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Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by pjc50 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:19AM (#28058913)
> No matter how fairly the man you’ve elected will promise to cut the pie, it won’t grow in size; as a matter of fact

Pretty much the central tenet of western capitalism is that it can and will grow; indeed, all sorts of sacrifices of fairness are made in the name of increasing the total size of the pie. Nor is the total number of pie-consumers and pie-producers fixed.

It may be counter-intuitive, and it is certainly not obvious if you've spent your life in the Soviet system, but it's important to consider.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by allendoerfer on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:02AM (#28059194)
People unfortunately do not really care about the absolute amount of pie they get. They only care about getting the same amount of pie the others on the table have. They are angry if someone gets more than they get. Sometimes they do not see that this person actually has baked the pie. Others might not have had a chance to have lunch before. Unless people are starving, the absolute amount of pie does not really matter to them.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by mnd999 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:30AM (#28059382)
Brexit taught us people will vote for a much smaller pie if they think it will make others slices smaller and closer to theirs.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:29AM (#28059738)
As an outsider, a lot of conservative politics in the US only make sense if you consider that certain people are willing to burn themselves to the ground as long as they get to use those they hate most as kindling.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by refurb on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:05AM (#28059996)
That same observation is made of the other side as well - a willingness to blow up a system, even if it hurts the common man, in order to get to a supposed utopia.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by zo1 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:09AM (#28061184)
It taught me a whole lot of other things, but definitely not what you propose.
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:45AM (#28060925)
At some point, the pie is large enough that the social significance of inequality in its distribution is larger than the actual value of pie.

Beyond that in some sectors capitalism can't make the pie bigger. For example, housing in desirable localities will stay a roughly equivalent part of your income.

It's also wrong that people in the Soviet Union find growth unintuitive. Until the late stages of decline, the Soviet system saw incredibly significant growth even for the average person.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:26AM (#28059720)
The problem with capitalism is that while the pie does grow, most of the slices don't and when they do, so does the hunger they are meant to satiate.

It's true that even the poorest Americans often have smartphones or even cars but it's also true that for most of them smartphones and cars have become a necessity rather than a convenience and they may still go hungry or postpone important doctor's visits to offset the cost.

The widely cited IMF statistic "demonstrating" that poverty has globally gone down over the decades has been widely debunked for using an arbitrary and meaningless definition of poverty (where you could literally be unhoused and "food insecure" without being considered poor). Sliced more realistically, the data at best demonstrates that poverty is stagnant in total numbers. At worst, it's tracking population growth.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by andrekandre on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:48PM (#28064685)

  Sliced more realistically, the data at best demonstrates that poverty is stagnant in total numbers. At worst, it's tracking population growth.
what i heard was that china greatly skews the results... does anyone have poverty numbers regionally instead of globaly i wonder? that would probably clear up alot of confusion....
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Thursday August 05, 2021 @10:57AM (#28074604)
YouTuber Unlearning Economics addresses this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo2gwS4VpHc
Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by Consultant32452 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:07AM (#28061858)
Would you mind participating in a thought experiment?

I have a magic wand. When I wave it you will be reborn in any time of your choosing, past or present. You will be randomly assigned a race, gender, IQ, sexual preference, family wealth, health status, and country. What time would you choose?

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by sudosysgen on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @05:04PM (#28066291)
I don't think this thought experiment is appropriate. On it's face you can use it to justify the status quo more or less at any time in the world. It's not a strong argument against the position that improvement is slow or stagnant.

Beyond that, no one believes that material wealth is fully useless. But we know that material wealth is not useful beyond a certain baseline to one's happiness, except as a means for the exertion of power. The hedonistic treadmill is inexorable.

If I could live in a world free of rent seeking and social domination with the equivalent of ~40k/year in material product each year, I would do it. Most of the reason most people work beyond that is to acquire fundamentally scarce goods such as housing ans land for which capitalism won't make the pie grow, is due to artifical demand brought forth by marketing, or simply doesn't actually benefit to individual happiness.

We already have fairly conclusive research on this, once you have enough money to be insulated against catastrophy and acquire stable living conditions as well as a sufficient social status, the marginal effect of increased income on your happiness is roughly zero.

Which is, by the way, not the opinion of the Soviet ideology, they were fairly committed to growth for a prolonged amount of time, though their economic system did not necessitate it to survive (geopolitically it was necessary for military reasons though)

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by Consultant32452 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:12PM (#28069388)
Acknowledging that this is the best time to be alive in no way implies it can’t be better.

You don’t get bonus points for spreading a miserable worldview.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by hnbad on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:20AM (#28074962)
The problem with this thought experiment is that the chances of having an outcome that would be less preferable to what I have right now are extremely high regardless of my answer. There'd be a chance I'd turn into Bezos, but there's a higher chance I'd turn into a poor kid in some third world country that spends their day dumping circuit boards into vats of acid without protective equipment to make a living.

You're also completely sidestepping the original point. Defining all scientific and technological accomplishments as the products of capitalism because capitalism is the dominant system is begging the question. We know that scientific and technological accomplishments and improvements to the general quality of life were also made before capitalism existed. We don't know that capitalism has had a positive effect on these trends.

Plus if you want to take the primitivist route you could argue that if you believe the data on climate change, the status quo is literally built on killing us over the next few decades and "benefits" like getting a thousand new smartphone models each year or being able to choose between twenty nearly identical brands of bottled water are entirely offset by the externalities that are rapidly becoming tangible problems even to the wealthier among us.

Re:A Soviet Prisoner's View on What's Important by Consultant32452 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:36PM (#28080947)
Whenever someone tries to spread their miserable worldview and I present them with this thought experiment they respond in one of two ways: total silence or a novel. It's telling.