News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by Barrin92 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:52AM (#28365412)
>the first thing to do is work it out privately. [...] Indeed, many people would find it unreasonable to bring in third parties before trying personal discussion.

I actually think that is a really, really bad thing to do in a university. That is because unversities are full of seniority and dependency relationships, and in an unequal relationship informal conflict resolution puts the weaker party at a disadvantage.

Solving things in private is appropriate in a group of peers, say a small company among friends, or a family, but whenever there is an inequality in power, teacher/student, manager/employee, it is important to not handle things in private. It's one of the reasons universities tend to be so scandal ridden, and why you have these stories of say, sexually abusive teachers who somehow are able to brush it under the carpet for decades.

It's also the reason why the military tends to be hyper-formal when it comes to complaints, because it is so hierarchical. Solving things privately when one party exercises authority over the other will inevitably produce some very screwed up results.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by crispyambulance on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:29AM (#28366507)
Academic departments are just as political as corporate org-charts. There are massive power imbalances and total opacity in important decision-making.

"Solving things in private" actually means that the power-brokers will have private "off-record" discussions to determine the fates of people who have no say in the discussion and don't even know the discussion happened.

It's a quaint principle though. Something for graduate students to aspire to while they're grinding away in the lab at 3am.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by hitekker on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:40PM (#28375332)
Yep, “RPP” one of those positive illusions that the naive cling to, while the sociopathic leverage its rhetoric to advance up the ladder. Or to impress the status quo onto new entrants of the social hierarchy.

It’s a very scary thing to live in the real world.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by oytis on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:00AM (#28365473)
A reasonable person will hopefully understand the difference between a disagreement and abuse and (reasonably) act accordingly.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by Barrin92 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:43AM (#28365777)
well if everyone was reasonable we wouldn't even have the need to talk about the principle of reasonableness right. Kinda like saying "why doesn't everyone just use common sense?"

Problem is obviously that in any institution like a university faculty the line between reasonable issue and unreasonable complaint is really blurry.

for a few thousand years we've been debating how to design institutions, if it was just 1. be reasonable, 2. don't be unreasonable, 3. don't be offended we'd have fewer problems than we do

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by darkerside on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @06:59AM (#28366265)
No, we'd have different problems than we do, not necessarily fewer. The problems that arrive from a litigious culture like the one you describe are potentially worse than the little unfairnesses that creep in through informal dispute resolution.

Ironically, the post is not a command, and edict, or an enforced policy. It's an informal request. If you have an issue that you don't think fits, you are free to disregard it. That is the power of the RPP.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by crispyambulance on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:34AM (#28366551)
> That is the power of the RPP.

The RPP sounds more like a clause in a corporate mission statement. Trite, insincere and, I'm sure, broken regularly and with glee by everyone who matters in the organization.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by simonh on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @12:07PM (#28369744)
I’ve studied and worked in many institutions and organisations over many years. Yes I’ve come across a few prepped who sometimes abused their positions, but this was rare and in all but one case were manageable using the practices established in those organisations.

I’m sure abusive organisations exist and all I can say is if at all possible, and it’s almost always possible, please leave for your own sake. There are better places to live and work. I do not recognise the world you describe.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by darkerside on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:54PM (#28373522)
Not the case in my experience with that organization
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by PennRobotics on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:34AM (#28366556)
Informal complaints to bring to your disagreement partner and then maybe your TA or professor instead of directly to your department chair, dean, or ombudsman:

I can't see the writing. We're learning OpenCV, but I never learned Python. I think my paper was graded incorrectly. My dad passed away, so my coursework is suffering. I should've been in the acknowledgements in my lab's paper. One of my group members is useless. My lab partner smells... like, a LOT. So-and-so keeps taking our oscilloscope. Our workspace is too cold. The professor always calls on women (or Indians or the front row). Why do all groups need to bring a vegetarian option to their presentation but the group with the vegetarian doesn't need to bring meat? The Greek groups all share old exams with each other but not with anyone else. Why does the department need to find a minority instead of just hiring the most qualified applicant? Why can't people just let personal insults roll of their back if their research work can stand on its own?

People from a ton of cultures and backgrounds are jammed into one institution. Of course there will be friction, and it shouldn't be the job of the university president to tell a chronically offending student to only take one slice of pizza at the Friday research talks and go back in line for getting seconds. Also, everyone has a different opinion of what "a big deal" is. Thus, for the sake of everybody and everybody's academic and social development... just be cool. Be reasonable.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by narrator on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @07:22AM (#28378444)
The law has been debating the "reasonably prudent person" standard in torts for negligence for hundreds of years. Possibly trillions of dollars in lawyer time has been spent over the last two centuries debating the meaning of this very term.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by foolinaround on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:44AM (#28369465)
> Solving things privately when one party exercises authority over the other

Is'nt this the case for pretty much any relationship?

A father-son relation or even a spouse relationship in many cases?

The formal process should always be available, but more like a last stop. It can document what informal steps were taken, (they likely failed - thats why they are doing it). Now both parties are sort of shamed if there were steps missed?

Is there harm in trying out a private meeting, knowing one can always have formal channels available at their disposal?

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by handoflixue on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @01:07PM (#28370655)
> Is there harm in trying out a private meeting, knowing one can always have formal channels available at their disposal?

Possible negative outcomes:

1) The senior person is sufficiently abusive and skilled as to shut down discussion and convince you that formal channels would be fruitless (or even actively harmful to you)

2) The senior person now thinks less of the junior and will subtly sabotage them (especially harsh/pedantic grading, a lack of mentorship and support, etc.)

3) The junior person no longer trusts the senior person, and this will sabotage the junior (refusing mentorship and support, ignoring genuinely useful feedback)

4) A lot of issues are "twenty people all have this minor complaint" - the senior can gaslight all twenty people that no one ELSE has ever made this complaint so clearly they're too sensitive, and no one else ever realizes there's more than one victim so they write it off

5) Twenty people ALL have issue with the same one comment the senior made, and he's now getting mobbed - and once people realize it's twenty-on-one, mob justice mentality kicks in and they feel emboldened to say that the senior DEFINITELY needs to be cancelled

6) Twenty people all have DIFFERENT issues with the same one comment, and the situation is now a 50-page-long flame war before an administrator finds out and locks the thread.

7) People assume that the policy should be interpreted as "we don't care, please don't bother us" and just fail to bring up issues at all

8) People with anxiety feel like they need to do the big scary personal confrontation first, and thus fail to bring up the issue at all

(These are not just hypotheticals - I've either been in the situation or seen friends in that situation.)

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by foolinaround on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @03:48PM (#28372637)
these are all great points; what can be draw from this - and still consider a path of private settling before taking it publicly?

More awareness and resources provided to the victim? There can be a 3rd party org, a private arbitration that is sworn to privacy that can guide the victim so that he does not suffer from the above weaknesses?

Knowing that the issue is being watched even though privately should cause the more powerful person from abusing the situation?

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by ctvo on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:10AM (#28368290)
> It's one of the reasons universities tend to be so scandal ridden, and why you have these stories of say, sexually abusive teachers who somehow are able to brush it under the carpet for decades.

a Reasonable Person would understand the principle is a guideline for behavior within a community, and your judgement as a person is still required.

Abusive behavior is different from a disagreement between paths forward on a research project, for example, where working it out with peers is better than escalating it up the chain. During disagreements assume the other party is also a Reasonable Person vs. assuming ill will until proven otherwise.

There may be power dynamics, and this doesn't change those. A person in power can be a bad actor with or without these guidelines. Taking the extreme that this helps those in power be bad actors requires more evidence, as it assumes people will blindly follow this even when the other party is obviously not a Reasonable Person.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by clipradiowallet on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:17AM (#28368390)
If you DO decide to handle things privately...for the love of bob, cover your ass. This means record the interaction, that way if things go poorly...at least there is an impartial record of it to prevent he-said-she-said situations.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by tw04 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:26AM (#28368514)
> This means record the interaction

Friendly reminder: in several states it’s illegal to record the interaction if both parties haven’t consented so you should record yourself asking the other person for consent and their agreement if either one of you are in one of those states.

https://recordinglaw.com/party-two-party-consent-states/

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by reidjs on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:49AM (#28368815)
They may mean at the very least write down the conversation afterwards. I've noticed this can be helpful as well, because people tend to respect written records even if they are not 100% impartial.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by withinboredom on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:00AM (#28368949)
I would document all private interactions between coworkers. Not for any paranoid reason, but just as a CYA and having the notes to refer back to what was discussed later on. Especially if you’re a manager.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by dalbasal on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:47AM (#28365813)
Good point, but it kind of confines "Reasonable Person Principle" to the realm of equal relationships only. At that point you can get stuck in a hyper litigious culture.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by travisporter on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:34AM (#28368641)
Yea, the page seems directed towards university students. I don't think meant it for staff/faculty.
[dead]
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by dang on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @01:57PM (#28371286)
Please don't do the "Karen" thing on HN. I know there are lots of different arguments about such things but on HN the bottom line is that it's (a) a tired trope, and (b) a predictable provocation, and we don't need either of those.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:19PM (#28373056)
Can you suggest a similarly compact (doesn't even have to be one word, I'll settle for three or four words) I alternative that conveys similiar meaning?

The reason the term gained popularity overnight is that it fills a hole in the (informal) English language.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by dang on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:00PM (#28375084)
The phrase "Going Full Karen(TM)" in your post didn't add any information; it was just a gratuitous trope. Your comment says the same thing when that bit is deleted, and says it better. Therefore my suggestion for an alternative phrasing would be the empty string :)
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by sophacles on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:05AM (#28369020)
So there's only "private conversation" and "full karen"?

There's only the option for "full bureaucratic hell" as the 3rd party involvement?

Most attempts to work together are just complaints about misunderstanings?

Nothing about this seems right. I've experienced nothing but middle grounds for each of your extreme positions. For example, going to your direct supervisor to mediate is not bureaucratic hell, nor is it "full karen". Asking the mediation team for $workplace to help out isn't usually a bureaucratic hell, nor is it "involving an authority" in the way you suggest, since they usually do not have termination powers (or police powers or whatever else you're imagining), its the step before going to those authorities.

Also, you seem to completely ignore the basic truth that sometimes when people have hard feelings towards each other a third party can serve as a catalyst for productive communication.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by babyblueblanket on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:29AM (#28369290)
I think there is most definitely a line where there can be no reasonable or safe way for someone to try and communicate privately and should definitely go to a third party to sort this out as a first step. I've heard of stories in academia where freshmen are literally physically cornered by staff, where someone is being stalked by a student who is unstable, where a student is physically threatened, where a student is offered extremely inappropriate quid pro quo for grades/research opportunities, etc.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by user-the-name on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:53AM (#28367404)
The point being made is that you are not "narcing to the cops before talking to the other party". The other party is a cop. You are at a massive disadvantage.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:56AM (#28367433)
The option to escalate up doesn't go away simply because you've tried to right things privately. If someone with power over you wrongs you you should still make a good faith effort to reconcile it with them directly, they might not even know they've done so(!).

I fail to see how the other party having power over you has any bearing on how the situation (beyond setting the norms of how you'd approach them about it or potentially limiting your communication channels to them, which would apply to any topic you approach them about regardless of if you've been wronged).

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by enominezerum on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:46AM (#28367984)
The option to escalate can severely get compromised if you give your superior the opportunity to approach their superior first.

Not only have you given your boss a chance to compromise your position but you won't have the rapport with their boss that they do. You are just a complaint and until there is a trend of these complaints they most likely will be handwaved away.

Maybe you haven't been through the circlejerk enough but the politics of a place totally shoot down your argument.

Oh, you know throwaway0a5e, they are a troublemaker. I have been trying to deal with some of their performance issues off the book to keep their record clean but you know don't like that and are now calling me out for whatever. You trust me, right boss?

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by Sebb767 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @10:57AM (#28368903)
If that boss is of the opinion that you unnecessarily escalated the situation, you can easily get the troublemaker label completely on your own, plus get some bad faith from the accused party if said boss talks to them.

In my opinion, this depends a lot on the severity of the issue anyway. If we're talking about workload assignment or some comments, talking directly will be the best solution. If the issue is serious (sexual harassment, academic fraud etc), directly escalating is warranted.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by user-the-name on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:59AM (#28367476)
It might be instructive for you to try to think of some situations where not making that effort might justified for yourself.
Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @09:04AM (#28367540)
Such as? You clearly have something in mind.

The only way I can see justifying the "narc first, negotiate later" approach is if I don't expect the "negotiate later" part to ever happen and am simply seeking to be a vindictive jerk and want to cause problems for them.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by user-the-name on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @01:43PM (#28371120)
No, I am asking you to engage with the argument in good faith, and making some token effort to understand what the argument actually is.

And it should be obvious, to you, if you do engage in good faith, that the "simply seeking to be a vindictive jerk" is not the reason anyone would have to make this argument.

Re:Reasonable Person Principle (2009) by phkahler on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @11:07AM (#28369047)
The ability to appropriately negotiate/challenge/confront/reject authority is critical. It takes practice, you'll screw up, there will be consequences. But if you don't practice and learn this skill the hard way you'll be a victim your whole life.