and it needs solutions on a bigger scale than one city in isolation can provide.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by vkou on Sunday October 24, 2021 @04:42AM (#28975991)
> San Francisco already has among the highest number of people placed in supportive housing per capita of any city in the country.

Is it actually higher in SF than in NYC?

> When Newsom tried this approach as mayor, his conclusion was that for every homeless person they put into housing, two more would show up the street.

This is a fascinating idea. Does this mean that kicking one person out of housing somehow remove two from the street?

Or could it mean that three people end up homeless in the time that it takes to house one homeless person?

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by zemvpferreira on Sunday October 24, 2021 @06:06AM (#28976439)
If I remember correctly from my time there many of SF's homeless are migrants: they're not people who lived in SF and became destitute, but people who moved in/were moved (tales of cities putting homeless en masse on Greyhounds to SF abound) from places with worse weather and economies.

In that sense I understand Newsom's position: if homeless are already migrating from all over the US due to life being easier in San Francisco, it might only get worse in the city if conditions improve for individuals. It sucks, but we can't expect SF to solve America's homeless problem alone.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by vlovich123 on Sunday October 24, 2021 @06:24AM (#28976553)
Hmmm… I‘ve heard conflicting sources on this and that studies show that SF homeless don’t have a higher degree of having moved from elsewhere. The vast majority has been here a considerable amount of time. Maybe I’m misremembering though.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by zemvpferreira on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:27AM (#28976903)
Pulling a 2019 source from wikipedia, over 30% of San Francisco's homeless recently came from outside San Francisco, and only 50% had lived in San Francisco longer than 10 years before most recently becoming homeless:

https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019HIRDRep...

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by vlovich123 on Sunday October 24, 2021 @09:23AM (#28977664)
That seems like a far cry from the exponential growth described where you house one homeless person and 2 appear.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by new_realist on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:16PM (#28979299)
They’re not incompatible statements. The easier it is to be homeless, the more homeless you get. That’s different from where they come from.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by vlovich123 on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:42PM (#28979553)
Not sure I follow. If the homeless aren't coming from elsewhere, then the "ease" would have to be that people on the margins would be choosing to be homeless instead. However, if that's the case, then why would NYC be immune to this effect? After all, they have way more shelters than SF, rents are just as sky high, and SF residents typically have a higher income than their NYC counterparts meaning there should be fewer people at the margins.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by vkou on Sunday October 24, 2021 @01:52PM (#28980291)
Or maybe the easier it is to end up homeless, the more homeless you get.

Between wages and housing costs, it's unclear to me how ~half of SF isn't homeless.

I'm not sure people whose goal in life is living in a tent under the freeway exist in any significant numbers outside of the imagination of libertarians.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by taurath on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:19AM (#28976189)
One of the solutions they’re trying now is for the state to give development quotas to municipalities, and threaten to break up single family zoning areas if not.

That it’s such a huge issue in 2 separate massive municipalities makes me agree - it’s a problem that needs solutions at a higher level (often by forcing lower levels to do what is necessary)

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by inglor_cz on Sunday October 24, 2021 @04:56AM (#28976052)
Norway has 5 million people in total, and used to be very homogeneous. I think it was Robert Putnam who showed that with increasing diversity, you will get less solidarity and openness/trust towards strangers.

Homelessness may be a solved problem in Norway, but it does not mean that Norwegian solution is readily transplantable into San Francisco. Much like we failed to transplant modern way of life to Afghanistan.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:05AM (#28976754)
> Much like we failed to transplant modern way of life to Afghanistan.

Which attempt are you talking about. The 3 times the British empire invaded, the three times the Soviet Union invaded or the latest Nato-American invasion.

(Historically there was the Sikh, Mugal, Muslim invasions too, etc. etc.)

Possibly the locals got a poor view of western "civilization" by being on the wrong end of its armies multiple times.

Strangely, I agree with your general point, but possibly from the opposite direction.

For example, when Finland was doing its equivalent of the New Deal, I find it unlikely there were any Finn's that would try to use that as political leverage to delay anti-lynching laws and vice-versa.

Racists seem to be one of the most corrosively self-defeating forces in human society.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by saargrin on Monday October 25, 2021 @03:34AM (#28985304)
Regarding Afghanistan, you forget to mention that part of history where Afghanis raided and conquered large parts of what is now India (the Durani empire and Babur come to mind) , not to mention raiding into Persia and Merv

Its hard to pretend Afghanis' view of "civilization" was formed by the British "invasion" which was not permanent

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by ZeroGravitas on Monday October 25, 2021 @08:15AM (#28986915)
Excellent additional detail, but not sure how it interacts with my point?

I think someone invading you (3 times) is highly likely to give you an opinion about them and their ideals, even if they fail, but maybe the Afghanis are a bit more "forgive and forget" than most.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by throwaway313313 on Sunday October 24, 2021 @03:18AM (#28975612)
All organisms or systems that can grow have limits.

In biology, this is typically either the ability to eat or the ability to eliminate waste.

A city will always reach a limit. It could be water, transportation infrastructure, economically viable activities given the location, etc, or if you are lucky as a result of the location being desirable, physical space.

You can't build your way out of the San Francisco affordability issue even if you (for example) double the aid per homeless person and double the free housing.

There is an error in the common thinking about the homeless problem in San Francisco.

San Francisco has a homeless problem because it's affluent and provides services, not despite being affluent and providing services.

If San Francisco wanted to provide assisted living for members of society that can't support themselves, it would get the most bang for it's buck to provide food, shelter, clean bathrooms, trash services, electricity, and wifi in other willing cities in California. You could build a range of accommodations and shelters, all the way from campsites to cabins to resorts, and you could get user feedback from the residents to determine which operators to expand with and which facilities to shut down.

The idea of trying to build your way out of homeless problem in the most expensive and physically constrained city in California is madness. That's just enriching the interests that have become the San Francisco homeless industrial complex.

Article: "S.F. pays $61,000 a year for one tent in a site to shelter the homeless. Why?"

https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/S-F-pays-61-000-a-...

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by rsj_hn on Sunday October 24, 2021 @10:57PM (#28984080)
So SF will now be giving away houses, huh? OK, I'll take a free home in SF, sure.

But not to the middle class, no, just to the homeless. Then how many days do I need to survive on the street in order to get a free house? If it's a hundred days, and one of these places is 800K, then that's like paying me 8K per day -- it's a no brainer. For a free house, I'm even willing to mutter to myself and defecate on your porch. You are right, this would cause property values to plummet -- it's literally paying me to come into your neighborhood and be antisocial.

Just give me the date and time of the degradation olympics and there will be lots of people willing to participate. More people than SF can afford to build houses for.

You get more of what you subsidize, not less.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by alexashka on Sunday October 24, 2021 @03:32AM (#28975658)
You've given this some thought.

What I don't understand is why you think cities should provide shelter for people who don't contribute to them.

If you can't make a city a better place - you should have shelter, somewhere cheap and distant. If you get your life together there, you can come and try living in a city again.

Living in a city should be a privilege, not a right - cities take a lot of work and if you aren't doing your part - it's ok and you should live with dignity and respect (because we have plenty of food and electricity to go around, for now), but you don't get to live off of other people's efforts by insisting that you get to stay in a city because you were born in one or whatever.

Cities are like night clubs, if you don't get the ratio of men to women right, the night club sucks. The same applies to productive and unproductive citizens.

Just because we can let anyone into a night club, doesn't mean it won't make it suck for everyone involved.

Following the night club analogy, what needs to happen is we need to lower the barrier to opening up new night clubs. There is no reason why we can't build new towns that make use of modern technology that people would flock to - it is not a resource issue, it is an imagination, competence and regulation issue (implementing land value tax to get rid of rent seeking on land), much like everything else in human society.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by RobLach on Sunday October 24, 2021 @03:51AM (#28975735)
Because it’s cheaper in the long term, not even considering the social/humanitarian benefits.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by alexashka on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:15PM (#28981999)
If we're going to go off of what's cheaper, converting homeless people into fertilizer seems best.

There are no social benefits to forcing productive members of society to quietly tolerate and provide for unproductive members. It fosters resentment and tension.

You see, 'social' includes everyone, not just those we re-allocate someone else's resources towards. There's this stupid idea that if someone's a 'victim', they deserve special treatment. No, that's not an axiom. It is only an axiom if you're stupid and haven't gone out of your way to ever really try and 'help' 'victims' - those that have, quickly realize what a bottomless pit it often is.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by oezi on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:42AM (#28977005)
I don't think that is such a good idea. Some countries have the right to living anywhere in a country written in their constitution.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:21AM (#28976864)
Once you recognize this problem, it can be solved by grandfathering people in, basically paying off the people who used to benefit so that the rules can be changed to be fairer in the future.

This feels a bit icky but is a recurring pattern. For example, when slaves were emancipated the previous owners were often compensated, because if not they would politically block it happening.

I feel it's going to get to a crunch in some places before people do anything about it but various places will start adopting variants of this to deflate the bubble.

Basically passing some of the land value tax onto the lucky current property owners as an annuity, and allowing them to move somewhere cheaper and decouple safely from the local property market.

Probably needs enough of a threat that they'll just be forced to pay the full tax before they'll cave though, so it's just politics at that point. Who has more power and/or propaganda will decide the outcome.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by sleepysysadmin on Monday October 25, 2021 @08:12AM (#28986899)
>Homelessness is a solved problem.

It is but I can 100% confirm that nobody in cali wants to solve that problem.

>The only solution viable for these residents is getting rid of homeless people through force.

This solution isn't viable neither. The Cali government policy(ies) is increasing the rate of homelessness. Even if you were to round them all up and send all homeless out of the state, it isn't viably going to solve the problem.

>This in untenable give that these residents also have internalized a set of liberal moral values, which mostly means alleviating guilt by dumping money onto ineffective non-profit organization who at worst are siphoning public funds for themselves or at best are trying their best at executing strategies which have minimal impact.

It's worse than that. You might expect there's some benefit there but this mechanism itself is actually making the situation worse. Though it's certainly not popular to discuss that direction. Afterall what you're saying is road to hell is paved with good intentions.

>Norway has homeless population of 0.07% by mostly doing one thing: building and giving homes to people who don't have them.

Not quite accurate, they dont give away free homes. It's more like bomb shelters and such that the homeless can live in, but even that'snot quite accurate. The sole reason Norway has practically no homeless is because they have no actual minimum wage.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by bojangleslover on Sunday October 24, 2021 @03:37AM (#28975675)
The blow to property values would be lessened though by the fact that you don't have to see "homelessness" every time you eat at an outdoor restaurant or walk your dog.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by taurath on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:22AM (#28976205)
Politically it seems impossible though, because the hit will always be avoided by those with the most power
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by jjav on Sunday October 24, 2021 @04:48AM (#28976016)
> Charlotte, NC, a city with a lower population, built 160,000 new units.

Charlotte, NC also has way more open space to expand than SF, which has none, surrounded by water on three sides and other cities to the south.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by Kye on Sunday October 24, 2021 @08:24AM (#28977252)
I hear up is the hot new dimension in other places that hit the same barrier.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by thaumasiotes on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:55AM (#28977089)
If only there were a third dimension of space.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by lazide on Sunday October 24, 2021 @10:35AM (#28978294)
Do you have any links for the homelessness is a solved problem claim? While I’ve seen societies that have reduced the problem, I haven’t seen any that have solved the problem - at least if they are bigger than ‘toy’ populations.

Plenty of places pretending they solved the problem by shipping people to jail or similar if they refuse to live somewhere the authorities demand they do.

That said, SF is pretty much a poster child for almost worst case homelessness (and if adjusted by regional per capita income may legitimately be the worst).

I guess part of the difficulty is what exactly the definition of ‘the problem’ in ‘the homeless problem’ means seems to vary a lot by person, and most of the plans or influence here are coming from people who are quite explicitly not homeless, which is the group being ‘helped’. Which sets up some serious moral hazards.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by homo_ergaster on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:36PM (#28979493)
Finland’s recent policies are a good example https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-for-janua...
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by lazide on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:59PM (#28979738)
That is definitely not evidence of the claim?
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by homo_ergaster on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:02PM (#29005537)
How is it not? They solved homelessness
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by lazide on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:01PM (#29016743)
1) that is a political news piece (not anything rigorous) written in Canada for Canada that is breathless about victory in Finland, and where the primary source appears to be the primary political activist for the policies in Finland. Aka, good luck getting a solid idea of real trade offs or problems. When you read it there is almost no actual data. Where the head political advocate for the policy provides some data, it shows progress, but as quoted, not victory or a solution, see

“ A lot of progress has been made. We now have the lowest number of homeless. Our present government has decided that the rest of the homeless should be halved within the next four years and completely end by 2027”

So we’d need 5 years before even the most gang busters assessment could say if it was solved or not. And it seems to be because it was decided, not because that is what projections show will happen? So if the last 10% don’t co-operate, then what?

2) Finland has only 5.5 million people in a massive land area, and one of the lowest population densities in the world. They also are remarkably ethnically consistent. They also have a incredibly hostile climate that will strongly discourage (or outright kill in the first month of winter) anyone who is unsheltered homeless. They also have socialized medicine. They are also very wealthy because of natural resources which almost no other country has.

For comparison, the San Francisco Bay Area discussed earlier on it’s own has approximately 50% larger population than all of Finland all on it’s own in only 5% of the land area, and none of those other factors helping (add scare quotes depending on the factor).

That is pretty much the definition of a ‘toy population’ in this case, and even they aren’t saying it’s actually solved in that case yet, just that it totally will be at some point in the future.

While I think SF advocates have stopped trying to claim victory is possible or they’ll have it under control at some point in the future, there was a time that is what they said too.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by homo_ergaster on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:43PM (#29017331)
1) Cleary the policy is massively successful and the trends are pointing towards it being solved in the next few years. I don’t read Finnish so I can’t provide a better source, but you could probably find one looking online if you don’t like the Guardian

2) Low population density seems like something that would make solving homelessness harder, not easier, as you seem to suggest. I don’t see how ethnic homogeneity has anything to do with this but I’d be interested in hearing why you think it does. I agree that a strong social safety net helps a lot with this problem and we need it in the US also. Your assertion that a smaller population makes the problem easier doesn’t make sense. Less housing needs to be built but the Finnish government also has much fewer resources than the US.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by lazide on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:05PM (#29018425)
Well, clearly the person and government in charge of getting it started thinks it is massively successful? I don’t have data to contradict or support otherwise, but lots of folks in those positions say things are great when they don’t look good on the ground.

Regarding your other questions - Smaller populations are much easier to work with, and organizations that are working with them are easier to manage to a high quality. Socio-Religo-Ethno consistent groups also tend to be aligned more consistently on cultural values and behaviors among individuals, which allows doing interventions or even understanding patterns of problems is easier and more doable. There is also less ‘us vs them’ and more ‘we’ involved. So fewer diametrically opposed factions, less infighting, less corruption of core social infrastructure, less jockeying for position vs other factions required. The set of stakeholders is fundamentally lower and easier to deal with. For a counter example, see Lebanon, Bosnia-Herzegovina, etc.

Low population density is also a huge help with any sort of homelessness issue because there is little to no pressure on housing availability. If someone previously owned a house and lived there, as long as it didn’t burn down, buying out any loan (going to be a smaller amount) is just as effective as anything else probably because 1) it’s not going to be a huge amount of money, 2) there won’t be as much moral hazard as there would be in a less cohesive and higher density location as it’s less money, and the neighbors all know you and there is an incentive to not abuse it, 3) no one is moving in to just take a house and then doing whatever with no connection to the land or the area or the culture before hand.

And also since it’s a smaller population, your overall number of folks being involved is much smaller, and there are fewer really problematic outliers.

Also because of the smaller population, more homogenous groups, and stronger ethnic identity, it’s not as likely someone is going to be able to even start throwing wrenches in the works for whatever disingenuous reason like happens here in the cities very often. Judges would just go ‘what are you doing, get out’ if someone tries.

Here, it would tie the agencies involved or property owners up for years or decades.

Does that answer your question?

It’s also why New Zealand was able to stop Covid coming in (for awhile) and others couldn’t, that and a lot of ocean. There was strong buy-in across the population, and a consistent set of values folks could agree on and feel like they were working together with others on.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by homo_ergaster on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:30PM (#29019867)
I can’t really tell if you’re saying it’s not possible to solve homelessness by giving people homes or if doing that is politically difficult. I would agree very much that it’s politically difficult to do, but a solution being politically difficult doesn’t make the problem unsolved. Especially considering there are governments that have acted to solve the problem in this way and seen positive results. Im not talking about what policies are easy to get passed, I’m saying there’s no reason what Finland did couldn’t be repeated in a larger country with vastly more resources other than lack of political will.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by MrWiffles on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @03:22PM (#29005001)
> Consider that between 2010 and 2020, SF built ~25,000 new housing units. > > Charlotte, NC, a city with a lower population, built 160,000 new units.

Could you tell me where you got your data on this? Not because I want to pick it apart, but because I'm in the process of figuring out where I want to live long-term now that I've decided to leave Texas for good, and rate of new home construction is one of the data parameters I'm looking at in hopes that it'll be at least one positive indicator of realistic housing costs in the area.

I'm looking at TONS of other factors as well, but this is a critical one since housing is by far the most expensive line item in any family or individual budget these days. Thanks!

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by bojangleslover on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:45AM (#28977030)
I live in Charlotte and we have a big, growing cluster of tents as well as rising "homelessness" in other areas of downtown as well. The other day, more than half of people I saw walking on the streets were in a bad way.

So I don't think the extra space and houses is doing much.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by JeremyNT on Sunday October 24, 2021 @10:12AM (#28978071)
We should certainly subsidize the building of homes and give them to the homeless (or at least make them very affordable).

Can you link to the details of the program in Charlotte?

As somebody who is from NC, most home building is driven by for profit developers and it actually increases demand. They target higher end construction since the margins are higher. This is a feedback loop since the increased density of wealthy residents results in areas gaining even more amenities that the higher density will support, and thus becoming more attractive places to move for people in higher col areas out of state.

Building wealth by ensuring new units end up in the hands of low income people is a wonderful idea, but around here it seems to be the opposite occurring.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by kentonv on Sunday October 24, 2021 @11:16AM (#28978676)
> most home building... actually increases demand.

Is there data supporting this claim? It seems quite extraordinary that supply would create more demand than it satisfies. That's just not how economics usually works.

If affluent people from around the country are moving to Charlotte, I would think they're likely drawn by other factors, such as their jobs or family roots bringing them there, not by the mere existence of fancy housing and gentrified neighborhoods. If the new development didn't exist, those people would still be moving but would end up choosing slightly lower-end housing -- forcing up the prices and thus forcing out existing residents.

This "making fancy houses only increases home prices" argument seems like a rationalization invented by people who are looking for a reason to block such development. It seems highly unlikely to me that this would actually be true.

Politically, it's easy to be angry at developers for only building high-end housing, when it seems like the real problems are at the low end of the market. However, in reality, you can't expect it to be any other way -- and that's OK, because building high-end homes actually does help the low end of the market too.

New construction is inherently high-end. It's actually hard to build a new house or apartment building that isn't desirable to affluent people -- you'd have to go out of your way to use old design standards and bad materials that don't cost any less but make the home less desirable. This isn't economically viable for developers. So of course developers are always going to target mid-to-high end.

But that's fine, because when you build more high-end housing, then people move up from slightly lesser housing, making that housing available for people to move up to from even lower-end housing, and so on. This eventually makes housing available at the low end of the market for people who couldn't previously afford housing at all -- or perhaps for the government to rent on behalf of homeless people at an acceptable cost.

San Francisco is bizarrely full of terrible 100+-year-old apartments with high-income techies living in them, just because there's nowhere else for them to live. This is a failure. That should be low-end housing, but it's not because there's not enough high-end housing for all the affluent people.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by JeremyNT on Sunday October 24, 2021 @11:40AM (#28978938)
> But that's fine, because when you build more high-end housing, then people move up from slightly lesser housing, making that housing available for people to move up to from even lower-end housing, and so on. This eventually makes housing available at the low end of the market for people who couldn't previously afford housing at all -- or perhaps for the government to rent on behalf of homeless people at an acceptable cost.

This doesn't happen here in the South. I'm aware things are different elsewhere.

What happens is that the historical small / older single family units (i.e. ~50-100 y.o., 1500 SF) are demolished one by one to make room for the highest end housing that can be sold. This occurs across the board. You have teardowns of recently renovated houses that are replaced either by multiple copies of "tall skinny" units (larger size, and upfitted with all the granite etc) or, if the lot can't be carved (or if the area is especially high end) you end up with mega-houses that take on the entire footprint of the lot and go for well over $1M

In all cases the new units go for multiple times what the old house would have gone for a few years ago.

I know why people want to live in places like this. As the density increases amenities are added that make it walkable and pleasant. Now grocery stores can be supported, coffee shops, breweries, etc., which are close enough either to walk to or a short drive. These are the sorts of businesses wealthy out of staters crave. They were not supported by lower income, less dense single family housing.

The roads in these older neighborhoods are ill prepared for increased density, and of course traffic bottles up. This makes it even more imperative that, if you work in a physical office and desire a short-ish commute, you need to buy expensive units that are centrally located. Remote working white-collar and tech workers (with full pockets from selling their homes in even higher value areas) move near the city centers even though they don't have to commute anywhere simply because they want the amenities involved.

Wages for "normal" people who grew up in the region, meanwhile, stagnate. Places that are near the physical locations they go to work are now occupied by wealthy out-of-towners. For locals without the means, they are increasingly pushed to the outer limits of the sprawl, which develops in increasingly distant rings around the urban centers. Commute times start to become stratospheric.

Southern cities almost universally hate public transit, so the congestion builds upon itself, making the QOL consistently worse for the people forced to move further and further out.

I don't have data about how adding more housing designed for rich people enhances this cycle, but I bet you have no data on how adding more housing designed for rich people will do anything to mitigate it, either.

More units are good theoretically, but almost universally people latch onto the deregulation component and fail to advocate for affordability requirements tied to it. If one out of every four "tall skinny" houses was made available at well under market rate to local, low income renters (think something like Habitat for Humanity) then maybe you start getting somewhere.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by kentonv on Sunday October 24, 2021 @12:24PM (#28979374)
If one older unit is being replaced by multiple newer units, that's still a net increase in housing which will cause other old units to become more affordable. Again, it's expected that new developments will always be high-end, but they make other existing housing cheaper in the process.

> The roads in these older neighborhoods are ill prepared for increased density

Infrastructure is a problem. Many American cities seem to be stuck on 50-year-old (or more) infrastructure and unwilling to fund anything new. But blocking development isn't the right answer, investing in better infrastructure is. Build a damned light rail network, like Minneapolis (my home town) is doing. Rail commutes are nice, you can read or play video games. Then it doesn't matter if you can afford to live in the city center.

> If one out of every four "tall skinny" houses was made available at well under market rate to local, low income renters

This is a popular idea but I think it's naive. How are you supposed to decide which low-income renters get lucky and get to live in a much nicer house than their peers? And who pays for it? If you're going to tell developers to foot the bill then that discourages development which ultimately makes the housing shortage worse.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by swearwolf on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:17PM (#28980526)
There’s something that I think often gets overlooked about the replacement of old buildings with new ones, and I think it’s pretty important. The lowest tier of housing in a given city is generally accessible to poor people in ways that new construction, or even properly maintained older buildings never will be. Slumlords operate at this level, and while they suck for many other reasons, they are often willing to rent to anyone who can deliver the rent money approximately on time. No background checks, no credit checks, no income requirements, just cash on the barrelhead the first of the month. That’s a hugely valuable service to the poor; no matter how bad the housing might be it still beats living on the street.

There are a surprising number of homeless people who live off of their disability benefits. If they could find such an arrangement as described above, they wouldn’t be homeless anymore. But landlords have no incentive to take that risk with them, and they won’t pass any of the income screening processes that are baked in to the apartment rental process today. As the worst of our housing stock disappears, the fraction of the overall housing market that remains accessible to people like that becomes ever smaller.

Worse, it’s a ratcheting effect: it only works in one direction. Sure, as the new high end units go up, the previously acceptable ones look less desirable, but it takes a long time for a unit to reach the bottom rung. Plus, even if it’s now the least desirable building in town, if it belongs to a landlord unaccustomed that to renting to the poorest segment of society that can technically afford housing, it’s likely that landlord will not want to change their requirements and policies to begin renting to them. The landlord is likely to preferred to sell the property instead, which greatly increases the chances it will be redeveloped into luxury housing, and so on.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by sershe on Sunday October 24, 2021 @08:45PM (#28983377)
But that is not actually what happens in the cities like SF. The lowest tiers of housing are not affordable. The worst apartment I've ever lived in my life (including Soviet-built flats) was in SF - a crappy 1906 victorian (or whatever you call these ugly hovels SF is full of) subdivided into 6 units; drafty, not updated in ages, no dishwasher or laundry, etc. It was also the 2nd or 3rd most expensive rental per sqft in my life (the only other ones were also in SFBA). I took it because I didn't even realize apartments SO crappy can exist, e.g. I didn't realize there was no dishwasher until after moving in... and the whole neighborhood was like that. Normally, that would all be "lower tier" housing. In SF, it was $3k/mo in 2014 and rented to either techies, or roommates (sometimes 2 unrelated people per bedroom). If someone built luxury towers in the same neighborhood, the techies would have moved there and actually made the lower tier of housing somewhat cheaper for others.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by wjamesg on Sunday October 24, 2021 @10:20AM (#28978150)
I am in NC. All the new development in my area seems to be homes crammed as closely together as possible on mowed down property - no trees or neighborhood identity whatsoever.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by bradleyjg on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:50AM (#28977059)
I’m a lifelong renter that would love to see yimby policies put in place, but this is misleading.

Norway is cold. Show me a city where people can sleep outdoors year round without dying that doesn’t have homeless and then we can see what an effective solution looks like.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by grecy on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:54AM (#28977087)
Australia has roughly 116,000 homeless out of a population of 25,690,000 [1]

[1] https://www.salvationarmy.org.au/need-help/homelessness-supp...

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by bradleyjg on Sunday October 24, 2021 @08:13AM (#28977188)
Homeless is an ill defined term. The definition used by governments and NGOs is different from the one used by everyone else. The former seem to deliberately lean in to the confusion in order to tie policy goals related to their more expansive definition to the greater public interest in solving the narrower problem.

In any event, it doesn’t take very many homeless by the colloquial definition to make a city unpleasant. I don’t know whether or not Sydney has a homelessness problem and that link doesn’t tell me.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by ralusek on Sunday October 24, 2021 @06:09AM (#28976458)
Homelessness of this kind has very little to do with housing, if at all. What you've said here is all true as it relates to the affordability of housing, but that's not why these people are homeless. I've said it before, and I'll said it again: people seem to act as if the only two options are having a house in the most expensive city in the world, or being homeless in the most expensive city in the world. If I can't afford a house in the most expensive city in the world, my immediate thought isn't going to be "well I guess I can't live anywhere then, streets it is."
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by nikonyrh on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:35PM (#29003399)
"...so you hold onto properties realistically valued at multiple millions while paying taxes at rate appropriate to tens of thousands."

Doesn't that make the tax percentage very low when prices have risen so much? And in addition the percentage varies from unit to unit, even if they are identical in all aspects (including their value) except when it was last sold. What a weird system.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by stjohnswarts on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:55AM (#28975512)
As long as California is willing to pay market value for said house, then sure. Otherwise, they have no more right to my property than anyone else. The USA isn't a communist country or a dictatorship, and property rights dominate except in the most dire circumstances. So it really isn't a “solved problem”. What would work is shutting the NIMBY's down and letting housing get rezoned by developers for multi-home units.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by i_am_proteus on Sunday October 24, 2021 @06:04AM (#28976429)
How does one determine the correct "market value" of a property where government zoning laws prevent building more dense housing?

Perhaps you advocate for removing these zoning laws and then letting the market clear?

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by stjohnswarts on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @12:11PM (#29002213)
Market value is market value. Any competent real estate agent can give you a decent estimate.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by ZeroGravitas on Sunday October 24, 2021 @07:36AM (#28976965)
The property rights absolutist solution would be to build a wall on publicly owned land blockading the private property and reducing its value to nothing and then buying it from the owner at its new market price of zero.

When this happens in real life they can apply to the government for an easement, but that's practically communism, so we wouldn't allow that in this thought experiment.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/landlocked.asp

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by dud6eyrc on Sunday October 24, 2021 @02:27AM (#28975421)
Homelessness in the US has virtually nothing to do with housing supply. While I'm sure it happens, as a population these are not San Fransiscans who couldn't afford rent and now live in the street.
Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by samstave on Sunday October 24, 2021 @11:30AM (#28978820)
The entire nations property values are FN insane. They should ALL drop.

1350 sf for $599,000 thats $450/sf - wtf. in the ghetto in SF. and the home is a ghetto looking home on the outside with zero land.

I LOVE Joe Rogan shitting all over LA and SF.

The podcast with the author is fantastic to have in the background and listen to.

again, I want to help the homeless with 'Care Fleet' -- See my other comment on that.

Re:A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco by zthrowaway on Sunday October 24, 2021 @10:41PM (#28983999)
Giving them a home isn’t going to solve their drug addiction. Far from having a 100% solution.