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Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by rkagerer on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:22AM (#28627700)
Absolutely loved this series, but never acclimated to the 3D maps they switched to after Civ 3.

You couldn't see as much of the world at once, and units and terrain became more difficult to discern.

I wound up playing in the strategic overlay, with mods that relieved some of the claustrophobia, but it never felt as slick as the earlier 2D / isomorphic view.

Other classic strategy games from that era followed the trend, favoring to showcase gorgeously detailed models enabled by their new 3D engines, over equipping you with a clever and efficient UI to conquer the world.

Anyone care to recommend a favorite turn-based strategy game with a pleasant interface which you think I might enjoy?

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Gravityloss on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:31AM (#28627759)
A lot of the game moved to bonus calculation. Playing a spread sheet so to speak. What happened with units and the map was secondary.

The Civilization board game was similarly boring. Most of the time there were no wars, and everybody was just trading and dealing with disasters and barbarians.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Gravityloss on Thursday September 23, 2021 @08:11AM (#28628054)
To add to it, Civ 1 graphics are actually quite beautiful in a pixel art way. With Civ 3, you could use for example a watercolor art pack for the terrain, which was great. And still very legible.

The 3d art just looks like a console game aesthetic - it's extremely kitschy - I guess I'm just not in the target demographic.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dman on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:33AM (#28630685)
Same thing happened to Age of Empires and Railroad Tycoon. The 3d versions were never as special to me.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Gravityloss on Friday September 24, 2021 @03:29AM (#28639570)
This was the watercolor terrain pack for civ 3, maybe it was better in my memory. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/warpstorm-watercolor-...

Maybe there could be a "Civ for adults". With just way less content, shorter games and a more mature art style.

Civ 1 didn't have: culture, religion, great persons, great works, armies, ranged units, luxuries, strategic resources, building placement, unit xp/promotion. Civ 1 didn't even have an improvement for forest tiles.

Civ 1 did have as extra: home city for units. Marine units had to be transported by ship - but that added an interesting mechanic, you had to protect your super important transport loaded with 7 very expensive units. Terrain improvements took a really long time so you had to have multiple settlers work on the same tile. Some superfluous things like fortresses. Small city spam ruined Civ 1.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by nickik on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:15PM (#28632112)
That really questionable. Yes city layouts have large importance and getting the right bonus for important buildings does matter.

However, if you want, you can play very war like, or avoid war quite well. Snowballing early with a push is a viable strategy.

Rushing tech to get the first cannon and pushing then as well.

It depends on what civilization and what special units and buildings you have.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dragonwriter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:25PM (#28632282)
> The Civilization board game

Which one? There are at least two different ones, with the same name, based on the computer game franchise. (And, of course, the Avalon Hill game predating the computer game, but that doesn’t seem relevant.)

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Gravityloss on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:56PM (#28633588)
I meant the old Avalon hill game indeed.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hasmanean on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:03PM (#28631952)
How realistic.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Gravityloss on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:58PM (#28633604)
Yeah maybe that's what rulers have actually spent their time on. Ie very little energy is left over for actual territory expansion attempts. Most of the time you're putting out fires.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by thedogeye on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:36PM (#28631526)
in Civ 6 you can toggle back to the 2D graphics really easily, i sometimes play that way bc its easier to see the resource squares.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by bitxbitxbitcoin on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:17AM (#28629494)
Battle for Wesnoth is my go to 2D turn-based strategy game. It isn’t anywhere near as advanced as Civ but it scratches my itch.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dragontamer on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:21PM (#28632220)
Wesnoth is tactical, not strategy. Its a good game (albeit too luck based IMO... Just get used to the "luck swings" of battle), but a totally different genre than 4X / Strategy.

Civilization is on the easier / simpler end of 4X / Strategy... and believe me, this is a good thing!! Things get really complicated. Paradox games (Victoria, Hearts of Iron, Crusader Kings, Europa Universialis) are the "complicated" games, technically realtime but the underlying simulations "feel" turnbased. (Hearts of Iron progresses the simulation in 1-hour increments. They're "realtime" only because it'd be too boring to hit "next turn" so often, but you can hit the pause button and really think about a situation at say: September 1st 1939 @ 1pm if something terrible is going on)

Romance of the Three Kingdoms is also a strategy game: war, tactics, resources, diplomacy, etc. etc. The elements you'd expect.

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"Tactics" games that focus on a singular battle as the core gameplay loop. Fire Emblem, Wesnoth, Wargroove, Advance Wars, Heroes of Might and Magic, Panzer General, Starcraft, Age of Empires.

"Strategy" games approximate the battles and focus on larger scale elements.

A good rule of thumb is that Strategy Games have an element of siege and supply lines, while Tactics games often just "teleport" the resources where needed. Tactics are about maneuvering your troops to get an advantage, Strategy is about finding / securing resources (ex: placing your defensive Pikeman on the enemy's mine in Civ2, or in their districts in Civ6)

Civ leans towards the simpler/tactics side, but is just barely enough "Strategy" that I'd group it in the strategy side of things.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dragonwriter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:47PM (#28635963)
> Civ leans towards the simpler/tactics side, but is just barely enough "Strategy" that I'd group it in the strategy side of things.

Civ I’d say (while relatively simple in most versions) is very much on the strategy side. While maneuvering units in the battle theater matters, wars are mostly won or lost by the tech and economics and diplomatic situation going in, and the timing of the decisions to start and end the war.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dragontamer on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:53PM (#28636591)
Civ 1, 2, 3, 4 were more strategic IMO.

Civ5 and Civ6 has moved more tactical. I'm spending more and more time thinking about where to place units, because they no longer "stack up" with each other. Collision detection for the human means that I need to put more effort into deciding where to move and place my units.

Yeah yeah yeah, people were confused about "stack kills" in Civ1/2/3, and without stack-kills, Civ4 combat grew dull. So maybe removing stacks all together was a solution (the current direction for Civ5 and Civ6).

--------

Somewhere along the line, combat was no longer a guaranteed killer. (Civ1/2 was definitely a "win you live, lose you die" for every combat). Civ6, now I'm thinking about movement points, where to retreat to, how to save up HP again and recover, whether or not I can cutoff the opponent's retreat. These are more tactical elements.

I feel like Civ6 has pushed "strategy" through its government card system, which is pretty abstract (Oh, you just got a new government card! Time for a new war! I'm going to equip +100% pillage bonus and +4 Strength bonus). A lot of Civ6 is about abusing the multiplicative bonuses of these cards at the right timing.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by bitxbitxbitcoin on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:35PM (#28632401)
Haven’t thought of it like that before. Thanks so much for the breakdown. What is your favorite? Or what would you suggest to someone that likes the tactics side more than the strategy side with my two faves actually mentioned by you: Héroes of Might and Magic and Starcraft.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dragontamer on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:41PM (#28632474)
If you've never tried Advance Wars-style tactics, I suggest Wargroove, which has been my favorite tactics-game for the past couple of years.

Wargroove's AI is a bit dumb compared to Adv. War's Days of Ruin however. The game really shines as a competitive player-vs-player setting. But if you're not used to the mechanics of Adv. Wars, you probably need the easier AI to learn how quirks of Adv. Wars style / Wargroove style play.

Nintendo is remaking Advance Wars 1 and Advance Wars 2 ("Reboot Camp") for the Switch. I'll be revisiting these originals-remakes as they come out in a few months. I remember the CO-powers being incredibly overpowering (while Wargroove's special "grooves" are quite powerful as they are, they are no where on the level of CO-powers or CO-superpowers of the original).

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by bitxbitxbitcoin on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:15AM (#28642683)
Thank you! Haven’t played any Advance Wars but I will check out Wargroove.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by joejohns on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:43PM (#28631646)
If you're going to try 3D maps, Humankind is the way to go. It feels like a Civ sequel but with a twist.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by nitia on Friday September 24, 2021 @05:15PM (#28647935)
Folks always call me insane for only ever playing Civ5 in strategic mode. Glad i'm not alone
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by rubslopes on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:41PM (#28631612)
If you have an Android phone, try the great UnCiv game.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by SteveNuts on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:39AM (#28627808)
"Rome: Total war" is fantastic
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @08:12AM (#28628056)
As is the the Total War series in general, even if I don't like naval battles that much, but hey that's what superior numbers and auto battles are there for.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Aerroon on Thursday September 23, 2021 @08:19AM (#28628118)
Total War is a technical miracle. I've yet to see any other games have so many animated units on screen in a battle at once. Other games don't even come close. It creates an amazing atmosphere.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by rasz on Friday October 01, 2021 @12:21AM (#28714505)
Have you played Mount & Blade: Warband? Some random video I googled with big battles (500 units active) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3onap7r0ZUM
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Mikeb85 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:06PM (#28631990)
Yes and no. I followed the first Total War game (Shogun) from before it's release and it was just sprites on a 3d board. When it went full-3D it just used batching. True, they always slightly pushed what graphics were capable of but not necessarily to the same degree as the FPS or RPG genres.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Aerroon on Friday September 24, 2021 @03:07PM (#28646571)
But thousands of animated characters on screen is pushing the graphics. You can't really do the same in a standard way with an off-the-shelf engine. You put 500 animated characters on screen in UE4 and everything is going to crawl to a halt.

RTS games even today limit players to ~200 pop each.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by nickik on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:17PM (#28632144)
The amount of units in Total war has basically not been going up, because they value animated units to much.

You are still playing with low 1000s of units, and this has been the case for a decade. The AI is also not really much better.

Even on strategy map level it has been simplified.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hd4 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:50AM (#28627883)
Shadow Empire