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Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by brundolf on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:42AM (#28057959)
"Try not to set too much store by politicians. Not so much because they are dumb or dishonest, which is more often than not the case, but because of the size of their job, which is too big even for the best among them, by this or that political party, doctrine, system or a blueprint thereof. All they or those can do, at best, is to diminish a social evil, not eradicate it. No matter how substantial an improvement may be, ethically speaking it will always be negligible, because there will always be those — say, just one person — who won’t profit from this improvement…

No matter how fairly the man you’ve elected will promise to cut the pie, it won’t grow in size; as a matter of fact, the portions are bound to get smaller. In light of that, or, rather, in dark of that — you ought to rely on your own home cooking, that is, on managing the world yourselves — at least that part of it that lies within your reach, within your radius."

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Society doesn't get better because we elect the right politicians, it gets better because the people in it decide to be better (in themselves, towards each other, etc). Politicians are just a (grotesque, exaggerated, warped) reflection of the rest of us; they will never be our salvation. We should stay informed, we should vote, but big-picture politics should be a small part of our lives (and heaven forbid it to be an integral part of our identities). Relationships with real people, solving small-scale problems that confront those we care about, are what really count. And the tragedy is that even as we've put more and more stock in the former, we've been actively sabotaging the latter.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by WalterBright on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:27AM (#28059362)
I was sadly amused when Obama decided to get involved in gender and bathrooms.

Shouldn't the President of the United States, the most powerful person in the world, be instead concerned with issues like, say, nuclear destruction, defense of the realm, the economy, etc.?

But such involvement from the top in minor issues is characteristic when the top accretes too much power. Everyone lower just delegates it upwards because nobody wants to take responsibility.

Back in the 70s when the dorm at Caltech I attended went coed, the bathrooms weren't set up for that. So the students solved the problem themselves. A sign was made with a circle divided into 4 quadrants and a rotating pointer in the center. The quadrants were labeled:

1. men

2. women

3. don't know

4. don't care

which seemed to satisfy everyone.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by azemetre on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:36AM (#28061487)
I think you are gravely misremembering why the DOJ took a stance, North Carolina declared it illegal for transgendered people to use the bathroom that best represents their identity.

The backlash was immense with many companies and the NBA pulling support out of North Carolina. They "lost over $400 million in investments and jobs." [1]

As a result the governor that advocated this bill lost his election that year.

But no, Obama didn't "just decided" to "stick his nose" in the bathroom debates. The Republicans decided to take up a new culture war because attacking gay people after they were allowed to marry was no longer socially acceptable. The President responded because it was a stupid law put forth to attack vulnerable people.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Facilities_Privacy_%26_...

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by WalterBright on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:18PM (#28063651)
> Obama didn't "just decided" to "stick his nose" in the bathroom debates

You can interpret what I wrote as you like, but I'd appreciate it if your quotes were accurate.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by newsclues on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:34AM (#28060253)
Wading into divisive, minority issues, seems foolish for a world leader unless the purpose is to sow division.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by mattrad on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:40AM (#28061536)
I wonder what LBJ would make of that statement?

One person's divisive, minority issue is another's fight for the fundamental right to be treated equally under the law.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by tablespoon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:31AM (#28061433)
> Wading into divisive, minority issues, seems foolish for a world leader unless the purpose is to sow division.

I'm not so sure. It kinda seems required sometimes if you're going to keep your coalition together. For instance, there are some people who are part of the Democratic Party base, who of all the issues out there, care the most about gender and bathrooms (I know some of them). Their stridency has inflected a good fraction of the rest of the party.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by newsclues on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:56AM (#28061737)
You don’t pursue a coalition with a tiny vocal minority at the expense of a greater group of people.

Unless you are an empire and want to oppress the majority…

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by tablespoon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:17AM (#28061995)
> You don’t pursue a coalition with a tiny vocal minority at the expense of a greater group of people.

No? A coalition is A + B + C + ... ~= 50.1%, you might need that vocal minority to make the math work. And those factions won't agree on everything, so there will be intra-coalition tension, but they know they have to work together to get what they each want. However, there are limits, so if the coalition totally abandons C's issues (or even just severely de-prioritizes them), then C will leave.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by BoxOfRain on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:51AM (#28059878)
>Shouldn't the President of the United States, the most powerful person in the world, be instead concerned with issues like, say, nuclear destruction, defense of the realm, the economy, etc.?

I think prioritisation is half the problem in politics, everyone thinks that their issues ought to be a priority and it's very hard to have a centralised authority wade in and decide that for people without looking at best out of touch and at worst actively malicious. It's a big reason I'm a fan of liberalism (in the British rather than American sense) and subsidiarity, central planning in my opinion usually leads to poorer results because the people on the ground in a given situation tend to make better and more informed decisions than someone sitting at a desk in London with many degrees of seperation from the situation at hand. The solution I think is to make government as local as possible so that different places can have different priorities without breaking things for other people.

I believe that politics ought to be as decentralised as practically possible and political abstractions are employed only when absolutely necessary (ie it'd be a bit silly to ask Ceredigion County Council to run its own nuclear energy programme). Not only does this reduce tensions between ideologically diverse areas, it also frees up what remains of the central government's power to focus on long-term globally important issues rather than flitting about with the issues of the day. We need to dispense with this "winner takes all" approach to politics where the most powerful ideological minority can lord it over everyone else for five years at a time and instead adopt a much more "each to their own" approach in my opinion.

The two big barriers to this approach are a) politicians that currently rule the roost of a highly centralised system would be loathe to give up their power - it's very rare that powerful people have the moral fibre to selflessly abandon power and influence for the greater good of humanity and b) current local government infrastructure is pretty atrocious, it's often made up of ridiculous retirees with nothing better to do than exercise their instincts for petty tyranny.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by paulpauper on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:34AM (#28061468)
He was focused heavily in the economy in first term
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by mhh__ on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:30PM (#28065178)
Red colored glasses see what they want, invert the colors and it's the same of course.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by karpierz on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:44AM (#28062343)
Should the President of the United States have involved himself in race and restaurants?
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by eplanit on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:13AM (#28061207)
Obama _far_ preferred focusing on domestic, societal issues over foreign policy and long-term strategy.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by brundolf on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:40AM (#28062285)
Edit: I want to refine the above since this is ticking upward.

I think there are certain problems that do require top-down coordination from everybody, and there are certain moral issues that really are so fundamental they deserve to be enshrined in law. It's just that these days we tend to overestimate the size of these categories and target everything we think to be wrong with our society using this extremely large and imprecise "hammer". Many things, especially small and personal and compassionate and nuanced things, will simply be smashed instead of fixed. And people, in particular, have to improve from the inside out.

This (my part at least) also isn't a "government efficiency" argument, it's a "government precision" argument. Governments (and political factions, and corporations for that matter) cannot know things like morality; they can only respond to very imprecise signals sent to them by the populace. If you look to them as a personal north star, you will end up empty and broken inside. And as you look to them as levers of change, expect that everything they do will be at best a clunky, wide approximate of what you hope for. Factor that in when you set your expectations for which things they can and can't solve.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by spacemark on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:48PM (#28063240)
Very well put. Hans Rosling (RIP) in his book "Factfulness" talks about how the leaders of a nation or even the system of government make very little difference in the rising standard of living in a given country. What makes the difference is people getting up and going to work. Ie, incrementally and steadily improving what's actually in each of our spheres of control rather than losing our minds over celebrity politicians' latest tweets.

As Epictetus said, "If you wish to improve, be content to appear clueless or stupid in extraneous matters." As true today as it was 2000 years ago.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by fsloth on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:11AM (#28059248)
The factor people tend to be blind to (I was) is the magnitude of the effect of historical institutions to current state of affairs. American perhaps are more blind to this than others as their institutions start at a point when the relevant research material concerns things which at that point (18th century) were already centuries old.

Old institutions affect the prosperity and quality of current institutions surprisingly much:

Hapsburg empire:

https://voxeu.org/article/habsburg-empire-and-long-half-life...

An old inca highway:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/07/31/an-inca-...

LOTS of old borders which obviously demarcate centuries old polities, treaties and circles of influence (you need to know what they are to observe them in this map) - mapped nicely into how strongly higher education is inherited:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23780231211019890

As an example we can take Finland that has an obvious area more dark in the east than rest of the country. The funny thing is this area delineates a territory that fell under the Novgorod sphere of influence in 14th century in the treaty of Nöteborg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_N%C3%B6teborg

Daron Acemoglu has a fantastic book discussing the tenacity of historical institutions make or brake current affairs centuries after: Acemoglu: Why Nations Fail (e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity/d... and so on)

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by distances on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:42AM (#28059457)
> Hapsburg empire:

This was extremely interesting, and at the same time quite depressing that present-day corruption levels depend on last centuries instead of just the strength of current institutions.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by fsloth on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:52AM (#28059523)
I'm not sure if it's depressing - generally institutions that attempt rapid reprogramming of population are not considered humane. As mantra goes - culture trumps process. Culture of society even more so than in companies.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by prox on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:27AM (#28058261)
This also the view of Thomas Payne. Everyone should read “Common Sense”. Most topics are still relevant. Many problems you see in US politics are already foretold, and also how to get out of it.

Personal responsibility doesn’t mean taking care of yourself, and stop there, it means taking care of your world, your community and as you say, fix small things together. Insulation is the real pandemic imo.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by afpx on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:45AM (#28060929)
I'm trying to read it ("Common Sense") and, it's making me feel pretty dumb. I'm only a couple of paragraphs in, and my eyes are already glazing over, and I can't follow what he's talking about.

The Wikipedia page says it's the highest selling book in American history, or something. And, people read this at taverns, apparently.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by prox on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:42PM (#28063136)
It certainly takes a moment to get accustomed to it. More than 200 years separate us from his time and way of writing. I do think if you stick with it you will adapt to it. It’s not unlike reading a new coding language in that sense :)
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by brundolf on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:23AM (#28062070)
There's a modern rhetorical trend where the phrase "common sense" just means "whatever I personally think to be obviously right", so that's given me a pretty strong distaste for anything/anyone using it.

But I maybe shouldn't make the assumption that that's how it's used here.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by prox on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:38PM (#28063088)
Also, adding to my comment , this is the first paragraph: >Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by uxjxbjkbuiduid on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:40PM (#28063113)
The work referenced here is an argument distributed as a pamphlet by Thomas Paine before the American separation from Great Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense

Whether that corresponds to your modern rhetorical trend is, I suppose, up to you.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by prox on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:37PM (#28063069)
Yeah, a semantic shift might have occurred. Remember we live in a hyper individual society compared to the time of Thomas.

It’s more about an appeal to our common humanity, if that makes sense :)

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by asymptosis on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:50AM (#28059121)
I tried looking up things like "Thomas Payne" and "Common Sense" but nothing quite matched what you seem to be driving at. Is there something obvious I'm missing, or do you have a link for where to start looking further?
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by joshuaissac on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:16AM (#28059288)
Common Sense by Thomas Paine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Sense
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by asymptosis on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:33AM (#28059410)
Thanks! Ah, it's the spelling. I took "Payne" too literally.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by prox on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:44AM (#28060337)
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by tablespoon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:28AM (#28061386)
> I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Society doesn't get better because we elect the right politicians, it gets better because the people in it decide to be better (in themselves, towards each other, etc). Politicians are just a (grotesque, exaggerated, warped) reflection of the rest of us; they will never be our salvation.

I don't think that's quite right. IMHO, there's a feedback loop between those things and they're both important, especially on the negative side, but even on the positive side, too. So politicians won't be our salvation, but they will be part of it.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by phekunde on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:30AM (#28060800)
> Society doesn't get better because we elect the right politicians, it gets better because the people in it decide to be better (in themselves, towards each other, etc). Politicians are just a (grotesque, exaggerated, warped) reflection of the rest of us

This thinking is nothing new. It was identified long back that the rulers/politicians are reflection of the society. There is a very well-known old proverb in the language Marathi: "Jashii prajaa, tasaa rajaa". It means, "A king is a reflection of his subjects". So that tells us, this understanding that the king/ruler/politician is reflection of the society was understood long back.

Some how, the way democracy is defined and taught has created this misunderstanding that the elected few will serve the electorate and do good for them.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by wintermutestwin on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:42AM (#28061565)
>Society doesn't get better because we elect the right politicians, it gets better because the people in it decide to be better

>Politicians are just a reflection of the rest of us; they will never be our salvation. We should stay informed, we should vote, but big-picture politics should be a small part of our lives. Relationships with real people, solving small-scale problems that confront those we care about, are what really count.

I've added those to my personal list of Great Quotes! Not as poetic as the Russian, but more succinct.

I sometimes wonder if gems like this are scattered throughout the social media firehose "like tears in the rain." Maybe the singularity will pick 'em up one day...

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by pjc50 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:19AM (#28058913)
> No matter how fairly the man you’ve elected will promise to cut the pie, it won’t grow in size; as a matter of fact

Pretty much the central tenet of western capitalism is that it can and will grow; indeed, all sorts of sacrifices of fairness are made in the name of increasing the total size of the pie. Nor is the total number of pie-consumers and pie-producers fixed.

It may be counter-intuitive, and it is certainly not obvious if you've spent your life in the Soviet system, but it's important to consider.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by allendoerfer on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:02AM (#28059194)
People unfortunately do not really care about the absolute amount of pie they get. They only care about getting the same amount of pie the others on the table have. They are angry if someone gets more than they get. Sometimes they do not see that this person actually has baked the pie. Others might not have had a chance to have lunch before. Unless people are starving, the absolute amount of pie does not really matter to them.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by mnd999 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:30AM (#28059382)
Brexit taught us people will vote for a much smaller pie if they think it will make others slices smaller and closer to theirs.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:29AM (#28059738)
As an outsider, a lot of conservative politics in the US only make sense if you consider that certain people are willing to burn themselves to the ground as long as they get to use those they hate most as kindling.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by refurb on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:05AM (#28059996)
That same observation is made of the other side as well - a willingness to blow up a system, even if it hurts the common man, in order to get to a supposed utopia.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by zo1 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:09AM (#28061184)
It taught me a whole lot of other things, but definitely not what you propose.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:45AM (#28060925)
At some point, the pie is large enough that the social significance of inequality in its distribution is larger than the actual value of pie.

Beyond that in some sectors capitalism can't make the pie bigger. For example, housing in desirable localities will stay a roughly equivalent part of your income.

It's also wrong that people in the Soviet Union find growth unintuitive. Until the late stages of decline, the Soviet system saw incredibly significant growth even for the average person.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:26AM (#28059720)
The problem with capitalism is that while the pie does grow, most of the slices don't and when they do, so does the hunger they are meant to satiate.

It's true that even the poorest Americans often have smartphones or even cars but it's also true that for most of them smartphones and cars have become a necessity rather than a convenience and they may still go hungry or postpone important doctor's visits to offset the cost.

The widely cited IMF statistic "demonstrating" that poverty has globally gone down over the decades has been widely debunked for using an arbitrary and meaningless definition of poverty (where you could literally be unhoused and "food insecure" without being considered poor). Sliced more realistically, the data at best demonstrates that poverty is stagnant in total numbers. At worst, it's tracking population growth.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by andrekandre on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:48PM (#28064685)

  Sliced more realistically, the data at best demonstrates that poverty is stagnant in total numbers. At worst, it's tracking population growth.
what i heard was that china greatly skews the results... does anyone have poverty numbers regionally instead of globaly i wonder? that would probably clear up alot of confusion....
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Thursday August 05, 2021 @10:57AM (#28074604)
YouTuber Unlearning Economics addresses this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo2gwS4VpHc
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by Consultant32452 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:07AM (#28061858)
Would you mind participating in a thought experiment?

I have a magic wand. When I wave it you will be reborn in any time of your choosing, past or present. You will be randomly assigned a race, gender, IQ, sexual preference, family wealth, health status, and country. What time would you choose?

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:04PM (#28066291)
I don't think this thought experiment is appropriate. On it's face you can use it to justify the status quo more or less at any time in the world. It's not a strong argument against the position that improvement is slow or stagnant.

Beyond that, no one believes that material wealth is fully useless. But we know that material wealth is not useful beyond a certain baseline to one's happiness, except as a means for the exertion of power. The hedonistic treadmill is inexorable.

If I could live in a world free of rent seeking and social domination with the equivalent of ~40k/year in material product each year, I would do it. Most of the reason most people work beyond that is to acquire fundamentally scarce goods such as housing ans land for which capitalism won't make the pie grow, is due to artifical demand brought forth by marketing, or simply doesn't actually benefit to individual happiness.

We already have fairly conclusive research on this, once you have enough money to be insulated against catastrophy and acquire stable living conditions as well as a sufficient social status, the marginal effect of increased income on your happiness is roughly zero.

Which is, by the way, not the opinion of the Soviet ideology, they were fairly committed to growth for a prolonged amount of time, though their economic system did not necessitate it to survive (geopolitically it was necessary for military reasons though)

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by Consultant32452 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:12PM (#28069388)
Acknowledging that this is the best time to be alive in no way implies it can’t be better.

You don’t get bonus points for spreading a miserable worldview.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:20AM (#28074962)
The problem with this thought experiment is that the chances of having an outcome that would be less preferable to what I have right now are extremely high regardless of my answer. There'd be a chance I'd turn into Bezos, but there's a higher chance I'd turn into a poor kid in some third world country that spends their day dumping circuit boards into vats of acid without protective equipment to make a living.

You're also completely sidestepping the original point. Defining all scientific and technological accomplishments as the products of capitalism because capitalism is the dominant system is begging the question. We know that scientific and technological accomplishments and improvements to the general quality of life were also made before capitalism existed. We don't know that capitalism has had a positive effect on these trends.

Plus if you want to take the primitivist route you could argue that if you believe the data on climate change, the status quo is literally built on killing us over the next few decades and "benefits" like getting a thousand new smartphone models each year or being able to choose between twenty nearly identical brands of bottled water are entirely offset by the externalities that are rapidly becoming tangible problems even to the wealthier among us.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by Consultant32452 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:36PM (#28080947)
Whenever someone tries to spread their miserable worldview and I present them with this thought experiment they respond in one of two ways: total silence or a novel. It's telling.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by shazeubaa on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:23PM (#28062903)
Nailed it! Well said.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by _0ffh on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:05AM (#28058490)
>big-picture politics should be a small part of our lives

I'd be happy to leave politics alone, if only politics would deign to leave me alone as well. Only it doesn't, it's a cancer that eats it's way through society until nothing outside of it is left. We either kill this cancer, or we die of it.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by lifeisstillgood on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:33PM (#28063826)
Please think again about what "politics" means to you.

Some people just think of boring men and women in suits shouting in adverts, blaming the other person for all our failures. Yeah, we all hate that.

But politics is bigger than that. To my mind it is the process through which any group of humans decides how to work together (or possibly annihilate together).

Its how we agree to build roads, schools, hospitals. Its where we build them, who builds them, who gets to use them.

It's how fairly or not we share the burdens. It's about who is an enemy and who is a friend. It's about taxes and rebates, of course, but if we dont collect and spend the taxes to, say, build a school, politics is about do we want to have someone else build the school? Is that fair? Will it educate the children correctly. Even when government does not do something politics is still there.

Because its about everyone who is not us, and how we interact with everyone who is not us.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by _0ffh on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:13PM (#28064302)
>> I propose in the following discussion to call one's own labor and the equivalent exchange of one's own labor for the labor of others, the "economic means" for the satisfaction of needs, while the unrequited appropriation of the labor of others will be called the "political means." <<

Franz Oppenheimer (1908), "The State"

Please do not confuse the social and societal with the political, that's a fallacy.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by lifeisstillgood on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:29PM (#28065895)
My simplistic understanding of Oppenheimer is "we all lived in perfect harmony, then some strong men came along and forced everyone into hierarchies and pay tax. If only we could get rid of politics and go back to living in harmony."

It's a common reaction to bad politics - dictators and purges and so on. It's surprisingly common in post Cesaer Rome - but at least they wanted to go back to a Republic.

Sorry but humans work better when they work together - from hunting Mammoths to building skyscrapers. So the answer is to find better ways to work together. I see that outcome as society and the process as politics.

Edit: an interesting example is right in the front page - https://www.leidenmedievalistsblog.nl/articles/why-medieval-... which roughly says "video games allow private industry to grow a village into a town pretty linearly, it it never worked like that because (weather / war / some bugger owned the land and would take more surplus than would let you grow - plus it was often planned like urban planner planned)

  Oppenheimer would say that's evil politics, let's stop politics, I would say that's incentives and power balance and economics and military power imbalances and lack of medical and public health.
In my (again simplistic view) it took the English and Dutch to build strong Parliaments abs financial systems that kept the monarchy in check and allowed private industry to begin to grow, and advances in public health to lay foundation for industrial revolutions.

Oppenheimers not wrong I guess, just the solution is a moderation of the politics not going back to a simpler time.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by _0ffh on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:07AM (#28071728)
> Sorry but humans work better when they work together - from hunting Mammoths to building skyscrapers. So the answer is to find better ways to work together. I see that outcome as society and the process as politics.

None of that requires politics, it requires a free market. Things do not get done forcibly, but voluntarily. Trying to get things done forcibly is immoral as well as inefficient, but it's an oh-so-sweet temptation for the profiteers of the arrangement.

Getting rid of politics will not get us back to a simpler time, it will bring us forward into a time where we can concentrate our energies on our own lives and endeavours of making the world a better place bit-by-bit instead of permanently having to fight off the incessant hectoring of wannabe know-betters, do-gooders and world-savers with grand schemes and utopian visions who think that everyone should do everything the way they think is best, "for their own good".

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by lifeisstillgood on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:32AM (#28073485)
I dont understand how people think the "free market" works without politics. Free as in if you make money someone kidnaps your children till you had over the cash? Thats forcible and immoral. Or do we have a police force to stop that? If we have a police force, who pays for that, who regulates the police? We would need some politics to decide all that.

Honestly it seems politics is just the bits of the current system that you don't like.

We all don't like some bits. If we want to change them we need to, work together to compromise on which bits we keep and which we get rid of.

Like turtles, its politics all the way down.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by _0ffh on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:20AM (#28074961)
No "we" don't need politics to decide anything! Politics is only needed to decide for other people, without their consent. A market works by voluntary interaction of individuals.

And please stop trying to explain my own motivations to me, it's really grating. It's not "bits of the current system that I don't like", it's the whole inhumane, extortionary and murderous shebang that I don't like!

It's politics all the way down only until you hit what's been buried beneath, the bedrock and basis of a true society worthy of the name, as opposed to enslavement light: the individual's freedom to make their own choices!

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by lifeisstillgood on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:58PM (#28077243)
I genuinely don't understand the idea that markets can somehow operate outside a social / political framework. Barter economies maybe but anything involving money or contracts. Imagine a free market without say any legal framework for contracts?

I remember a few years back the Libertarian party candidate saying "yes a driving license seems a good idea" and almost being forced from the job. Is that where you are coming from?

I disagree that politics is "deciding for others without their consent". That seems to describe violent dictatorships. (Yes that's a form of politics but not one I am advocating)

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by _0ffh on Thursday August 05, 2021 @03:00PM (#28078025)
I'm giving up, you just keep conflating the social and the political this is getting tiring! And no, you don't need politics to draw up contracts or have money or a legal framework, that's a thoroughly confused point of view. And yes, politics is exclusively about coercion, because if you can convince somebody to do something voluntarily you don't need politics to make them. Ultimately, all political power comes from the barrel of a gun.