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Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by nradov on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:53AM (#27617415)
Law enforcement can be dangerous but it's only #22 in occupational death rates. Lumberjacks and roofers are far more likely to get killed.

https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-j...

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by bitexploder on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:02AM (#27617572)
For people replying to this comment, the point is, policing isn’t as dangerous as you might think. Certainly it isn’t risk free, but people perform many more dangerous jobs. Police deaths are often tragic and a result of human on human violence though, so it tends to spark a stronger reaction than “well, a giant tree fell on Jimmy and he died”. Still tragic but there are no “bad guys” in that scenario for a lumberjack, for example. Police also are supposedly serving their communities and there is a perceived nobility to the profession that makes deaths while in service to the community much more visible. It can even trend towards a bit of hero worship. Not judging the profession itself, there are a lot of human factors in the job and certainly, anyone who has dealt with conflict can attest that dealing with other people all day is a lot more stressful than many other professions in that list.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:42AM (#27618298)
When it comes to analysis of job hazards, death is perhaps the penultimate risk, but to ignore the vast breadth of other job hazards that law enforcement officers are exposed to is an analytical failure.

Further compounding the issue is that law enforcement is not the job that the police are often tasked with. Some of the job hazards they are exposed to are due to making inappropriate demands of law enforcement officials.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by threatofrain on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:20PM (#27620851)
> When it comes to analysis of job hazards, death is perhaps the penultimate risk,

Death is penultimate to... what?

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by xnx on Monday July 05, 2021 @06:59PM (#27742619)
If you're familiar with The Princess Bride, "to the pain".
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:43PM (#27621245)
See the United States “Occupational Injury and Illness Classification Manual” at https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/oiicm.pdf
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by ShroudedNight on Thursday June 24, 2021 @03:48PM (#27622918)
I've tried navigating that document, it's not clear to me where your ordering came from. FWIW 'penultimate' means second from last, suggesting that there is an 'ultimate' risk even more feared than death. I believe that's what GP was asking about.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @06:13PM (#27624517)
Ah, sorry for not expounding further. I did understand what the GP was conveying, but I’m just saying:

It is common to consider some situations as being worse than death.

I suspect that most reasonable readers of that classification manual would be able to identify a selection of situations that could lead to being considered worse than death.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by pacbard on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:06AM (#27617635)
I wonder if the stress comes from how a police officer dies on the job rather than the absolute death rate of the profession.

Lumber harvesting is the most dangerous profession in the US but I imagine that most deaths would be described as "accidents". For example, someone cuts a leg with a chainsaw, a tree snaps in a weird way, someone gets pushed off a cliff.

Police officers, on the other hand, usually due to violence while interacting with other people.

In other words, a lumberjack, roofer, etc could think that they won't die today on the job because they are being careful, because there are safety protocols set by OHSA, etc. The same might not be true for police officers because there is little that they can do to address how others will interact with them.

In a sense, police officers might process their job more closely to how a soldier process their job than a lumberjack/roofer.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by ceejayoz on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:07AM (#27617659)
> I wonder if the stress comes from how a police officer dies on the job rather than the absolute death rate of the profession.

> Police officers, on the other hand, usually due to violence while interacting with other people.

Incorrect. It's mostly traffic accidents. https://www.npr.org/2010/12/29/132441719/Traffic-Accidents-L...

In 2020, it was mostly COVID. https://thedaily.case.edu/study-finds-more-active-duty-polic...

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by KSteffensen on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:22AM (#27617925)
> there is little that they can do to address how others will interact with them

Don't police generally get training in conflict de-escalation?

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:54AM (#27618507)
Indeed they do.

The training documents that I’ve seen publicly available on the internet explicitly incorporate de-escalation techniques as the first and preferred option.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jakelazaroff on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:15AM (#27618836)
On the other hand, you have people like Dave Grossman (of the "Killology Research Group") telling cops at police seminars that one of the "perks" of the job is that, after killing another human being, they'll have the "best sex [they've] had in months". https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/13852746532292853...
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:30AM (#27619037)
I understand your point, but it is a little disingenuous to bring that up as a point without considering the relative rates of attitudes such as that with the mainstream attitudes of law enforcement trainers.

Is this individual representative of the mainstream?

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jakelazaroff on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:43AM (#27619223)
I mean, are the training documents that you've seen publicly available on the Internet representative of the mainstream? Why is your inclination that those are normative but this seminar is anomalous?
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:06PM (#27619613)
> Intensive specialized training is provided to offic- ers in departments using a police-based specialized police response. This strategy involves having sworn officers with specialized mental health training pro- vide crisis intervention services and act as liaisons to the formal mental health system. Deane et al.2 found that only three percent of departments use this ap- proach—among them, the Memphis Crisis Inter- vention Team (CIT). CIT officers make up about 15 to 20 percent of patrol officers and receive 40 hours of training that focuses on scenarios derived from actual incidents. Officers receive extensive training in de-escalation techniques.9 The second approach, a police-based specialized mental health response, was used by 12 percent of the departments. Mental health consultants, who were not sworn officers, were hired by the police depart- ment to provide on-site and telephone consultation to officers in the field. The third approach, a mental- health-based specialized mental health response, was used by 30 percent of the departments. This strategy involved reliance on mobile crisis teams. The teams were part of the local community mental health ser- vice system. The teams had developed a relationship with the local police departments to provide assis- tance on the scene.

http://jaapl.org/content/jaapl/33/1/50.full.pdf

Of note, the remaining 55% of the departments in that study did not have a formal policy at the time (2005).

edit: additionally, in that paper they discuss the notably high proportion of police officers expressing interest in mental health training - almost all of them

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jakelazaroff on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:12PM (#27619698)
To be clear, this is referring to a very specific subset of police: "crisis intervention team" officers within the 3% of departments that use a "police-based specialized police response" to mental health issues.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:19PM (#27619788)
That is not a correct reading of the quoted analysis.

In tabular form:

CIT 3%

police-based specialized mental health response 12%

mental- health-based specialized mental health response 30%

no formal policy 55%

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jakelazaroff on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:35PM (#27620024)
Agreed. And the relevant sentences, within the paragraph about CIT:

> CIT officers make up about 15 to 20 percent of patrol officers and receive 40 hours of training that focuses on scenarios derived from actual incidents. Officers receive extensive training in de-escalation techniques.

It's ambiguous whether "officers" in the second sentence refers to all officers or only CIT officers (I read it as the latter). Regardless, according to this analysis only 0.45–3% of all patrol officers receive this training that is specifically with regard to people with mental illness.

Edit in case my math is unclear: according to this research, 3% of all department use CIT or similar. Assuming 100% of officers in those departments receive the training, that works out to 3% of all patrol officers. Assuming only the ~15% of CIT officers receive the training, that works out to 0.45% of all patrol officers.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:50PM (#27620287)
I didn’t understand why they chose to include that extra information about CIT, but maybe the authors were just being thorough.

I did read it as if it were written: 15-20% of Memphis Police patrol officers are also CIT officers

edit: I’d highlight that the authors did emphasize the intensive nature of de-escalation techniques for CIT training and that perhaps they were singling out Memphis as “state-of-the-art” police policy, at that time, with regard to law enforcement officers being tasked with mental health care.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @03:38PM (#27622788)
In reply to your edit, you also need to account for the same training that may or may not be provided in all the other cases. This review article did not highlight any such data, but it likely exists in the research under review or in other available research
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jakelazaroff on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:02PM (#27626376)
Sure — but the point is that given the evidence we’ve discussed so far, there’s no reason to believe de-escalation training is more normative than that disturbing seminar.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Sunday June 27, 2021 @10:09AM (#27651684)
There is some suggestion in the presented data that police are asking for normative mental health training.

Can dig into the research to find out if anyone has empirically studied the attitudes of the trainers, themselves.

There is no reason to believe that de-escalation training is less normative than that disturbing seminar, either.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by pirate787 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:02AM (#27617576)
I suspect this doesn't account for the subset of cops out on the beat versus law enforcement clerical workers.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by only_as_i_fall on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:34AM (#27618136)
In most years the leading cause of death among on-duty police officers is traffic accidents.

So in a sense you're right but not really for the reasons you might think.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jjcon on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:08AM (#27617682)
It’s important to understand that this includes everyone in policing even those who work behind a desk not just those that are near the front lines so to speak. The usbls collects it for the entire policing sector not just the job of police officer:

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by VWWHFSfQ on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:01AM (#27617551)
this comment is always on threads like this. as if it's supposed to prove like "meh it's not THAT hard of a job"

roofers don't have to worry about making a split-second decision about whether or not they have to kill someone before they kill you.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by toqy on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:13PM (#27620729)
yes they just make arbitrary decisions all day that might kill themselves
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by TheFreim on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:02AM (#27617578)
That's to be expected. It seems to make sense that a lumberjack and a roofer have an easier time becoming too relaxed compared to the police.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by serverholic on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:00AM (#27617533)
I imagine that information doesn't help very much psychologically.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by busterarm on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:59AM (#27617520)
Police are in the top 5 in suicide rates. As are construction workers.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by Hamuko on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:08AM (#27617687)
I don't really know what that represents other than stress. Your average veterinarian is as likely to kill herself as your average police officer is to kill himself.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:56AM (#27618530)
Citation?
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by Hamuko on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:57AM (#27618548)
http://www.zeroattempts.org/suicide-professions.html

There's also a TED talk about suicide among veterinarians: https://youtu.be/objP3E625Xo

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:15AM (#27618832)
Unbeknownst to me, veterinarians are indeed in the top 11 job types at risk for suicide.

Teachers are not, however. Why do veterinarians and police kill themselves more than teachers do?

Stress like you mentioned, yes, but the psychology research seems to point to suicide as a poor coping skill, so it could be argued that a failure in supporting employees in building their coping skills is a contributing factor.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by mgarfias on Thursday June 24, 2021 @04:05PM (#27623098)
Tell that to my wife’s old deputy (she was a dispatcher), that took a 7.62 round from an AK in the ass. Or his buddy that was medically retired after that from fucking is his back getting the shot-in-ass guy out of the fire fight.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by mgarfias on Thursday June 24, 2021 @04:06PM (#27623111)
Or the corrections deputy my friend worked with that was sexually assaulted by escaped two prisoners in a stairwell.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jcims on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:53AM (#27618487)
Yes and flying is safer than driving.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by Analemma_ on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:00AM (#27617545)
And the majority of those are traffic accidents. If you limit it to homicides it drops many more places.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by bluefirebrand on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:08AM (#27618723)
How many roofers or lumberjacks are killed by homicide in the course of doing their job?
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jjcon on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:04AM (#27617609)
Untrue at least for USA, only 28% are road related deaths.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by bildung on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:19AM (#27617879)
Your source is only for the year 1995, and even there it was the second most common cause. It was the most common cause on average over the last ten years (traffic fatalities are split, you have to add them together): https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/causes-of-law-enforcement-d...
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jjcon on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:41AM (#27618272)
Even on your source they aren’t the majority
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by bildung on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:02PM (#27621535)
The sum of traffic accidents is 335+4+1+2+58+4+130=534 vs. 528 who were shot.

Edit: Even better: the chance of being shot is way lower for an LEO than the average US citizen: Its .000122 for the average person vs. .000066 for an LEO.

(2017 numbers: 1/32510000039773=.000122 for the average vs. 1/80000053=.000066 for LEOs, gun deaths from here https://time.com/5476998/risk-of-guns-america/ and LEO deaths from the source above)

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:58AM (#27618576)
Did you sum the numbers for all types of moving vehicle sources of hazard?

If you do the math, it does appear to exceed the number of incidences of being shot on the job.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jjcon on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:22PM (#27619827)
Yes and even then it doesn’t

Additionally the claim wasn’t, ‘exceed the number of incidences of being shot on the job’ it was, ‘majority of [deaths] are traffic accidents’

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:43PM (#27620154)
Depending on your perspective, the claim is not entirely incorrect.

The most neutral reading of the presented data is that police are equally likely to be shot, have a moving-vehicle accident, and have a job related illness.

The remainder of job related hazards are extremely marginal in comparison to those three.

Guns, vehicles, and illness compose the near totality of incidents and those incidents are distributed nearly equally between the three hazards.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by lolsal on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:17AM (#27617838)
This is your source:

> SOURCE: US Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries, 1995.

Notably from 1995.

Doesn't your source say that only 47% of police deaths are homicide? That's less than half of the statistic used for this ranking. Am I reading that table correctly?

I don't have my own stats or sources; I don't particularly have a dog in this hunt. This seems like not a useful source at all in my opinion.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by jellicle on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:19AM (#27617868)
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by Disruptive_Dave on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:56AM (#27617455)
Potential for death is a very limited way to measure dangerous occupations/activities.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by fighterpilot on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:18AM (#27617855)
Not sure why you're downvoted. Chronic stress should be considered. Police have a much lower life expectancy than regular people. This could be either selection bias or the impact of chronic stress, and it has little to do with dying as an immediate proximate consequence of the occupation.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by Disruptive_Dave on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:25AM (#27617972)
It's also just a very un-nuanced way to think about anything. It reminds me of a scene in the show Scrubs where one friend is discussing the difficulties of being a child of divorce. The other comments how he always found it interesting how children with divorced parents think they have the market cornered on issues/problems (paraphrasing here, obviously). Think about all the children who grew up with parents who should have divorced but didn't, thus extending the misery of living in that environment.

Living every single moment with PTSD, physical pain, anxiety, and so on shouldn't be diminished because it isn't as romantic and easily captured as death is.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:59AM (#27617527)
This comment is supported by data.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5516a4.htm

> Floodwater contact with the nose, mouth, or eye was reported by 51% of firefighters (254 of 500) and 30% of police officers (258 of 864); 52% of police officers (473 of 910) and 63% of firefighters (330 of 524) reported rescuing citizens from flooded areas.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by HPsquared on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:02AM (#27617590)
Accidents are less psychologically stressful than violence.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:43AM (#27618310)
Citation?
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by HPsquared on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:58AM (#27618565)
Not something that can be empirically tested.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by 9wzYQbTYsAIc on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:09AM (#27618732)
Looks like it can be.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=Acc...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=Acc...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=rel...

> There is little information available that shows the relative values of stress across different occupations, which would enable the direct comparison of stress levels. This paper reports the rank order of 26 different occupations on stress and job satisfaction levels.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...

> One of the main tenets of GST, the introduction of noxious stimuli (i.e., experiencing violent events) correlates with negative coping strategies.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by bazzert on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:58AM (#27619475)
said by someone who probably has a #9999 most dangerous job.
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by busterarm on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:56AM (#27617464)
Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by Supermancho on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:18AM (#27617857)
> Law enforcement can be dangerous but it's only #22 in occupational death rates.

The original post has been edited to no longer make the claim about policing being the most dangerous, but a direct refutation is not whataboutism.

Re:Police have been quitting in droves in the last year by busterarm on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:47AM (#27618395)
The original post didn't say "the most dangerous" but "one of the hardest". That's what it said when I made my comment and my comment is within 3 minutes of the parent -- and I had been reading comments for a good few minutes before then.

On the long tail of possible professions, #22 is pretty damn close to the top.

There was no direct refutation made and the comment is CERTAINLY a Whataboutism.