News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by todd3834 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:26AM (#28026444)
I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office voluntarily for a day recently I can confirm that going back while the majority of the team is remote is not the same.

Things seem to be hardest for younger single employees who don’t always have great work from home environments and are also sometimes lonely. Also, some of my coworkers with kids are having a hard time being productive with pressures from kids or spouses that don’t respect the working from home boundaries. Then there are people who can’t manage the work life balance and relied on a commute to tell their brain the work day is over.

Finally, there will always be under-performers who are desperately searching for a scape goat when they fail to deliver. I’ve seen this so many times after an org change, architectural change or anything that will give someone an excuse for failing to preform. These people may or may not like their new freedom but they do like their paycheck and will use any excuse for their poor performance.

Many of these problems seem solvable without forcing employees who want to work remote to come in. I personally love working remote and would never go back to mandatory days in the office if I didn’t have to. I think the trick is for executives to wrangle all of these new challenges at once. It is so much easier to just say “make things go back to where they were” so their jobs can be less complicated. People haven’t been trained how to make this new world work. In a public company it is one more unknown to juggle when they have a responsibility to shareholders to maximize profits.

So let’s start proposing solutions and promoting them. How do we make our execs feel more comfortable to let those who want to work home do so? How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry about losing their job because they agreed to something that didn’t use to be normal?

That’s how we make this work for everyone.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cratermoon on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:20AM (#28026894)
I'd happily go back to working in the office. If I had an actual office, not a 4-foot wide folding table that's part of a line of eight of them in 12 rows in a room the size of a basketball court.

I haven't had an "office" to go to work in since 2000. I've shared spaces with anywhere from three to all of my co-workers. "Recent research shows that such offices result in 73 per cent less face-to-face interaction, and a 67 per cent increase in email interaction" https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/325959

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by trunnell on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:35PM (#28027559)
"Private offices with doors that close" - that's the standard at Fog Creek Software, the company behind Stack Overflow, Trello, and other great products. Microsoft also provides offices (or at least used to). These companies might be on to something.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-...

An opposing perspective: note that the cost for private offices is very high vs. cubes. Assuming Class A space in a premium location is around $85/sq.ft. per month [1]:

6' x 6' cube: 36 sq.ft. * $85 = $3,060/mo

8' x 10' office: 80 sq.ft. * $85 = $6,800/mo

10' x 12' office: 120 sq.ft. * $85 = $10,200/mo

What would most people choose: upgrade from cube to desk, or add $3,500/mo to their paycheck?

[1]: rental rate chart at https://www.squarefoot.com/office-space/ca/san-francisco

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:51PM (#28027734)
Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Why do you think the company would reimburse you for $3500/mo for freeing up office space or using less of it?

A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out. If you choose to work remotely or sign up for shitty work conditions, they are not going to reimburse any of the costs you just saved them.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cratermoon on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:12PM (#28027950)
> A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out.

That's the essence of another issue companies are forcing with remote work. It puts the lie to any claim that compensation is based on business value. Do I not provide the same value to the business if I live in Omaha, Nebraska rather than San Jose, California?

But, the company has offices in Menlo Park, you're more valuable because you're closer to them, you say? But the company also has offices in Omaha, and a dozens other places around the world.

This isn't theoretical: companies have already said that pay scales for remote work will be tied to location, regardless of the contribution a person makes to the company.

Employers are going to have to reckon with the fact that if I can chose to live more comfortably, I can also choose to expect to compensated for my contributions rather than my postal code. Am I worth a six-figure salary or not?

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by jatone on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:43PM (#28031713)
any company that told me the value of my work is tied to the location at which i accomplish it would immediately hit a wall with me being willing to work there.

it simply is bonkers they've tried to pull that line out.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by sfcamp2020 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:07AM (#28070081)
Agreed! Employees have to realize this is a very unique opportunity where the Companies have lost much of the strong arm wrenching used by what Human Resources has become. (basically, a way for companies to remind employees they are number and replaceable at any second.)

Companies are terrified that employees will flex some of these desires and flexibilities as not benefits, but open to as many jobs as possible. It removes their ability to keep employees focused on groveling in appreciation to be allowed to be in their presence.

If they let this go, employees may begin looking around and realizing why are the top 1% being paid ridiculous salaries with millions of shares given annually while whinning to unions, employees and anyone who can hear they have to continually cut benefits, pensions (what are those?) to barely keep profitable. (Question how can foreign companies continue to pay good benefits, have employee long term retention, etc. and not have it cause such damage to company profits?)

Employees have been trained and brainwashed for so long that only a scant few find the behvior described above as bonkers. Rather most have grown numb and believe it is normal for companies to tell them they deserve only what the company decides to toss their way.

It is bonkers they are pulling that line out, unfortunately it works very time.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by NonContro on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:11PM (#28028970)
Companies pay you minimum you're willing to accept. People don't have a habit of accepting jobs they know will cause their personal budgets to run red.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:58PM (#28029899)
That is indeed a more accurate statement.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by NonContro on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:38PM (#28031318)
As an aside, its also a a reason why immigration from poor countries is so dangerous - people in the 2nd/3rd world have much simpler lifestyles and are thus willing to accept much lower salaries.

Note, I am from Ukraine, and I am speaking from personal experience moving to the USA. My American friends eat out all the time, buy very expensive home appliances, and tip extremely generously.

I live a frugal life since this is the standard of living I am accustomed to from my homeland. I was also willing to accept the lowest salary legally possible just to get into the country, which is already a huge upgrade to my income.

I also can't then change jobs easily, since the visa is tied to my employer.

If Tech workers want to maintain this state of demand, they should really oppose immigration from poor countries, such as requiring that the H1B visa has a maximum cap of 10% from any one country, which will have the effect of limiting the number of Indians who enter. Setting an additional maximum cap of 49% males from any one country would also be good to encourage gender diversity, instead of flooding in male migrants and then forcing companies to do it.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by sfcamp2020 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:38AM (#28070244)
I see your point and agree with thing you’re saying in general. However, this impacts US workers due to the following:

- Visa workers paid less for a job with a higher rate of lay is illegal. The paperwork and justification to offer jobs to visa workers clearly makes the company liable for Fraud, Illegal Hiring, etc, etc. problem is to stop it things just happen:

   - they must be turned in
   - the US Govt must stop turning a blind eye 
   - companies at fault and convicted must face real consequences (fining a company $5 to $10M for this when savings over multiple positions over time has saved them 10x, 100x or more than the fine is useless
 - CEO, CFO, etc jailed no less than 10 years per instance (10 year min time served)
 - company fined out of business on 2nd or 3rd instance
NEXT…

- Americans can leave on lower lifestyle cost but refuse (tech high pay jobs, obviously not everyone) - Americans need to be educated in jobs as well. Many times positions go infilled as no available US worker or the $150k per year doesn’t allow to live and eat in places like the Bay Area and Americans while forced to share housing here couldn’t imagine to share a room with 4 or 5 or 6 others.

Yes visa worker process needs to be massively reworked and politicians need to stop screwing Americans for lobbyists pouring money, etc at them to bend to the business needs. But a lot is also caused by Americans keeping up appearances and government allowing the cost of housing and living to be so out of control.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Monday August 02, 2021 @09:59PM (#28044943)
I am actually in a very similar position to yours and agree with most of your points. I also assume you are in tech. I don't know what the immigration situation as a whole is, but I'm not sure tech is a good example of immigrants driving salaries down. Also, isn't it technically illegal for a company to pay the immigrant less? Rather than imposing limits on immigration, which I think is what the average conservative mindset would push for, I'd argue that companies should be punished for exploiting their workers -- regardless of where they come from.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by trunnell on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:59PM (#28027815)
It's just a thought experiment. It's one thing to say offices are good. It's another to say their benefit outweighs the cost.

I think the added cost may be worth it, but I'd be surprised to find majority agreement.

> A company basically pays you for your cost of living

I'd argue that companies generally pay market rates for employees, which in a well-functioning market will be well above the cost of living.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:10PM (#28027928)
For what it's worth, I had the luck of working in an actual office, with walls and doors that close (it honestly sounds quite absurd to describe it this way; how low have we sunk?) and I prefer it very much that way for the same reasons described in your link.

And agree on the last statement, I had over-simplified that, though I did add the word "basically".

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cratermoon on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:47PM (#28030371)
> upgrade from cube to desk

Wait, you get cubes? That would be an upgrade compared to the open offices I am talking about. I mean open-plan offices, where each worker gets a flat surface, a rolling filing cabinet, and a power outlet.

I'd almost go back to one job where I had a cube, because the cubes there were maybe 8' (2-1/2m) square, high-walled, enough desk space to spread out, and even a personal coat closet/locker with a door. Make it another foot or two high, put on a cover and a door that closes and I wouldn't care that it was made out of cheap fiberboard covered in ugly carpet.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by bradlys on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:10PM (#28028968)
I think those are rates per year - not per month. So maybe make that contribution to your paycheck per year - not per month. (Kinda surprised no one here knows that and hasn’t mentioned it yet)

Source in case you don’t believe me: https://www.squarefoot.com/leasopedia/dollars-cents-much-cos...

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by trunnell on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:55PM (#28031438)
You're right! My bad.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by bradlys on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:16PM (#28031551)
Kinda changes your whole point. $10k/yr for a $400k/yr engineer is really not much at all. $10k/month is but $10k/yr is definitely not. Rounding error, basically.

And - personally - I might even take the $10k/yr pre-tax deduction for a nice private office. Certainly much cheaper than trying to do it at my own place.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cratermoon on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:53PM (#28028405)
I fondly remember days in my last office. It was ground-level in a small building, with a window that faced a small tree-lined space behind the building. I could sit at my desk and think while watching the birds and squirrels, and on a wintry day the snow would hang on the leaves.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by sokoloff on Sunday August 01, 2021 @06:11PM (#28030613)
Commercial property when quoted as “$X/sq ft” means an annual rental charge, not monthly.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by mattkrause on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:49PM (#28027717)
Your employer might get some, all, or even more than the $3,500 differential back through increased productivity, less churn, etc.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by thefunnyman on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @03:57PM (#28053393)
Microsoft used to provide offices but has been slowly doing away with them in favor of open office spaces. From what I understand, any new buildings they construct are designed around open offices.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by triceratops on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:50PM (#28027721)
Why are you assuming employees are currently getting the cost savings from cubicles?
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by dilyevsky on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:54PM (#28030449)
These are annual prices. Before covid you could get a private office in sfba for ~$10-12k/y in a coworking space. Cheaper if you get 2-3 person spaces
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by trunnell on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:55PM (#28031434)
Oops, those costs should be per month, not per year... but now I can't edit the post.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by geodel on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:23PM (#28028076)
While I totally agree with what you just said. "Recent research" part is dangerous and somehow works in favor employers overall. It is for very simple reason that employers can sponsor vastly more research that can save business a penny while making employees' life miserable along the way.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cratermoon on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:56PM (#28028428)
> works in favor employers overall

Knowledge is power. Research has certainly been turned to socially questionable ends. See, for example, the iffy research churned out by the tobacco companies to counter the overwhelming evidence that smoking causes cancer, heart disease, and a host of other issues.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by sugarpile on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:55AM (#28026672)
While I truly do appreciate the cooperative tone, as someone who never intends to set foot in an office again except by choice (outside of onboarding), I think this is a rare event that has reduced the power asymmetry and should be taken advantage of.

How do we make execs more comfortable? Simple, we make it so they have no choice to be uncomfortable with. Allow full remote or lose a significant portion of your workforce in the middle of a hiring crunch with already existing insane hiring demand. This may not play at Apple, for example, but it’s what I’ve already seen play out at my company (including for me specifically) and I see no reason it wouldn’t work at any non-FANG. It’s not a bluff or bluster, I’d leave if my company doubled down on forcing people back on a hybrid schedule and truthfully I may leave anyway over frustration with their initial attempts to do so despite exempting me and others.

My team and office is in a very precarious position with two of our best engineers having left over the initial attempts to force hybrid. I truly think if it was forced again my the fallout may be fatal for my team.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by ekster on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:48AM (#28027125)
I left a C level position over going back into the office even 2 days a week. There were plenty of options to go to an all remote company - I had three offers before choosing where I would go. There are just a ton of permanently remote jobs out there at the moment.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by bsder on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:22PM (#28031199)
> While I truly do appreciate the cooperative tone, as someone who never intends to set foot in an office again except by choice (outside of onboarding), I think this is a rare event that has reduced the power asymmetry and should be taken advantage of.

Why do you assume that this won't result in you being replaced?

Sure, employers are paying a premium for remote work for the moment. That's a great demand right now and you absolutely should take advantage of that. Supply will adjust to compensate--developers willing to take less are flocking into the system. Companies are adjusting to be able to deal with workers not in their local jurisdictions.

Once that shakes out (and it will happen quicker than you think)--why shouldn't I lay off your expensive salary? If you can be completely remote, what value do you bring over someone else completely remote who is a bit cheaper? This is the classic race to the bottom problem.

Apparently programmers learned nothing from outsourcing. Management doesn't really care about how good you are. Most programmers aren't geniuses working on world shattering problems. They're doing the same thing that a thousand other programmers have done before.

The only people likely to survive this well are, in fact, the people who have a genuine need to be in the office.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by h4waii on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:50AM (#28026627)
Well said, I do want to point out that some of those who want to go back "to be surrounded by their coworkers" might be missing the fact that those who don't want to back might be because they don't want to be surrounded by their coworkers; they want to be surrounded by people they choose to have relationships with, not ones foisted upon them.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by zepto on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:03AM (#28026748)
I’m a generally introverted person who prefers to work from home and performs better either at home or with a private office.

That said, I have worked for many different companies, and rarely felt like working relationships were ‘foisted’ upon me.

I generally enjoyed interacting with colleagues because we were working towards a common goal - i.e. we had something meaningful which we cared about in common.

The one company where this wasn’t true had a cultural separation between product and infrastructure engineering, with a lack of mutual respect that flowed from the top of the organization.

My point is that if people don’t feel common purpose with their coworker that enables them to find satisfaction in their working relationships, that points to a company culture problem.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by khyryk on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:40AM (#28027062)
How many companies would you estimate have cultures with such problems? If they're quite numerous, then it seems to me that remote work removes a high risk of landing into an unsatisfying role while paying the price for having to still go to the office -- this lack of satisfaction is much easier to deal with at home where one doesn't have to pretend to be engaged so long as work gets done.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by zepto on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:04PM (#28027280)
I agree with you in that at the company with the culture issue, working from home was ultimately the only way I could be productive and not hate my job. I did it for a while before ultimately leaving.

However it is definitely not a solution to an actual culture problem. Ideally, working from home should be a choice because it suits the individual’s needs, not a way to separate from dysfunction.

I think culture problems are quite common. Plenty of people report them, on the other hand I haven’t run into them all that often, and there are many people here who report reasonable cultures.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by MattGaiser on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:55AM (#28026666)
Yes. I am a young single guy who is not really a fan of the office. A lot of that is simply that have already filled all my available relationship time.

Adding new people requires removing other people or reducing my productivity to make more time available.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by jonathankoren on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:46PM (#28027679)
“Filled your relationship time”? What are you expecting these coworker relationships to be? Dates? They’re coworkers. I’ve rarely interacted with coworkers outside of work.

Also, I don’t think you’re going to have much of a problem socializing if you’re going around humblebragging about how you’ve optimized your work and personal time for peak employee performance.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by MattGaiser on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:28PM (#28028651)
I am defining “relationship” more broadly to encompass all my human (and dog in my case) relationships.

I am not humblebragging about optimization. I have 24 hours in a day. They are generally all spoken for, meaning that for something to go in, something else must go out.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @06:39PM (#28030858)
I don't understand how (and I think I've seen people implying it a lot besides you) office socialization takes away from socialization with other people elsewhere.

Don't you, like, have to work during those hours regardless of your environment? Even working for the government, they kind of expect that.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by thefunnyman on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:09PM (#28053531)
You never take breaks during the work day?
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by perl4ever on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:45PM (#28055651)
My breaks aren't anywhere near 8 hours.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by jonathankoren on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:52PM (#28028831)
You said you were young, so let this old person give you some advice. If you think interacting with coworkers is opposed to being a productive employee, you’re gravely mistaken. Also if you think you need to optimally schedule every day to maximize work, you need to rethink your life.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by whateveracct on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:36PM (#28029676)
> If you think interacting with coworkers is opposed to being a productive employee

Being productive is as much a waste of my time as interacting with coworkers.

I basically have every day mostly free because I'm just productive Enough and work remote. I am leaving an insane amount of (for-employer) productivity on the table and instead giving myself that productivity.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by biasedbrain on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:15PM (#28027379)
Didn't they choose their jobs, and with that, their co-workers?

I'd like to see them argue "I don't want to come to the office because I don't like to be surrounded by people like you" as well. Is that a common argument?

I think people who are unhappy with their working conditions should just look for another job. It's fine to try to convince bosses that changes would be beneficial, but I don't have much sympathy for all the whining.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:30PM (#28027508)
I see what you mean, but I think there is a bit of a hidden fallacy here. Work is work for many people and not a fun place to socialize, despite this common and widespread idea that for some reason we should be doing the latter. Also, most people do not even get to choose their co-workers anyway. So it's not that one absolutely dreads being around their co-workers, but rather, it just boils down to one question: where you want to be glued to a chair? In a shitty cube in an open space office where you are bombarded by distractions after a 45min commute of smoking exhaust gas and air pollution from traffic, or at home, where none of the just mentioned conditions exist?

I kind of concur with the original comment too. Single guys in their 20s might want to go back to socialize, perhaps driven by this idea of socializing at work. Guys in their 30s, low on kool-aid reserves, no kids but maybe partner, might prefer to stay at home. Once the kids show up, now you have an external force that might push you back into the office. Guy in his 50s with grown-up kids? He's having a hell of a blast retiring in a remote cabin while cashing in on the big bucks. Unless he is a VP or a micro-manager; then he might be miserable for his inability to crush people's lives remotely.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by biasedbrain on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:39PM (#28028730)
I have nothing against work just being work, but I think there are different types of companies for a reason. If you want work to just be work, you can choose a company that treats work just as work and doesn't expect you to become one big family.

Like if you give the example of young people and old people - fair enough, then maybe young people are better of looking for jobs where they work together with other young people, and people in their 50ies are better off in jobs with other old people.

Ultimately companies are not created for the benefit of employees, but to create stuff. They try to be good to employees to be able to attract and keep talented staff.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by caskstrength on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:56PM (#28028423)
> Didn't they choose their jobs, and with that, their co-workers?

What do you mean? Did they tell you about guy with questionable hygiene and that other guy with chronic allergy that makes him cough all day long during your interview?

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by biasedbrain on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:36PM (#28028699)
If they learned that they have awful coworkers, they can quit again.

I just don't get the sense of entitlement many people seem to have.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by caskstrength on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:48PM (#28028805)
I agree that some of radical pro-WFH people might seem entitled, but I think in reality they just too fed up with open-spaces and commute and see pandemic as their last chance to normalize WFH across the industry. Also, I honestly don't see why it is such a big deal to let every team decide how they want to work.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by biasedbrain on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:11PM (#28028974)
There seem to be companies that embrace WFH, so if I was in that situation, I would strive to become employed at such a company.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by stjohnswarts on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:22PM (#28028612)
Or they can continue to argue for work from home. Lots of people are not "people" extrovert types and prefer working solo with only a bit of contact with other people. It doesn't matter who the other people are.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by edem on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:38PM (#28029178)
Agree __100%__. Now that it is proven what we've already known for a very long time (as a programmer I have no business sitting in an office), let's just not waste our time anymore.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by trunnell on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:16AM (#28026862)
There's wisdom in this comment. But note that the dynamics of the conversation are a function of company culture. "Make execs comfortable" is a reflection of culture.

Another path is to simply hold leaders accountable for output rather than working style. After all, is it acceptable for a team to under-deliver if they worked hard & worked in the office? Usually not. Working in the office is not sufficient to produce the right output.

If you hold leaders accountable for output, you can then let them decide how their team will work. It's way easier to solve this problem in a discussion among 5 team members than in a written policy for 500 or 5000.

One last tip: collaborating is much easier when a team is 100% remote or 100% in the office, but split is much harder. When everyone is remote all communication must be available remotely (and typically written). When everyone is in the office, it's easy to swivel the chairs around for a quick impromptu chat. But impromptu chats leave out the people who aren't there - that's why half local and half remote is harder.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by geodel on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:48PM (#28028357)
Yes, you are right in holding leaders accountable. But I feel in my experience leadership has mafia like power over employees. IN this situation what's theirs is theirs but what's mine is always up for negotiation.

> One last tip: collaborating is much easier when a team is 100% remote or 100% in the office, but split is much harder.

While this maybe true for best outcomes. IMO even flexible work policy is better for people like me who are stuck in hellish commutes 5 days a week. 2-3 days in office is similar outcome and avoiding 3 hr /day commute times for couple of days a week.

> it's easy to swivel the chairs around for a quick impromptu chat.

This used to be true for me also 5-7 years back. However lately all important tech decisions comes from "enterprise architects" and what's left is sufficient for a webex call.

Also in my case team is distributed and of course travel is not approved for lowly engineers to have face to face collaboration. But nonetheless commute is mandatory. So the rule seems collaborate with remote co-workers but only from office.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by trunnell on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:59PM (#28031455)
Agreed, I've seen a hybrid schedule work well, where a team chooses which days they will all be in the office.

> However lately all important tech decisions comes from "enterprise architects"

Honestly that sounds terrible.

> of course travel is not approved for lowly engineers...

Maybe look around for better company to work for. There are great teams out there.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by bradleyjg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:57AM (#28026688)
I certainly don’t have all the answers, but a few observations:

1) Starting remote seems tougher than going remote. It’s a bit rough on families but maybe an extended in person onboarding trip is a good compromise.

2) Face to face connections have to be renewed every once in a while. Co-location trips are going to become a cost of being remote, I think.

3) Some people come across badly over video. Not sure if there’s some kind a training and/or technological answer but it’s a problem and if it can’t be solved those people are not going to thrive remote even if everything else lines up.

4) All other things being equal the relationship is always going to be more transactional for remote workers. It’s just human nature to feel closer to people you regularly bump into and eat meals with.

That’s not necessarily a horrible thing in an industry that blurs the line between work and life, but it does mean you need to be on the top of your game in terms of being productive and making sure people know it.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by MattGaiser on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:03AM (#28026743)
I started a job remotely. A lot of the problems with remote onboarding to me were because of broken things that conversations could quickly fix, making fixing it properly too onerous.

For example, when I was setting up my local environment I needed a token. What token? Not specified. So I had to ask someone else and wait for a reply. It turns out I could have gotten the token myself.

In a prior job, I needed at least 10 instructions from senior developers on setting up my local environment as the readme was very out of date. It caused a lot of problems for the next guy coming on board.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by bradleyjg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:12AM (#28026834)
That’s the kind of thing that can and should be fixed by every person that gets onboarded updating the onboarding docs.

The thing I find more problematic with remote onboarding followed by remote work is that there’s no relationship building. There needs to be some play in the joints for a team to work. Getting to know teammates as real people, and not just an image on a screen and some IM messages, makes it more likely you will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by notpachet on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:51AM (#28026637)
> Many of these problems seem solvable without forcing employees who want to work remote to come in.

Agreed. Most of the issues that you highlighted that cause employees to prefer being in-office (loneliness, children and other distractions at home, work/life balance) are not attributable to being remote per se. Exacerbated by it, sure. But we should probably be addressing those problems head-on in a more intentional way.

For instance, I've seen a lot of younger devs opining about wanting to go back to the office to reinvigorate their sense of social participation. But I'm not sure that's something we should be encouraging. (It actually runs counter to the work/life balance problem you mentioned.) Compared to cultivating friendships outside of the office, socializing at work is empty calories.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by goalieca on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:55AM (#28026673)
> (It actually runs counter to the work/life balance problem you mentioned

I’m not an old fart but I’m on my way. I find is brilliant to talk about house repairs and kids and vacation tips with my colleagues. It really brings some chill to an otherwise chaotic day in an absolutely volatile industry.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by nucleardog on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:56PM (#28028863)
I still do this remote.

I meet with my team once a day for 15-20 mins, and once a week for a full hour. I meet with each of the team leads once a week for a half hour. I meet with my boss once a week for an hour.

This is important for a few reasons:

1. Keeping coordinated with work. We get that out of the way first.

2. Replacing the work-type water cooler conversation. There’s a lot of problems, random thoughts and questions, etc that may never rise to the level of scheduling an actual meeting but are valuable to resolve. The meeting is already there and the time is already spent, so the barrier and cost to bringing these up are nil. This has led to a lot of improvements and moving things forward in a way they wouldn’t have been otherwise.

3. Personal connection. Once we’ve got the work sorted out, just hang out and chat for a few minutes about all the things you’ve mentioned.

I spend like 5-6 hours a week on meetings like this, just beginning/end of day so it’s not a interruption to anyone and everyone I’ve asked finds these meetings valuable.

We’ve had to onboard a lot of people since we went remote and I’ve developed good working and personal relationships with many of them. And I still get the chance to ramble about home repairs and kids.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by notpachet on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:59AM (#28026706)
To be clear, I'm not saying you can't socialize with coworkers; I enjoy that, too. It just shouldn't be someone's only source of nourishment.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by ramdomjoe on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:28AM (#28033201)
I work currently in distributed team and if you want water cooler chat you can join status meeting some half an hour before and have that. There is always someone online already.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by watwut on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:01AM (#28026732)
> wanting to go back to the office to reinvigorate their sense of social participation. But I'm not sure that's something we should be encouraging. (It actually runs counter to the work/life balance problem you mentioned.)

I have seen this multiple times already - overtime and long hours that are largely composed of socialization in disguise or very ineffective work. Mostly serving as a way to fill in void or have someone to talk to.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:20PM (#28027421)
> How do we make our execs feel more comfortable to let those who want to work home do so? How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry about losing their job because they agreed to something that didn’t use to be normal?

Looks like you work for a relatively good company. Others have, for example, threatened with dropping health insurance unless the workers come back -- yes, in the middle of a pandemic. I am not sure those execs care about how you make them feel. Therefore, my answer to your question, is to organize and fight back. It's a class struggle, not a happy conversation.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by srswtf123 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:52PM (#28027745)
Agreed, this is the struggle. Look at whats being asked here, its frankly absurd:

How do we make our execs feel more comfortable ...

How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry ...

Some of the corporations I've worked, the execs seemed to absolutely revel in their ability to make their employees uncomfortable and worried. I give not one whit to their comfort and worries so long as they act like sociopaths or worse. This class of people hasn't had to worry in a generation. Hasn't been uncomfortable in decades.

So the pandemic reveals the charade, and we're just supposed to all agree that is isn't a charade and go back to acting like good human resources? We have been so overworked, for so long, that we get a long moment to rest -- the pandemic -- and realize the culture, the society, its just awful. What have these stewards of the economy given us, and guided us toward? Empty lives, endless work, a seemingly dying ecosystem, endless consumption, pointless entertainment.

This isn't class struggle, its class war. A war the lower class is clearly already losing.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:55PM (#28027773)
I am with you 200%. Just giving the original poster the benefit of doubt.

I think the post makes the mistake of assuming that we are one equal footing with corporate execs and that this is, somehow, a conversation. But let's just give them room to expand on their thoughts.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by Buttons840 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:33PM (#28027540)
> Things seem to be hardest for younger single employees who don’t always have great work from home environments and are also sometimes lonely. Also, some of my coworkers with kids are having a hard time being productive with pressures from kids or spouses that don’t respect the working from home boundaries.

I agree this is a reality and has to be considered.

But we need to acknowledge that this is people's personal problems coming into the workplace. If there is going to be a compromise, at some point I'm going to at least want it acknowledged that Bob's personal problems are the reason I can no longer interact with my new born baby a few time throughout the day, and will thus spend significantly less time with them during this brief phase of their life. I also want it acknowledged that Bob's personal problems are the reason my risk of early death in a car accident are greatly increased. Otherwise, I'm going to feel that any "compromise" is forced.

It's a hard problem.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by perl4ever on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:25PM (#28031969)
>Bob's personal problems are the reason I can no longer interact with my new born baby a few time throughout the day

If you don't get paid family leave for several months in that situation, that's not your co-worker's fault. That's how it's supposed to work.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by Buttons840 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:44PM (#28032063)
It's just an example. The point is a co-workers is dealing with his personal problems by forcing other people to do things they would rather not.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by r00f on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:03PM (#28027866)
Don't you find it selfish that someone is forced to start commuting to office again, only because somebody wanted to be surrounded by coworkers?

I've been fully remote since 2010, and I would be completely frustrated if I was told "You need to sit at the office now, because John is feeling different in half-empty office"

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by chaostheory on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:51PM (#28028826)
Let’s not forget all of the pollution that rush hour traffic entails. Even if you drive an EV, there’s still the prospect of pollution from tires.

Everyone likes to talk about supporting efforts for climate change until they are presented with an actionable choice that negatively affects their personal habits.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by closeparen on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:17PM (#28028015)
I find it selfish that someone expects me to treat them like a teammate when they can’t be bothered to show up.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by youeseh on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:45PM (#28028319)
What does "show up" mean when the technology allows you to "show up", and fulfill all of a job's requirements remotely?
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by closeparen on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:49PM (#28029262)
What does “team” mean when the technology allows you to build perfectly good software by exchanging short, on-topic, asynchronous messages with a rotating cast of anonymous strangers?

I don’t think it’s necessary to be physically present to build software, but if you do go remote, go all the way. Trying to build a sense of camaraderie over Zoom is a tragic farce.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by youeseh on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:07PM (#28029984)
My team is distributed around the US. A number of people joined after the pandemic started, which forced the firm to go from fully in-house to fully-remote overnight.

Our experience is that a team that works together to solve problems builds camaraderie. The tools and tech are all there and very easy and affordable.

A few weeks ago we met up for lunch after being away from each other for over a year. Nothing about our meeting gave us the impression that we'd grown apart from working remotely.

Of course, the size of your investment and your returns may vary.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by lcam84 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:26AM (#28026942)
You don't need to work from home we can find/create spaces near your with like minded people in your community. Productivity is not the main reason big tech want people back to cubicles. They need to justify the spaceship shaped offices they built and also they need keep our consumption high. As describe in this post that's also trending on HN [0], the best way to do this is to remove spare time on our lives (ex: long commutes). https://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already...
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by adjkant on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:18PM (#28027405)
I've very much liked what my company/team/office is doing so far:

1. No hard rules on when to be in the office, simply that you must be close enough to make it into the office when you need to.

2. All meetings are remote first unless everyone is in the office (protects disadvantaging people who don't choose to come in)

3. A slack channel for people to coordinate when they will be in the office. This is big as it means that people can group together when they want to socialize easily, so it's 20 people in on one day vs 4 diff people in a day in a week. I've seen team coordinate this as well, often with social activities after.

4. Cross-team social events that encourage people to go into the office without having any professional consequences when you don't come in. In person hackathons, a many game long Catan tournament, etc.

I think there's much more to sort out, but generally this seems to have few complaints. Everyone gives up a little here, but it is very flexible. Some examples:

- The people who want to be in for social reasons can be

- Those who work better in an office / separation from home can come in whenever they want

- Have a new hire? Everyone can try to come in for the first week to help onboard and get to know people, then go back to mainly remote.

- The people who want full remote get most of what they want and don't get professionally disadvantaged by not being in the literal room. The only downside is having to be near an office, but they can easily do a few weeks working from completely remote location X still.

I think many full remote people who want to get out of major cities will have qualms with the last one, but I think those people are looking for fully remote companies without any hybrid model. I'm all for that existing and becoming more popular, but I think we have to realize that the hybrid model simply can't fully accommodate these people, and the answer is to split our models. One open question then is can you split that model at a team/org level, or does it have to be at the company level?

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by closeparen on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:20PM (#28028040)
The return on investment in physical presence is conversations that aren’t mediated by Zoom. If you’re going to have a rule of using Zoom anyway, there’s no point.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by adjkant on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:31PM (#28028187)
I think you're significantly underestimating the value of many other aspects:

- Things that happen outside of meetings, which are what the remote-video rule is for, not everything categorically. e.g. debugging together when in, white-boarding, the quick desk visit, etc. As I said, teams can (and do) coordinate to come in on the same day

- Socially, the return being happier workers, better teamwork to fall back on when you're remote, etc.

- The people who do not have a good home office setup for many various reasons that affect both young and old.

There are countless benefits, there's no magical "this is the reason to be in the office" that you can reduce to. The "video conferencing by default" rule is the tradeoff for not disadvantaging people who want to retain their less frequent office time schedule of the pandemic.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by lottaFLOPS on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:22AM (#28026914)
I really appreciated how this captures the varied perspectives on remote vs. in-office work in a nuanced way.

I also think you hit the nail on the head in explaining the incentives and default behavior we’ve seen from executives. Before the pandemic, I heard the same explanation for open office plans, despite intense dislike from many: “well, around 50% don’t like this, but we can’t please everyone.”

The only solution I can think of is not mandating a single solution. Allowing individuals/teams to choose what works best for them is more complicated and risky, but also offers the greatest potential. I’m not sure there’s a way to make execs feel more comfortable with this approach though. It is risky, and it requires a lot of trust.

I’m hopeful as more companies take the leap to flexible remote policies, the results will speak for themselves. If the fears among the more conservative/risk-averse execs aren’t realized, opinions may soften. At the same time, I’m expecting there will be enough anecdotes to serve as “evidence” for any staunchly-held perspective.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by animanoir on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:59AM (#28027227)
I find astonishing that some people want to go back into the cage.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by throwaway6734 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:11PM (#28030020)
I've been going back to the office 3 days a week and am loving it. I find it much easier to get into deep work, put in longer days, and maximizing my productivity.

The two wfh days become almost half days due to banked up hours while in the office.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by 3gg on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:37PM (#28027572)
They are ready to rumble.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by CodeGlitch on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:12PM (#28027357)
Agreed. Stockholm syndrome?
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by closeparen on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:23PM (#28028083)
I find it astonishing that people think sitting in their own homes all week is reasonable behavior for an adult, let alone a behavior that others should accommodate.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by animanoir on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:04PM (#28028493)
But I don't sit all week; I work, I work out, I read, I'm with my family, sometimes we go to the park. Going to an office destroys times like these.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by chaostheory on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:46PM (#28028790)
That’s the thing. It doesn’t have to be your home. You could be at the park or outdoor restaurant. If you’re lucky enough, it could be your backyard. The freedom to choose where you work is nice.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by pm90 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:58AM (#28026700)
I don’t see why those that want to work remotely need to suppress their needs for those that do not. It’s one thing to have the freedom to choose the option you’re comfortable with, but to force it on those unwilling to so doesn’t seem right.

You’re right that it won’t be the same. We’re past the point where everyone being in the office was the unquestioned norm because we never really tried mass remote work on a large scale. But we have now, and it worked just fine.

Companies and employees need to figure out solutions that don’t involve forcing people to do something they don’t like just to “get back to where we were”.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cdrini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:05PM (#28027296)
Seems like the comment was asking for some solutions. It didn't propose going back to where things were.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by pm90 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:04PM (#28027872)
Ah, apologies I missed that. I guess what I want to stress is that forcing everyone to return to the office should not be considered a valid option.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by mensetmanusman on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:51PM (#28028828)
Give management a new role: ‘make the office worth going to’

e.g. no meetings in dusty conference rooms that could be done remote, instead, actual interactive events that are occasional but useful for relationship building and collaboration.

The future of going in 5 days a week is gone, the pandemic and the internet killed that. When you do get the team to go in, make it worth it.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by UnpossibleJim on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:15AM (#28026851)
What I think you've hit on brilliantly here, that a lot of companies seem to be having trouble implementing, is there is no one size fits all policy.

This is an incredibly difficult thing for management to implement and write policy for. Now, if you look at my previous posts, I'm known to have made fun of a bloated middle management structure cough once or twice, but in this very specific case, it might actually be able to be used to the benefit of the employees. Using that middle management to reach out, communicate and facilitate the needs and wants while the infrastructure is in place can make a truly hybrid structure work for everyone and review based on work performed, not time in office (like it should be, anyway - though generally is).

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by gz5 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:01AM (#28026731)
Exactly - different strokes for different folks. Therefore, there is no one size fits all approach. The same was true before the pandemic - 100% in office was not ideal for everyone.

Mature in-office companies - generally larger companies with established business models and median employee tenures of 5+ years - have it the most difficult. Some may have rapidly adjusted during the pandemic. But other in-office companies will not adapt so quickly - people were hired into a certain culture, got used to it, build core processes, systems, workstyles etc. Even if in-office wasn't ideal for them, and it wouldn't have been for all of them, it is ingrained. For those companies, if they choose to go hybrid or remote now because they feel it makes more sense long term, they still may have a multi-year adjustment, and that may include losing some people and gaining others. So, if you are one of those companies, this may represent a massive refactoring type decision and the complex systems between people and processes can be difficult to refactor.

Would love to hear from folks at these types of companies (we have always been remote-first so can't really put ourselves in their shoes) who are successfully pulling off that refactoring.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by caskstrength on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:46PM (#28028328)
This looks like balanced and well articulated position. Would be nice if executives of big companies stop being hypocrites and provided such explanations to their employees instead of "bUt mUh cOllAbOrAtIvE cUltUrE!!1" and "performance gotten approximately 3 billion times worse since WFH started".
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by edem on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:37PM (#28029169)
> they want to be surrounded by their coworkers

Oh, I see. And I want to be surrounded by family and friends. Coworkers are....well, coworkers.

> going back while the majority of the team is remote is not the same

Going back while I don't want to go back is not only not the same, it is __completely different__

> kids or spouses that don’t respect the working from home boundaries

Now, this is the problem of the worker. Just because person X can't reason with their family shouldn't mean that __I__ have to go into an office.

> relied on a commute to tell their brain the work day is over

This makes absolutely no sense. If they want a commute they can go to a coworking space. Commute itself is the reason why I __will never__ go to an office again. I'm not gonna waste a minute on something I'm not getting paid for.

> How do we make our execs feel more comfortable

Why would I want that? There are many more employees than execs. Why wouldn't we want to focus on making the employees comfortable so that they can perform well?

> no exec has to worry about losing their job because they agreed to something that didn’t use to be normal

What does this even mean?

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by samstave on Sunday August 01, 2021 @06:14PM (#28030640)
Another option is to allow either 2-days home, 3-in office... or 3-days home and 2-days in... but maybe make it so that only wednesday is the only day where everyone has to be in office....

However - how many people have moved away from a commutable distance during the 1 year WFH period?

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by Andrew_nenakhov on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:54AM (#28026661)
If an employer wants their workers to work in the office, they should work in the office.

Workers who want to work remote can find employers who are ok with remote work. It isn't like there is a shortage of companies that allow remote work.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by Ericson2314 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:37AM (#28027038)
With employers being much fewer, the no-poach stuff, etc. this is a bad solution. Employers have always been more organized and holding more market power than employees.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by Andrew_nenakhov on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:59AM (#28027229)
No-poach stuff? There are literally millions of companies that allow remote work, are they all part of the no-poach cartel?
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by abz10 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:16PM (#28027386)
Some tech jobs are only available in a handful of companies that were a part of the cartel. Some of us took the bet that a big investment in education in one of these specialties would pay off. The cartel effectively suppressed the pay off. Now these companies are complaining that the supply of specialists has dried up.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by chaostheory on Sunday August 01, 2021 @05:07PM (#28029983)
With recent limits on H1B, those companies aren’t wrong to say that the supply has dried up. That said, it means we have more leverage when it comes to remote work. If it means changing companies, so be it.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by abz10 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @06:34PM (#28030821)
US companies are now being hoisted by their own petard.

There are not that many exploitable smart people left, even internationally. In my applied research niche they already hired internationally and the ability was rare, being high functioning autistic was basically a prerequisite. Supply dried up because these people have better options now; start ups, finance, crypto, independent scientists, more promising companies in their home countries.

It’s much easier for me to change companies than for companies to change. I’ve been remote for 7 years and will retire long before going back to an office.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by thedevilslawyer on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:32PM (#28027528)
Are you sure? The most I've seen on job boards are about 200 to 400 remote companies. Even assuming a magnitude more no more than a couple thousand. Your assumption on literal numbers are off and need significant correction.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by Andrew_nenakhov on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:59PM (#28027813)
There are estimated 10,7 million companies in the US. US has roughly 1/ world's GDP, so we can estimate that there are at least 40 million companies in the world (a figure around 100M+ looks more realistic estimate to me, but let's stick to 40M).

Simple DDG search [1] says that somewhere around 45-80% of companies are pro-remote. Which definitely puts the number of such companies into TENS of millions.

[1]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=percentage+of+companies+allowing+r...

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by thedevilslawyer on Sunday August 01, 2021 @01:18PM (#28028022)
Tech companies?
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by acituan on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:59AM (#28027230)
> it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office.

Do you mean the majority? Because that is not true. The percentage of employees that want to go back and that doesn't want to go back are both significant and comparable. The question, as you say, is how to make everyone happy, but the meta-question is, does everyone really need to be happy?

A hybrid solution makes the "officer"s partially happy but non-"officer"s completely unhappy. A flexible solution makes officers happy and at advantage, but non-officers at a career disadvantage for being deprived of, among other good things, also all the schmoozing, self-marketing etc that takes place.

Also the breakdown of the "employees" is important. Not just execs but also mid-managers seem to be particularly unhappy with current setup because having the self-organizing IC to IC interactions reduced, managers' organization and coordination skills have been put under serious test. I am not saying only bad managers want RTO, but their shortcomings do get foregrounded more.

> Finally, there will always be under-performers who are desperately searching for a scape goat when they fail to deliver.

I think this is another problem of the managers' performance. Now it is up to their capabilities to steer up or weed out those chronic scape-goaters.

Also I think it is very important to operationalize the term "under-performer". There is a reason for having performance tiers and their proportionate rewards; anyone who is not operating at full-performance can be considered an under-performer, but that is OK and the employee's choice unless they are in the lowest tier.

That's what most ICs have been wising up to; it is easier to not cave into the peer pressure of an office environment to feel you always have to perform at top. You can totally pick a tier and have a proportionate work performance in comparison to your life performance, i.e. your other life goals. For the first time in a while a great majority of employees got a feel of what is to be not living for work.

I mean, this is not even just tech, eg. restaurant workers have been quitting disproportionately, due to many things, but also for realizing they just don't need to put up with the unnecessary pressure and rude clients.

> The trick is for executives to wrangle all of these new challenges at once... People haven’t been trained how to make this new world work... How do we make our execs feel more comfortable to let those who want to work home do so?

That is literally their job to handle and steer the ship under ambiguous conditions.

I absolutely don't think it is anyone's but their burden to find a working solution. If they find it too stressful, they can quit, or take comfort in their exec salaries.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cdrini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:12PM (#28027351)
Since when does significant mean majority? It means significant; ie nontrivial; a number you can't ignore.

I think the comment is asking the HN community for potential suggestions/solutions that allow for the remote-loving crowd and the office-loving crowd to coexist (presumably in a single company), since their needs are a little at odds with one another.

Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by acituan on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:43PM (#28027635)
Majority by definition implies significance, and I wanted to clarify they weren’t meaning majority. I think I am missing the point you’re trying to make.
Re:Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote ... by cdrini on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:57PM (#28028872)
Majority implies significance, but significance doesn't imply majority. It felt like you were projecting something onto the comment that wasn't actually there. But I understand where you're coming from.