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Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by jl6 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @02:50AM (#28836825)
I’ve always thought of gaming as a virtuous low-impact form of entertainment, insofar as it displaces real-world pursuits like foreign ski holidays, gasoline-powered road trips, or land-hogging golf courses.

But burning nearly a kilowatt on a gaming rig feels like a step too far. Sure, the power could be sourced from wind or solar plants, but there’s still a level of excessive conspicuous consumption going on here that doesn’t sit right with me.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by evandijk70 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:07AM (#28836905)
Definitely agree that a kilowatt seems very high for gaming and starts to have an environmental impact. Still, driving a car at 100kph takes around 20 kW of power, so driving somewhere is still a bigger burden on the environment than gaming.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by noobermin on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:28AM (#28837018)
That's peak power. You don't run at 100kph straight for hours but you will run your gaming rig at say 500W for three hours in a day (particularly for people willing to shell out money for such a gaming rig). The total energy per day might not be that different, you'd have to account for how much is involved in commuting in traffic.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by causi on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:09AM (#28839178)
My daily commute is 48.6 miles, at about 30 miles/gallon. 1.62 gallons per day, which when combining the energy content of the gas (38.685 kwhr/gal) and the refining energy cost (4 kwhr/gal) is a daily vehicle energy usage of 69.15 kilowatt-hours, plus whatever I use getting lunch. The greenhouse effect of my gaming rig is next to irrelevant.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by evandijk70 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:41AM (#28837450)
Tesla's claimed energy usage is around 180Wh/km.

Running your gaming rig for three hours a day at 500W (1500 Wh) would therefore be the equivalent of driving 8km (5 miles) in a modern electric car. Still ok comparatively.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by marcosdumay on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:49AM (#28839622)
You really won't run your rig at 500W all the time either. That's also peak power.

Very few people have computers capable of cooling a constant 500W.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by eertami on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:27AM (#28840090)
>You really won't run your rig at 500W all the time either.

While this is true, I don't agree with your statement about cooling.

It's very possible to have sustained 500W+ draw while playing a modern game on a 3080/3090. Sometimes you might play games for a few hours with a fairly consistent 500/600W power draw - honestly I think it's cheap and easy to cool this kind of load. A few 140mm fans and a mid-level CPU cooler should be enough.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by marcosdumay on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @01:37PM (#28842586)
> A few 140mm fans

Yeah... Nearly nobody has a few 140mm fans on their computers. Most people won't have any fan lager than 120mm. Powerful computers usually have a pair of them. Maybe 3 if you count the PSU.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by genocidicbunny on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @05:23PM (#28845252)
People who are using 3080/3090's are much more likely to have systems with larger numbers of fans. And they usually have far more than two.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by sudosysgen on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:18AM (#28839270)
That's not peak power. 20kW is around 30hp. Peak power for an average north American car is more like 150kW(!).
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by rjsw on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:00AM (#28839092)
> You don't run at 100kph straight for hours

Plenty of people going on ski trips in Europe will run their car at 130kph for hours.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by InvertedRhodium on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:50AM (#28837177)
There are literally millions of kilometers of highway all over the world with a speed limit of 100km/h. I think the total number of man-hours spent at that speed or higher globally would be pretty shocking.

My commute to and from the office alone would be about 90 minutes at that speed.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by noobermin on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:14AM (#28837312)
Do you live 150km away from your office? A super commuter commutes >50 miles one way, that's a little over half of 90 miles (which is 150km). Again, the point is what matters isn't peak power or rate of any quantity but the integral, the total. Most of the time commuting is spent moving much slower than 60mph.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by Spacemolte on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @08:52AM (#28839032)
In Denmark, the limit is 50kmh inside the city, 80kmh on normal roads outside the city, and 110-130 kmh (68-80 mph) on the motorway, which is where a lot of people drive most of the commuting distances. So the average speed is likely not going to be at least 60 or higher.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by InvertedRhodium on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:03PM (#28847416)
No, I'm about 60km one direction - I live rural and work in a nearby city. Each direction is still only 40 minutes or so, so it's not as onerous as it might sound.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by sudosysgen on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:19AM (#28839281)
Stop and go traffic uses more than 20kW of power.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by tweetle_beetle on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @08:57AM (#28839072)
The grandparent gave specific examples of "foreign ski holidays, gasoline-powered road trips". Extra context for those was provided with an example benchmark by the child comment. Original hypothesis was not about everyday car use.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by wcarron on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @07:51PM (#28846557)
> That's peak power. You don't run at 100kph straight for hours

Have you been to the US? I regularly drive 4+ hours at 125kmh+ anytime I'm trying to get to the Sierra, or Utah or Arizona, which is often.

In fact, almost every weekend I drive at least 3 hours round trip, half freeway half mountain roads, if I go to the closest good climbing. 5+ if I go to my preferred locale. The distances people regularly cover are enormous.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by nitrogen on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @12:11PM (#28841472)
excessive conspicuous consumption

Energy is a proxy for accomplishment and development. Humanity's #1 goal should be to maximize energy use per capita while minimizing energy use per activity, such that every human is doing as many desirable activities as possible.

Gaming at 1kW for an hour costs 30 cents or less in electricity. As others have mentioned indirectly, going for a Sunday drive to see the changing leaves uses more energy. A space heater uses more power.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by stirfish on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @01:25PM (#28842459)
>minimizing energy use per activity

Maybe this is what feels off?

A kilowatt feels like too much for a videogame. This isn't a bitcoin mining thing, is it?

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by colejohnson66 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @02:01PM (#28842923)
If we take a game console or PC running at 250 watts (made up number), 4 hours is already a kilowatt-hour. Kilowatt-hours sounds like a lot, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by merb on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @06:14PM (#28845713)
my rtx 3070 uses like 70-80% on average when I play new world. my cpu (5600x) is very low (~25%), but I probably blow like ~250 watt or more per hour and I do not have a expensive setup (no rgb, etc.)
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by stefan_ on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:10AM (#28839862)
It's a trivial amount of power and even better, we have already electrified all the components! Computers don't require us to go out and replace all the combustion engine vehicles still around. Clean up the grid and that's it.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by unglaublich on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:04AM (#28836888)
Why? Your home heating consumes 5-50kW. In colder climates, the power consumption will be compensated by less home heating.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by bestouff on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @04:43AM (#28837467)
if you compare that with an inefficient electric heater. Otherwise, your gaming gear will consume way more electricity for the same heating power than, say, a heat pump.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by tgb on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @08:56AM (#28839066)
True but doesn't change the conclusions dramatically, does it? If a heat pump is twice as efficient as electrical heating then you're still displacing half the wattage from your rig with reduced heating.

On the other hand, taking heat into account just makes matters worse in the summer, and I haven't known a gamer who takes half the year off.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by timw4mail on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @08:58AM (#28839080)
An electric heater is ~100% efficient. The power generation is much less efficient.

The heat pump can be effectively more than 100% efficient, but that's because it's moving heat.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by denton-scratch on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:39AM (#28840251)
What's an "inefficient electric heater"? Is that a device that generates more light than heat?

Surely all the energy you put into any machine is eventually going to turn into heat? Hmm - perhaps there are heaters that generate heat mechanically, and the resulting losses are sonic.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by nicoburns on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:58AM (#28840555)
There are electric heat pumps which move heat from the ground into your space which use drastically less energy than electric heaters that convert electricity into heat directly.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by denton-scratch on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:12AM (#28840715)
Sure; but that's because a heat pump has the potential to be > 100% "efficient" (which isn't real efficiency, in the thermodynamic sense).
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by tgv on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:03AM (#28839128)
Even if, in warmer climates the offset will be doubled by the AC.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by fomine3 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:30AM (#28861146)
5kW minimum, seriously? Not 5kWh/day?
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by jayd16 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:42AM (#28837125)
Probably not worth judging the entire sector by the peak theoretical output of one connector that might be relegated to industrial use.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by turtlebits on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:01AM (#28836875)
Lots of things are a huge waste of electricity. Ever use your oven? At 12% efficiency you're wasting over 1kw of electricity.

Unless energy prices rise, it's literally pennies.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by noja on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:06AM (#28836898)
This line of argumentation drives me insane, and it's so pervasive right now.

Why should I walk to our friends' house down the road? After all, I drive to work, so why not drive there too?

Why should I use less plastic? After all, I already use some plastic, so why not use more?

Why should I eat less meat? After all, I already eat some meat, why eat less?

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by evandijk70 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:13AM (#28836935)
I think the environmental problem should be approached like a budget - figure out how much we can spend, and than allocate it accordingly. We have to avoid being 'penny wise and pound foolish' with the environment. If I look at my own environmental footprint, the biggest changes I can make are in my heating, my flying, my driving and I am trying to change those things (working from home, and changing my holiday destinations) Will be looking into isolating my house as well. Gaming does not even register compared to those, as it does for most people.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by noobermin on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:15AM (#28836951)
It will start to matter if it costs ~3KWh's of gaming per day. Probably even more if this is meant for serious gamers, they will game more than 3 hours per day.

It doesn't matter it's genshin impact or animal crossing but it definitely starts to matter when your gaming costs almost two orders of magnitude up in power from the typical case.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by turtlebits on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:20AM (#28840806)
3KWh a day is $0.30 or less than $10/month. (in Seattle).
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by denton-scratch on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @10:49AM (#28840436)
How can an electric oven be just 12% efficient?

I suppose:

1. You often have to pre-heat the oven, so during that time, you are not cooking food

2. The oven is rarely full, so instead of heating food, you are heating the oven

3. The oven remains hot after the food is removed, but you could argue that's low-grade heat, unsuitable for cooking

If my electric oven is just 12% efficient, I'd like to know why (and how I can get one that is more efficient). I understand that microwave ovens are much more efficient (I guess because the heat is generated inside the food). But they're no good for browning food, or baking bread.

I'm still lost on this notion that an electric oven is just 12% efficient. If that's true, then I could patent a device that harvests energy from electric ovens, and make a mint.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by turtlebits on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:18AM (#28840787)
It's not hard to understand, the energy required to heat up food vs energy consumed by the appliance.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/06/f23/conventi...

TLDR: they measure with a metal block.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by denton-scratch on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:58AM (#28841320)
> It's not hard to understand

Please don't patronise!

My oven, on full power, draws 2KW (at least, that's what the labels on my fuze-box suggest). If only 12% of that energy is used to heat the food, then the oven amounts to a 200W food cooker, combined with an 1800W electric heater (I rounded down to 10% to make the reckoning easier).

I live in a studio flat; my oven is in my living room. How come I can survive without A/C? But I seem to be able to roast and bake without my home warming up.

My microwave is an old cheap one, with a max. power of 700W. Assuming that's 100% efficient, then it should cook food about 3.5 times faster than the inefficient oven, I guess; and it does. So it does seem that the oven is inefficient. But why? Where is the lost energy going?

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by squeaky-clean on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @12:52PM (#28841992)
Most of the energy created by the oven doesn't actually go into the food, it heats up the air which heats up your food (and also the walls of the oven). While a microwave pretty much only heats the water molecules in your food.

To roast a chicken to 165f you'll probably set your oven to 400f. And then when it's done, the air and interior of your oven are still very hot. When you microwave food, you can touch the side-walls of your microwave right away and they won't be hot. The only excess heat in a microwave comes from the food steaming and contact with the platter.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by dragontamer on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @01:23PM (#28842422)
> But burning nearly a kilowatt on a gaming rig feels like a step too far.

How much energy does a golf cart use? Cause those golfers are using a golf-cart for miles when their legs are perfectly acceptable (and golf-carts are illegal in professional play)

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by sz4kerto on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @02:58AM (#28836861)
It's really low impact though. Even if your rig consumes a kW, you're still not driving anywhere (in a car that consumes at least an order of magnitude more), or going out to a restaurant (that's air conditioned), etc.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by nuerow on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:11AM (#28836926)
> It's really low impact though. Even if your rig consumes a kW, you're still not driving anywhere

If google didn't failed me, a good car mileage is equivalent to around 20kWh per 100 miles. Therefore, a 100 mile drive is loosely equivalent to a day or two gaming with one of these rigs.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by causi on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:20AM (#28839298)
Doing the math based on the energy content of gasoline gives 96 kilowatt-hours for a car getting 40 miles per gallon, going up to 106 if you include the energy cost of refining a gallon of gasoline from oil.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by tiotempestade on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:03AM (#28836883)
Exactly why I decided to comment, only to find you already touched the topic :)

This is getting out of control!

Nvidia/AMD: build more efficient GPUs!

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by chaosbutters314 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:19AM (#28839286)
if you crunch the numbers on how much solar (desertec has a fun graphic on this for the interested) and wind power we could produce if politicians actually cared about fighting climate change, there is nearly an infinite supply of power for humanity.

This isnt even including fossil fuels, nuclear/fusion, biomass/trash, and hydro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec#/media/File:Fullneed....

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by Raidion on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:25AM (#28840868)
Lots of sunlight, but limited amounts of manufacturing and rare earth metals for solar and limited amounts of energy storage for times when solar and wind aren't available. Solar and Wind are terrific, but they're not a free lunch. What drives down the price of energy, drives up the cost of wind/solar/batteries.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by Retric on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @11:40AM (#28841095)
When you double battery production over 5 years prices go down not up. It’s a function of economies of scale.

It’s one of the major reasons EV ranges keep increasing the batteries are less expensive.

Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by hulitu on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @01:08PM (#28842216)
Why so negative. I think gaming is the future. We can heat houses and have fun. If only will be able to store the heat. Why make better chips when the user do not care ?
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by rowanG077 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:01AM (#28836877)
Rest assured that almost no gamer will have a card that uses that much power.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by DeathArrow on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @02:56AM (#28836853)
Any human endeavor consumes energy.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by dotancohen on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:02AM (#28836882)
Sex is good for 100 calories per minute. Google tells me thats a bit over 5 watts.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by robbedpeter on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:28AM (#28837017)
100 kcal ~= 6973 watts Multiple sources say it's about 100 kcal per hour, not minute. At any rate, that's about 7kW.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by jayd16 on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @03:47AM (#28837151)
I wonder how much energy was spent getting to that 5 watts.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by dotancohen on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:46AM (#28839583)
Time, my friend, time. Women need time invested in them. Not money, not energy. Time.
Re:Up to 600 watts of power for graphics cards with the new ... by lrem on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @09:50AM (#28839627)
You lost "kilo" when querying. Or, more likely, your source lost it.