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Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by travoc on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:42PM (#28162556)
Can someone explain how Apple being coaxed or coerced into searching all of our personal devices for illegal files by federal law enforcement is not an unconstitutional warrantless search?
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by gbrown on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:56PM (#28162694)
Simple - our laws haven't evolved with technology. That's why your mail has about a million times more protection than your email.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by shuckles on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:13PM (#28162901)
USPS regularly X-rays mail, and the only protection against abuse is policy (it’s not admissible evidence in the United States).
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by twobitshifter on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:17PM (#28162952)
Not only that, but they log all metadata on the envelope of every letter sent.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by 0x426577617265 on Friday August 13, 2021 @12:21AM (#28165414)
Law Enforcement can also get access to that metadata -- it's called a mail cover. See U.S. v. Choate.

"A mail cover is a surveillance of an addressee's mail conducted by postal employees at the request of law enforcement officials. While not expressly permitted by federal statute, a mail cover is authorized by postal regulations in the interest of national security and crime prevention, and permits the recording of all information appearing on the outside cover of all classes of mail."

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by enriquec on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:13PM (#28163553)
and my building's mail gets routinely stolen
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by vkou on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:19PM (#28162967)
This cuts both ways. Our laws not evolving with technology is also the reason why tapping and intercepting secured digital communication is orders of magnitude more difficult than tapping someone's analog phone line, or why decrypting a hard drive is far more difficult for the police than sawing apart a safe.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by sgustard on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:03PM (#28163469)
Agreed. Technology has allowed abusive images to thrive and reach new consumers. Any pressure to "evolve laws with technology" will surely lead to more draconian anti-privacy measures.
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Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by Barrin92 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:13PM (#28162907)
probably depends more on the kind of old lawyer. I've actually noticed that in general older people tend to be more privacy conscious than younger ones. Old people at least still know what secrecy of correspondence even is. It's not even a concept that exists any more for a lot of gen z.

In particular American supreme court arguments often stand out to me in how clearly the judges manage to connect old principles to newer technologies.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by EpicEng on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:36PM (#28163771)
>old lawyers

Meanwhile, it's predominantly young people who freely hand their information to mega-corps to be disseminated and distributed. Outside your (our) bubble young people don't give two craps about privacy.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by ink404 on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:11AM (#28167937)
Outside this bubble most people young or not don't give two craps about privacy
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by stjohnswarts on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:31PM (#28163743)
It has nothing to do with them being "old". Saying that is a very ageist thing to say. I know a bunch of old techies who are completely against this. It's about lack of technical knowledge and how this is being twisted to seem okay. Your average millennial doesn't give a damn about it either.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by nullc on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:23PM (#28163012)
They aren't being coaxed or coerced. If they were forced-- or even incentivized-- by the government to perform these searches than they'd be subject to the fourth amendment protecting against warrantless searches.

Apple is engaging in this activity of their own free will for sake of their own commercial gain and are not being incentivized or coerced by the government in any way.

As such, the warrantless search of the customer data is lawful by virtue of the customer's agreements with Apple.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by 3grdlurker on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:52PM (#28163901)
> Apple is engaging in this activity of their own free will for sake of their own commercial gain and are not being incentivized or coerced by the government in any way.

Honest question: how do you know this, for sure? Or is your comment supposed to be read as an allegation phrased as fact?

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by azinman2 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:43PM (#28163246)
> Apple is engaging in this activity of their own free will for sake of their own commercial gain

What's the commercial gain?

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by dannyw on Friday August 13, 2021 @04:22AM (#28166706)
The commercial gain can be "don't break us up under antitrust law".

Apple is basically saying to governments: see our walled garden? The more you allow us to wall it, the more we can help you oppress your citizens.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by slg on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:47PM (#28163289)
This will likely be paired with the rollout of full encryption for iCloud and they will sell the entire thing as a pro-privacy move.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by ninkendo on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:13PM (#28164102)
That would appear to have backfired.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by sethammons on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:51PM (#28163335)
More access to markets subject to totalitarian regimes
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by azinman2 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:57PM (#28163404)
I'm assuming you're kidding here, but if you look at the list of countries already selling/supporting iPhones, what's not on the US export ban list that's a totalitarian regime?

https://www.apple.com/iphone/cellular/

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by stjohnswarts on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:34PM (#28163760)
China is obviously the big one as is Russia.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by azinman2 on Friday August 13, 2021 @02:21AM (#28166038)
But they’re already in both countries.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by thombee on Friday August 13, 2021 @06:29AM (#28167353)
Why can't they provide this feature to these regimes? Why do they implement it in the USA then? Seems like a roundabout way to go about it lol
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by nullc on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:54PM (#28163379)
Not being identified as the go-to platform for kiddy porn collectors.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by breck on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:22PM (#28163652)
My money is this is secretly about nuclear, bio, chemical or other WMD or “dangerous” material. I can’t imagine that Apple would be so stupid to open such a Pandora’s box to an Orwellian state and crimes against all children in the name of making no statistical difference in the porn problem. There has got to be a hidden story here and severe pressure on top executives, otherwise I can’t see how the math makes sense. Please keep digging, journalists!
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by cucumb3rrelish on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:47PM (#28163863)
Something tells me people with access to nuclear arsenal are not going to take pictures of it with an iphone and share them via imessages
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by 6AA4FD on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:41PM (#28164298)
You mean like american soldiers wouldn't store sensitive nuclear info on public Quizlet decks? Hmm
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by akira2501 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:55PM (#28164395)
> the porn problem.

Is the pornography the problem, or is the the abuse of children?

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by Componica on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:51PM (#28162640)
It's most likely a demand by China so that they can create an infrastructure to locate political dissidents. Oh look, a Winnie the Pooh Xi meme ended up in your gallery/inbox. Why is there a knock at the door? I'm pretty sure thats the real reason.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by trainsplanes on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:59PM (#28162751)
It’s silly to think the US government hasn’t been twisting their arm to do this for years.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by Componica on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:03PM (#28162787)
My ears perk up whenever I hear a "Just think of the Children" argument because after Sandy Hook, I'm pretty certain the US could careless about children. There's a real reason behind this.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by null0pointer on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:31PM (#28163744)
Whenever someone makes a "think of the children" argument it has absolutely nothing to do with whether they actually care about children. They just want to make it extremely difficult to counter-argue without being labelled as pedophile adjacent. It is a completely disingenuous argument 99% of the time it is used.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by Jcowell on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:36PM (#28164270)
I feel like there’s a fallacy for this but I’m not sure. Either way doesn’t matter the logic here isn’t that the US could careless about children , it’s that the US cares more about Gun rights than it does children , but that doesn’t say anything about the minimum level of care they have , only the maximum.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by adrr on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:03PM (#28162797)
My bet it was the US government. Predicted fallout doesn’t seem something Apple would do themselves with no monetary gain.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by endisneigh on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:53PM (#28162666)
what's this take based on - have a link or anything?
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by someperson on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:57PM (#28162727)
I don't know about the suggestion that it's the government of China pushing for the feature itself, but the fact the feature now exists and WILL be used by authoritarian regimes to scan for political content is clearly understood by Apple employees. From the article:

> Apple employees have flooded an Apple internal Slack channel with more than 800 messages on the plan announced a week ago, workers who asked not to be identified told Reuters. Many expressed worries that the feature could be exploited by repressive governments looking to find other material for censorship or arrests, according to workers who saw the days-long thread.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by endisneigh on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:59PM (#28162750)
your quote contradicts your statement. it seems like the employees are worried that it could be exploited, not that it necessarily will be.
[dead]
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by mmastrac on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:59PM (#28162753)
In fairness, this is literally happening on Chinese messenger services today so I wouldn't call it either of those
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by XorNot on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:01PM (#28162765)
Apple isn't being pressured from China, but criticizing the CCP as the brutal dictatorship it is is not racist (and that idea is done verbatim CCP propaganda).
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by kurofune on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:19PM (#28162970)
Randomly suggesting that every authoritarian decision taken unilaterally by an american company was made to please the evil chinese government while offering no substantial proof is not "criticizing the CCP", it is just shoehorning US's far-right talking points into a thread that has nothing to do with it.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by thombee on Friday August 13, 2021 @06:27AM (#28167344)
Why then release this feature in the US? Why not just release it in China and avoid all this negative press? Bad take is bad
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by alpaca128 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:53PM (#28162673)
National Security Letters for example. They wouldn't even be allowed to talk about it.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by schaefer on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:05PM (#28162818)
I am not a Lawyer, but my understanding is:

The wording of the CSAM law is that content should be scanned when uploaded. That condition "upon upload" triggers the 3rd party doctrine.

Apple has gone above and beyond here, not the actual US gov. So, the bill of rights doesn't apply to Apple's decision to scan content on device, just before it is uploaded.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by nullc on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:46PM (#28163276)
There is no law that requires providers to scan users private documents, even uploaded.

However, if they do review the material and see child porn they're obligated to report it.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by istingray on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:57PM (#28163954)
Any chance you have a good link explaining this? I saw the parent comment earlier and wanted to add this. But I only recently learned that the US federal government cannot require or incentivize providers to scan user's private documents, so didn't want to post without clear sources.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by 0x426577617265 on Friday August 13, 2021 @12:22AM (#28165420)
It's covered in 18 U.S. Code § 2258A - Reporting requirements of providers
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by stjohnswarts on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:37PM (#28163775)
Apple hasn't gone above and beyond anything here. The only way they can save face is laugh at the government and not give into their demands to set up a backdoor tool to scan every iphone user.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by alfiedotwtf on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:10PM (#28164966)
"The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no reasonable expectation of privacy.""

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by stjohnswarts on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:29PM (#28163715)
Because it's a contract between you and apple. You don't have to use their phones and they're a corp not the government. Personally I see it as an underhanded attempt for the government to use apple as a police force in everything but actually deputizing them. They're using a loop hole in the 4th amendment to spy on you without a warrant.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by michaelbjames on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:46PM (#28162583)
As I understand, they're acting as an agent of the government, it's a private company. So, the 4th amendment protecting against unreasonable searches _by the government_ does not apply.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by mc32 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:50PM (#28162634)
It’s that third party doctrine that is so convenient when acquiring information otherwise requiring a warrant to obtain.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:25PM (#28163044)
It's right up there with Wickard v. Filburn in terms of SCOTUS screw-ups.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by syshum on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:48PM (#28162616)
Acting as a agent, used to anyway, mean the 4th amendment attached to the company

if they WERE NOT acting as an agent then the 4th would not apply. I think they way they get around that is not do not report to the FBI but instead to NCMEC a "non-profit"

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by nullc on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:27PM (#28163059)
> I think they way they get around that is not do not report to the FBI but instead to NCMEC a "non-profit"

No. The courts have already explicitly rejected the entity that NCMEC is a private entity. NCMEC can only handle child porn via special legislative permission and is 99% funded by the government.

The searches here are lawful because Apple searches out of their own free will and commercial interest and when there is something detected their employees search your private communications (which the EULA permits).

This is also why Apple must review the matches before reporting them-- if they just matched an NCMEC database and blindly forwarded then to NCMEC then it would be the NCMEC conducting the search and a warrant would be required.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:05PM (#28162813)
Reporting to the government doesn't make you a government agent, doing the search at the direction of the government does.

If a private citizen, on their own initiative, searches your house, finds contraband, and reports it to the government, they may be guilty of a variety of torts and crimes (both civil and criminal trespass, among others, are possibilities), there is no fourth amendment violation.

If a police officer asks them to do it, though, there is a different story.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by ahnick on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:57PM (#28162726)
who in turn reports to the government?
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by syshum on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:59PM (#28162749)
Yes, but this is what happens when you make the 4th amendment in to Swiss cheese with exception after exception

you do not want criminals to escape justice to do you???? /s

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by himaraya on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:47PM (#28162608)
No, the Fourth Amendment applies to private actors acting on behalf of the government.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:01PM (#28162766)
> No, the Fourth Amendment applies to private actors acting on behalf of the government.

It applies to private actors acting as agents of the government, it doesn't apply to private actors who for private reasons not directed by the government conduct searches and report suspicious results to the government (other property and privacy laws might, though.)

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by simondotau on Thursday August 12, 2021 @11:04PM (#28164928)
So the 4th Amendment doesn't cover Apple voluntarily inducing their devices to check for CSAM prior to cloud upload.

But the 4th Amendment would cover Apple being forced to modify their system to scan for anything else the Government has told them to.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by 0x426577617265 on Friday August 13, 2021 @12:25AM (#28165436)
That's correct. If the government asked them to do it, then it would require a warrant to conduct the search.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by slapfrog on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:54PM (#28162683)
Why stop there? Instead of getting pesky warrants to search apartments, the government could just contract the landlord to do the search for them. After all, the landlord owns the property and ownership trumps every other consideration in libertarian fantasy-land.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by ajsnigrutin on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:51PM (#28162642)
Technically it's not apple searching, it's your phone searching itself. Sadly, they'll probably put it somewhere on page 89 of their ToS.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by bobsterman on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:34PM (#28163140)
If you do not understand what the software on your phone is doing; you cannot control it; you do not own it. Apple owns it.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by syshum on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:46PM (#28162588)
Because for the last at least 80 years the constitution as not been seen as a document limiting government power, but instead as a document limiting the peoples rights

it has literally been inverted from it original purpose

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by mc32 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:47PM (#28162606)
Probably the same way people say that when Twitter moderates speech on their platform it’s not censorship.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:04PM (#28162808)
Or when the NSA feeds your texts through their ML and into their DB it's not a "search" because humans haven't gone looking for it.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by corobo on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:01PM (#28163991)
Ooh the copilot defence
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by derwiki on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:46PM (#28162594)
IANAL but I presume I consented to this in their EULA.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by ahnick on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:55PM (#28162687)
A EULA cannot force you to give up your constitutional rights.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by greyface- on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:09PM (#28162868)
Constitutional rights can be voluntarily waived.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:21PM (#28162990)
> Constitutional rights can be voluntarily waived.

That...varies. The right to a speedy trial can be waived. The right against enslavement cannot. You can consent to a warrantless or otherwise unreasonable search given adequate specificity, but outside of a condition for release from otherwise-constitutional more severe deprivation of liberty (e.g., parole from prison) I don't think it can be generally waived in advance, only searches specifically and immediately consented to when being executed. But I don't have any particular cases in mind, and that understanding could be wrong. But “constitutional rights can be waived” is definitely way to broad to be a good useful guide for resolving specific isssues.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by nonameiguess on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:16PM (#28163597)
You can definitely consent to giving up the right to not be subject to warrantless search and seizure. Everyone who ever joins the military under UCMJ allows their commander to conduct random inspections of personal property at any unannounced time.

There are limitations, of course. If you live off-post in private housing, your commander has no legal authority to inspect it. They can only go through your stuff if you live in government-owned housing.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:54PM (#28163921)
> Everyone who ever joins the military

That's not a waiver, that's a space warrantless searches are reasonable under the fourth amendment and Congress’ Art. I, Sec. 8 powers with regard to the military, etc. Otherwise, when we had conscription, conscripts, who do not freely consent, would have been immune.

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by C19is20 on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:08PM (#28162854)
What about all the people not USA?
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by vageli on Thursday August 12, 2021 @07:21PM (#28162995)
The USA is not the only country with a constitution.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by int_19h on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:46PM (#28164797)
It's not, but it's one of the few that doesn't have some verbiage along the lines of UDHR:

"In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society."

Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by mzs on Thursday August 12, 2021 @09:56PM (#28164400)
Because it's only a hash that matches and then a court order is needed to get the actual contents.
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by tartoran on Thursday August 12, 2021 @06:46PM (#28162595)
They’re not coaxed nor coerced
Re:Apple's child protection features spark concern within it... by stjohnswarts on Thursday August 12, 2021 @08:40PM (#28163797)
You can bet they were by the TLA intel agencies, but you will not find that documented anywhere other than "Met with FBI/NSA/XXX for liason purposes". I'm sure they were given an ultimatum and they folded.