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Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by prvc on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:16AM (#28625695)
>A growing pile of video-game histories [...] suggest that the medium has always had collective effort at its heart, from its academic beginnings to its ascent into everyday life. In Meier’s memoir, we discover that he was a good game-maker when he fought this essential fact, but that he became great when he learned to embrace it.

>The strength of the modding community is, instead, the very reason the series survived.

Oddly, the best games to bear his imprimatur, Civ II, and (by far) Alpha Centauri, were not headed by Meier. It does seem like games, of all things, would have the potential to be at their greatest under the vision of a single author, but history has shown the opposite (many times, after designers of successful games go on to head their own projects with total control, the results fall short of their predecessors). Part of this might have to do with the possibility space of game states (far too great for a single person to test, explore, or even conceive of), and also the complexity involved in programming a complete game. However, another explanation is that it is still possible to achieve greatness via that approach, and we merely have not had any genius game designers so far.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by silvester23 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:03AM (#28626033)
I'm really no expert on game designers but from the top of my head I can think of at least one that I would describe as genius, namely Chris Sawyer who made Transport Tycoon and Rollercoaster Tycoon almost single-handedly.

If that's not genius, I don't know what is.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by blindluke on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:30AM (#28626238)
He coded those games single-handedly AND in x86 assembly. Yep, that's a good example of a genius, right there.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by erikbye on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:47AM (#28627467)
Not to dismiss his achievement, but, why do people always think programming in assembly is ultra hard? This was just how we wrote games back in the day. I still know people using Assembly for a wide range of development, it's not particularly harder than any other programming. A bit tedious, yes, but with FASM and Fresh it's a lot better.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by BeetleB on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:16PM (#28631245)
> This was just how we wrote games back in the day.

Most games written in assembly were not at the scale of Transport Tycoon, though.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by rhn_mk1 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:44AM (#28627845)
Perhaps it's a matter of framing: it's hard compared to more high level languages, which don't need so much self-discipline.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by clydethefrog on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:26AM (#28626587)
Has there been any interviews or analysis how he managed to do this and where he is now? He just seems to be disappeared.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by markedathome on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:12AM (#28626869)
Noclip did a documentary[1] on RCT and successor games, and tried to interview Chris. The response passed through his representative is stated in the 2nd to last segment (The Legacy of RCT at 30m55) in the video.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts4BD8AqD9g

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by thom on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:32AM (#28626254)
Braben too, for similar reasons.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by colinb on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:52AM (#28626381)
Braben & Bell, no?
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by thom on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:07AM (#28627224)
For the original yeah, but Frontier seemed an even bigger achievement by Braben alone. Last game I can remember fitting on a single floppy.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by BeetleB on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:15PM (#28631235)
Frontier was a massive game, and I was in awe at how he packed so much in a single floppy.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by toyg on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:43AM (#28625890)
I think that's just like the fact that John Lennon did his best work in The Beatles, or that George Lucas's best films are the ones where he was challenged by collaborators. Once art requires a certain amount of diverse techniques in order to be produced, the chances that a single individual will excel in all of them fall dramatically.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:17AM (#28626531)
Makes me think about Gene Roddenberry, too. The more I learn about history of Star Trek, the more it seems that Roddenberry was a bit over-the-top with his ideas. If he got his way with everything, the show would be quite cheesy (the way Andromeda is). Star Trek's golden era (TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT) is the result of other producers pushing back on Roddenberry's influence, and after his death, increasingly subverting some of his ideas.

(Of course over time things strayed too far from the original vision, and the result is the post-ENT crapfest that carries the official "Star Trek" name, but is otherwise a generic action movie franchise. A strange situation, in which the only work still sticking to the deep and hopeful vision of the future is the little animated show that everyone thought will be a joke.)

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:42AM (#28627446)
Lower Decks is good, it is done by people that really liked the old ST series. Sometimes, I am not sure if it is mocking some of the ST tropes, like the two-hand punch, space anomalies and so on. Still light years better then Discovery (which is totally not cannon in my mind).
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:06AM (#28627601)
I love Lower Decks. It's definitely mocking and lampshading plenty of Star Trek tropes, but it does that in a playful and positive way. It laughs, but doesn't trivialize - and unlike the other new shows (Discovery, Picard), it doesn't paint the future as grimdark and everyone as untrustworthy and bloodthirsty.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @08:08AM (#28628026)
Picard wasn't too bad actually, I think. Maybe a tad to gritty / realistic when compared to TNG. It did offer a plausible universe development so, incl. Picard sacrificing his career for principle.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:36AM (#28629756)
I feel DS9 pulled off realism better - Picard seems to me to fly past realism and straight into dystopian stereotypes. And there was too much meaningless killing.

I'm also pissed about the Borg subplot - in the trailer and initial episodes, they set up the scene for some amazing drama and deep storytelling, and then they just literally crashed it into a planet and discarded like space trash. It was a huge letdown to me.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:49AM (#28629954)
I honestly believed that the AI-gods were the creators / origin if the Borg. DS9 is quite a high bar to be measured against, so. Just shy of Babylon 5 for that period in my mind.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:52AM (#28630014)
Right. B5 is a masterpiece.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dragonwriter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:34PM (#28631500)
> Picard seems to me to fly past realism and straight into dystopian stereotypes

The “dystopian stereotypes” in Picard seem to me to be classic Trek with a very slight change of focus (largely in dwelling in aspects of the setting and social contexts which were indicated in other parts of the franchise but only briefly or tangentially interacted with.)

Kind of like what Lower Decks does, but in a different direction (and played for drama rather than laughs.)

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by toyg on Thursday September 23, 2021 @09:11AM (#28628580)
Picard was aimed at people who were teenagers or twentysomethings at the time of TNG, and 30 years later are now disillusioned adults. It had to be "all grown up and shit". I found it pretty good, if occasionally predictable.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @09:38AM (#28628934)
So I am the target audiance then. Especially since I consideres TNG to be too optimistic already as a teenager.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:28AM (#28629643)
I guess I'm not the target audience then - I was a kid when TNG was created, and on the lower end of teenage years when it aired in my country. I bought the optimism wholesale - hook, line and sinker. It had significant influence on my development as a person. As much as I'm disillusioned about the real world, TNG is in my heart a reminder that we could do better. And I feel the first step to do better is for the idea to be out there.

So here's me hoping that in 5-10 years time, I'll fall into their "target audience" window and they'll make an inspiring, positive show for people like me.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:45AM (#28629888)
I am also a Star Wars fan, and Battletech. Star Wars wise, I loved TIE Fighter. So I guess I always had a leaning towards darker, less otimistic SiFi. Still watch TNG, DS9 and ENT so. Even VOY from time to time. Not sure I'll do that with PIC once I've seen the episodes once. Not sure if that is due to the episodic story telling of the former or nostalgia.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by toyg on Thursday September 23, 2021 @09:50AM (#28629110)
And you didn't hate it, so - job done :)
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @09:52AM (#28629147)
Yeah, funny isn't it? Not that I'll complain, so. Give me more content like that!
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by saalweachter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:05PM (#28631113)
Orville is also in that vein, IMO.

It tries to be a comedy, a parody, but you can also tell it's a love-letter to old-school Star Trek.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:18PM (#28632162)
My pet theory is that they went over the top with comedy aspects in S1 only to establish The Orville as a parody, to avoid being accused of IP misuse/plagiarism. S2 toned down the jokes a lot, and it feels more like a lighter TNG, which I believe was the goal all along.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by saalweachter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:23PM (#28632251)
Yeah, I got the same impression -- they really wanted to make Star Trek, and were like, "Exactly how much parody do we need to include to make a lawsuit unprofitable?".
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hef19898 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:13PM (#28631213)
And better Star Trek then Discovery.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by mandmandam on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:59PM (#28631895)
I've pulled Ceti eels from my ear that had parasites who wrote better Star Trek than Discovery.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by sprafa on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:42AM (#28627083)
Basically it seems like having a strong inventor with a good original idea, then mixing it with other peoples influences even AGAISNT that original inventor’s intent, is a good way to get cool stuff.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by nickik on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:22PM (#28632231)
This discussion is just silly. Claiming anything about art in general is gone be wrong.

Sometimes a singular vision leads to something great. Something it doesn't. Sometimes a single vision contained by bureaucracy leads to something great. Sometimes a vision helped along by others creates great things. Sometimes nobody has any vision and they somehow end up with something amazing. Sometimes you have a bad vision and others turn the core of your idea into something awesome.

There are literally tons of examples for all of these. We have 10k+ years of human history of art.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dataduck on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:57AM (#28625989)
I don't even think there needs to be more than one "technique" - think of all the authors that are worse without an editor. It's about not having any pushback, and missing your blind spots or getting high on your own supply.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Torwald on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:51AM (#28625948)
> It does seem like games, of all things, would have the potential to be at their greatest under the vision of a single author, but history has shown the opposite

I have to disagree with you here.

Both Civ II and Alpha Centauri were headed by a strong single author. As were both the original Civ and Civ IV which I and many others would see as the best manifestation of the game.

We can also see this outside of the Civ franchise. Think of Super Mario, Popoulous, Doom/Quacke, Sim City, Elite – just to name a few.

Great games were made by great Designers, yes, single authors. Very much akin to big movies or fantasy novels.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Deestan on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:32AM (#28626257)
> Doom/Quake

Doom was a tense collaboration between Carmack and Romero. Carmack was geniusing out the engine, while Romero was pulling hard on the game atmosphere, music, level design and details like the timer that spawned Doom's speedrunning culture.

Quake, which was Romero-less, was a technical masterpiece, but not a very memorable game. There was the brown level, the other brown level, and the brown level again but different. Its modding potential plus competent network code really made it a big hit.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by hyperman1 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:53AM (#28626392)
The artist of doom is a forgotten hero apart from Romero/Carmack. He had a background with nasty medical images, so the hellish deformed people were a good fit.

Without it's art, doom would be a very different game.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by NittLion78 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:35PM (#28631508)
That's Adrian Carmack (no relation to John). He made most of the characters you see in the game out of clay before they were pixelated.

Can't recommend Masters of Doom enough, the book that talks about the history of id Software. That all these guys came together in the same place is a miracle in itself.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by selimthegrim on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:37PM (#28631548)
And in Shreveport, nonetheless. Go look at that building on Google Street View sometimes.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by NittLion78 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:18PM (#28633892)
One of the strangest buildings I've ever seen. I wonder if it wasn't a street-level stall market or something first because now it's basically a parking lot with an unfortunate building packed under it.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by tome on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:38AM (#28626295)
> the timer that spawned Doom's speedrunning culture

Could you elaborate on that? I'm aware of speedrunning (it's fun to watch!) but I don't know anything about "the timer".

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dagw on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:48AM (#28626359)
Doom was one of the first games that showed how long you'd spent to complete a level at the end of each level. This made it easy (and obvious) to compare times and compete with others.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by tome on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:56AM (#28626414)
Ah, the levels were timed. Got it, thanks!
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by ant6n on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:28AM (#28626596)
What about Wolfenstein 3d?
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by CoolGuySteve on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:51AM (#28626377)
Romero worked on Quake all the way up to release. He was the one that built and uploaded the first beta release and has talked about it extensively.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by juanuys on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:47AM (#28626346)
Quake: Let's not forget the NIN-composed soundtrack!
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by edwcross on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:48AM (#28627116)
At least on the story front, Alpha Centauri seems to owe much more to Brian Reynolds than to Sid Meier, according to [1]. Unless you mean he was the "strong single author" there (instead of Sid Meier), I'd argue there were at least 2 strong authors.

[1] https://paeantosmac.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/introduction/

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Torwald on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:19PM (#28632181)
Yes, Reynolds for SMAC and Sören Johnsen for Civ4, after Civ3 was his learning step.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by prvc on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:13AM (#28626100)
>Popoulous, Doom/Quacke

These examples, at least (the others are a bit outside of my knowledge), fit the pattern outlined above of having worse successor projects headed by a former team-member.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Torwald on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:38AM (#28626652)
By your own words Civ does not fit that pattern, because you said Civ II was the best instance. Now I am unsure what your point is.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by concordDance on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:49AM (#28626367)
I don't think I'd agree, the best games in terms of concept and fun (as opposed to polish like Witcher 3) are those with essentially one or two people making the fundamental game. Things like Slay the Spire, factorio and Rimworld had 1 or 2 people making the game what it is, with some later folk adding some polish.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by bspammer on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:50AM (#28626726)
Don’t forget that the most popular game of all time, far outperforming billion-dollar studios, was written in about a year, in Java, by a single dude. There’s something very beautiful about that.

If it was part of a book or movie you’d roll your eyes.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by selimthegrim on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:34PM (#28631501)
For a second I thought you literally meant Polish
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by tannhauser23 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:35PM (#28631521)
Shout-out to Brian Reynolds, who was the lead designer on both Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri!
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by kryptiskt on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:14AM (#28627270)
I love Civilization, but I think the most singular thing Sid Meier ever did was Pirates. It's weird that there are so few attempts to modernize/rip-off that concept out there.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by samsolomon on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:47PM (#28631702)
Pirates! and Railroads! were both loads of fun.

Railway Empire has a lot of the same mechanics as Railroads! but with much better graphics a little added complexity. I don't that many video games these days, but Railway Empire is one I find myself going back to play again and again.

Would be nice to see someone do the same for Pirates!

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by vanderZwan on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:36AM (#28626649)
I think it matters whether or not you look at games that are a single "work" or games that are part of a series.

For example, I think Lukas Pope is a good modern example of single author creating really unique and novel games. Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri on the other hand are more like good examples of fresh ideas being injected into a series under new leadership.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by selimthegrim on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:36PM (#28631530)
It’s debatable whether Obra Dinn is a video novel instead, although you can argue it predicted the recent Columbo revival
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by vanderZwan on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:10PM (#28634611)
In my opinion Obra Dinn is an interactive radio play with graphics. Hyper-radio, if you will.

However, my definition of what can be considered a game is also quite broad, and Obra Dinn clearly has an interactive game loop so I think it counts.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by gruez on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:24PM (#28634791)
>Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri on the other hand are more like good examples of fresh ideas being injected into a series under new leadership.

I didn't play civ2, but what fresh ideas did alpha centauri bring?

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by vanderZwan on Friday September 24, 2021 @06:37AM (#28640654)
Well, for example the terrain-manipulation mechanics are much more fleshed out, due to it aiming to be a "hard sci-fi" game with terraforming and xeno-biology. It even has a simple terrain-based weather model where (for example) the shadow-side of mountains have less rainfall, influencing fertility.

There was the ability to do unit customization (which actually could get a bit overwhelming to teenage me), which came from other 4X gamee set in space I guess.

Another thing is that Civ 1/2 didn't really have very strong differences between nations gameplay wise (if you played as them, enemy AI is a different story). That really started with Alpha Centauri and its ideological factions being partially represented by their gameplay strengths and weaknesses. The way it balances an implied a grander sci-fi narrative through these ideological factions and quotes from their leaders on the one hand, and gameplay mechanics affecting how these factions evolve with the development of new technologies on the other was novel and hasn't really been equalled since imo.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by dgb23 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:05PM (#28631982)
Jonathan Blow did that. Braid was a very successful, disruptive, beautiful, well designed game. The Witness was actually mind-blowing.
Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Bobylonian on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:33AM (#28626262)
Claims that Alpha Centauri or Civilization II were best games are over exaggerated - I have never understood why people had to make such controversial claims and why they have to continue to do so. IMO, they were unappealing games slapped on top of a very simple concept of first Civilization, that had unique component among all the strategy games - digital encyclopedia - long long time before wikipedia. That was one of the reasons why I started to learn English.

As for Civilization II - it sucked hard and if anyone feels insulted about this claim, then they really have to sit down and shake their brain box to remember if that Windows monstrosity of Civilization II was really that great. Sure, videos of advisers was new technological advance, which very quickly became nuisance and then were turned off. Music was initially great, but after a while I had to play Civilization II without it, unlike Heroes of Might and Magic II, which had the greatest music and was proper full screen game for Windows(and DOS!!!). Not to mention, that there was great strategy game of Master of Orion 2: Battle of Antaris. And then there was a Civilization clone - Master of Magic - with had a very successful following as Age of Wonders. Anyway, I can still enjoy first Civilization(even with that nasty bug, that glitches Earth map in late game), because of Genius simplicity of a game, but can't say the same for Civilization II even if I had fun when I played it, because usage of Windows GUI in Civilization II will feel outdated and very unappealing, which only later Civilization titles fixed.

As for Alpha Centauri - it was not as widely available as Civilization II and technical specifications were ahead of most of PCs, when most of them were not powered by latest Pentiums. That sucked, as I really wanted to play that game(hence the discussion about greatness is more limited, unlike about first Civilization), but by the time I was able to get a hold on it, it was already outdated(and unplayable due to Windows compatibility and color paletting issues!!!), compared to other games that were released at that time.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by billfruit on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:05AM (#28626472)
Civilization games to me looks be like a software representation of board games. They are not simulations, and they are very gamified. It certainly feels good to play them, but after sometime with it, one might get a feeling that these are really board games with overcomplicated rules, and really nothing ambitious about them (I am speaking of games Civ 3 and upwards, the ones before are technologically remarkable considering the era in which they were made).

One other hand if you take XCOM in its various incarnations, it does have a very compelling game play loop, with very consequential decisions to be made, and the combination of tactical decision making at battle level and the long term factors in the overworld is a very interesting one.

In short, we do need to reassess if Civilization games are indeed great games, considering that they are unqualfyingly praised in much of the discussion.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:27AM (#28626593)
I'd almost agree, but the new XCOM games[0] get quickly boring to me because of their linear tech tree progression aspect. That is, all the weapons you unlock over time are strict improvements over predecessors they replace. There's no increase to the number of options or tactics - you unlock laser weapons, there's no reason to ever bring in regular firearms to the fight. You unlock plasma weapons, there's no reason to ever use lasers again. Etc.

What I'd love to play is a game like XCOM, but where the tech tree is broader than you can cover in a single game, and where options have tradeoffs - so e.g. it could make sense to have a squad where one soldier is carrying a plasma weapon, and everyone else carries regular rifles, because tactical considerations make it a better option.

(Also one implication of this I didn't like in terms of role-playing: firearms are our weapons, laser weapons are our weapons made from reversing some basic science off alien tech, and plasma weapons are just their guns modified so humans can handle them. I always felt there should be a way to make lasers ultimately better than plasmas, based of my favorite trope of humans beating alien invaders with smarts and sheer force of will.)

--

[0] - I never played the old ones, but from what I hear, it's the same, except much more difficult.

Re:Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’ by Bobylonian on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:03AM (#28626803)
Civilization 3 had to do what Civilization 2 was not able to do and break into 3D world of strategy maps. I was more impresssed by Age of Wonders games that offered better terrain strategy and eventually they replaced my interest in Civilization games. That along with more pleasing fantasy visuals and music was something that took over up till Crusader Kings II came along(though it had a dark side of using toxic and not very deep enough interpretations of history).

>>One other hand if you take XCOM in its various incarnations, it does have a very compelling game play loop, with very consequential decisions to be made, and the combination of tactical decision making at battle level and the long term factors in the overworld is a very interesting one.

Hmm, this is interesting observation, but I have excatly the same feelings towards Civilization games that you are describing about XCOM games, because I felt that XCOM games did not offer very deep game and were very repetitive to the same grind. But then, I also have a dislike for any doom scenarious of future and probably that was one of the reasons why I was not impressed by XCOM games and also Civilization II with free range of scenarious as the first thing that map makers did was creation of doomsday scenarios and the ones that weren't doomsday scenarios were not as fun as other games.

>>In short, we do need to reassess if Civilization games are indeed great games, considering that they are unqualfyingly praised in much of the discussion.

Well, I feel that some of the "hate" or claims about greatness of some games in past is more on the meme level that over time have developed in myths, that some now are taking too seriously - even religiously... :))

It also has to be taken into the account, that any author that is riding the wave on someones else success has to praise object of the topic even more and that makes self fuelling cycle, but I would not go so far as to claim, that Civilization was not a great game. It stood test of time - my memories of first Civilization are of those times, when other very popular option was Wolfstein 3D and then Doom and Doom II and I still played first Civilization when I got bored of Civilization II. Of course I played later Civilizations as well and had fun, but my ground base memories are not about them all so there will be a bias about some of them.