- Laws are virtually never there to regulate the median case. They're there to reduce the risk of harm. The reason we don't let people have automatic weapons isn't because most people would go on a killing spree if they had one, it's that a tiny minority would, and that would be disastrous.
- It's literally only been just yesterday that I watched someone's "well behaved" dog attack my friend's dog on a leash. He had to pull the (probably 3x larger) dog off of his. My brother had stitches on his face from being bitten as a kid by someone's "well behaved" dog. I have zero faith in dog owners' ability to self-regulate.
- I'm sure you have the one dog in the world that doesn't chase birds. Most dogs do. This is specifically about that case.
This really demonstrates your ignorance. Such dogs are not uncommon, particularly when well trained. My dog doesn't chase birds. She's a border collie that lives for frisbee and frisbee only. I taught her the herding maneuvers, but she does it lackadaisically and it's hard to get her to give eye to chickens. She's just not into it, but she'll humor me if I tell her to do it. Frisbee though... she is. And she can be at a dead sprint after a frisbee in flight and if I say "Stop" she'll stop on a dime. If the frisbee drifts off the field and into the street, she'll simply stop on the edge of the grass or sidewalk and wait for my ok to go get it without me saying anything.
And my dog really isn't special. Honestly, she has been a difficult to train dog from day one, but she has still been trained. Her mother though... man she's a true pleasure to work with.
I usually walk her off leash as well. When people ask me to put her on leash, I do, and I hold it with a loose pinky finger since it's kind of a joke because of how unneeded it is.
This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of.
It is probably different in collectivist societies where folks consider proper training a prerequisite to going off-leash, but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody.
I live in Germany and I go to parks to freestyle with a soccer ball. My issue has always been dogs off lease interfering with my personal business. I have some balls with bite marks. I have been snubbed and sometimes gotten a rude response from owners.
I have lived in the USA also. My observation generally is that people find it weird when you say you don't like dogs/cats/etc -- almost like they are hearing it for the first time. This was a big difference from my home place.
I don't hate them, I just feel totally uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel my heart racing or I just totally freeze when I see a dog off lease nearby. (I would love to fix this: would appreciate any pointers).
I’ve had a couple of friends who were afraid like you, where I would not bring my dog (a Vizsla - Quite energetic and very into people, so not a good idea to take him if I want those friends to feel comfortable). They started to come round to dogs generally after hanging out with friends that have smaller more docile breeds. Eventually they felt more comfortable and after shorter interactions with mine they got familiar with how the dog behaves, what motivates them, what they understand etc and slowly figure out that most are similar. So I’m not sure this is helpful, but that’s been my experience.
That's an interesting sentence.
I’m from USA. On the same page with you here about the collectivist vs individual freedom. As you noted it’s a tragedy of the commons—-because unquestioned individual freedom is prized so heavily in USA, some dog owners take advantage of it without appropriate precaution, and those people tend to do things like call the police on black people, or scare and injure children by accident with their dogs, and these incidents correspondingly build our stereotype of off-leashers. Ironically this also leads to laws and rules and a general social attitude that restrict our individual freedom to walk dogs off leash.
In that way, Europeans are more ‘individually free’ on this topic because, as you note, off leash dog walking is totally normal over there because people wouldn’t think of doing it without appropriate control of their dog. Interesting to think about the tension and paradoxes between individual and collectivist freedoms.
But, you probably have some annoying dog tax ;)
The tax is from the local municipality, and I think it’s for upkeep of some dog infrastructure - dedicated dog parks, bins with little bags. It’s not much
This passage doesn't make sense. It's a word salad.
To start with, do you know what a tragedy of the commons is?
Second, why would "individual freedom being prized so heavily" entail "people tending to do things like call the police"? Are you familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_collaborator and the like in authoritarian countries?
Third, what's the source for this bizarre claim that "those [dog owners] tend to do things like call the police on black people"?
Fourth, in what way is the latter at all relevant to the topic?
And they all say their dog is well behaved and doesn't do such things.
This is interesting to me because we have no such assurances about other humans either. But acting on the fear that a given human isn't adequately trained and restrained is labeled with every variant of ignorance.
- It's well dressed instead of naked
- It walks on two feet
- It speaks English
... And vice versa.
I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash. The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me, although sometimes humans do attack other humans, most of them are fine so no need to worry in general.
> but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody.
Yes, I agree, it's terrible when owners have no control over their dogs. But that's not relevant to the leash itself, that's relevant to the expertise of the owner. Dogs on leashes misbehave as well, and can easily (if wanted and the owner is a terrible one) unleash themselves by either raw power or the owner not paying attention.
Which may apply to 90% of off leash dogs. Unfortunately, the other 10% that have dogs that *cannot* be off leash, but do so anyway ruin it for you.
There are people that are afraid of dogs. They have no way of knowing, at a distance, whether your dogs will behave or run up to them. So when they see any dog off leash in a leash required area, they have to take a large detour to give the off leash dogs a wide enough berth.
If you’re in an area where leashes are required, and you have your dogs off leash (no matter how well trained they are) you are being extremely inconsiderate of the other people around you.
As a dog owner as well, I wish there were more acceptable off leash places in society for dogs, and I cherish the areas where off leash behavior is acceptable. But taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.
Finally, in my personal experience the number of well trained off leash dogs (that can behave appropriately in a “leash required” setting), is nowhere near 90%. In fact, I would say the majority of off leash dogs I run across do not behave appropriately. It’s probably closer to 25% of the off leash dogs I run across that are trained well enough that they behave acceptably in on-leash settings
> Taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.
This sums it up perfectly. Thank you!
Not sure why you say "well trained", the owners have obviously not trained the dog and has no business being off the leash, they are not well trained by any definition and you won't see dogs like that without a leash here in Barcelona.
> > Taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.
> This sums it up perfectly. Thank you!
So... If there is no expectation of having your dog on the leash, then it's not rude and inconsiderate? Makes me feel a bit better at least, as the expectation here where I live seems to be very different than where you folks live.
He was using scare quotes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes
Yea, I would agree with that. If there’s a legal expectation, or shared social expectation that an area requires a leash, then it’s rude and inconsiderate to have a dog off leash in that area.
If no such expectation exists, then off leash dogs are much more acceptable.
> the expectation here where I live seems to be very different than where you folks live.
There’s not a single expectation where I live, it varies by the place that you are. In certain areas of the city, dogs are required to be on a leash, while in the rest of they city they are not required.
In most parks in the city, dogs are required to be on a leash, but there are certain parks where dogs are allowed off leash.
My expectations of people’s behavior are largely driven by those laws, as that seems like the best way that we have to create shared expectations about different spaces.
This is my sister, exactly. At age four she was chased by an off-leash Alsatian and to this day is nervous of any off-leash large dog
No, this is not the same. You are legally responsible for the behavior of your dog.
If you let your dog off leash in a place where it is illegal to do so, congratulations: you've just lost the lawsuit.
If anything remotely funny happens -- regardless of what -- the liability can and will fall on the dog-owner for their reckless behavior. The real sad part of this is when the dog gets put down for the stupid owner...but my point is the people who let their dogs off leash have also posted a big, red sign saying "I'm responsible for anything happening here" -- even though few of them seem aware of that fact. Liability only becomes a question again if there is another dog-owner with their dog off leash.
Maybe, but I'd still feel safer if they were properly leashed and muzzled.
I walk a cat -on a leash- and dogs without a leash are a real problem to be on the lookout for at all times.
Your doing what you're doing stabilizes a culture where there can be no consequences for anyone in this domain, because there's no clear line of enforcement. What's a low-wage enforcement officer expected to do in this context you advocate, where people "mind their own dog's abilities" and only get fined when some clear violation occurs? Are they supposed to fine people only when they see dogs chasing birds, or scarring a fearful child, or jumping up on an elderly person, or any number of other things with unclear lines? No, you just outlaw dogs off-leash, and allow the $20/h enforcement officer to clearly execute their pro-social task. The anti-social behavior get fined.
So while it's setup like you say it is, in theory, what you think cannot happen is what happens in practice. Same with public drinking and other laws. The police usually look the other way unless you are abusing it somehow, being too drunk, loud or otherwise annoying. Sitting in the park with a bottle of wine is fine and won't end up with you getting a ticket, even though it's illegal. At worst they'll tell you to stop whatever you're doing, and if you follow their command, that's the end of the situation.
Maybe the big difference here between law officers in Spain (Barcelona at least) and wherever you're based, is how strict they actually enforce the laws. Here is maybe a bit laxer, which also fits in with the whole culture here, and it's represented in how law officers behave as well.
Yes, if I was in the USA maybe I would be in the minority. But where I actually live (Barcelona, Spain) I'm not, as mentioned before. Countless people walk their dogs without leashes here, and no one bats an eye.
> too many dog owners think their dogs are fine and when their dog runs dozens of yards away from their master to bound up to us th egg cheerfully call out, “It’s a friendly dog!”
Sure that might be a friendly dog but in no way is that a well-behaved dog, it wouldn't run away yards away unless the owner explicitly calls out for them to behave that way. Living in ~16th or something biggest city in Europe, you wouldn't have your dog stray that far away from you, easily within a yard of yourself at all time, otherwise I wouldn't call them well-behaved.
So back to the original point: off-leash dogs that don't behave properly have inconsiderate owners, yes I agree with this. Are all owners who let their dogs be off-leash inconsiderate? No.
~ I've been bitten in the hand drawing blood by two different dogs (not mine). ~ My daughter had a large dog nipping her face while the owner laughed. ~ I have too different acquaintances that were mauled on their face pretty badly.
All these dogs had owners nearby.
I love dogs and have had one or more the majority of my life, but people are irresponsible and arrogant.
> people are irresponsible and arrogant
Agree! And it does harm that people are behaving that way, but that doesn't give me reason to limit people who are not irresponsible and arrogant. Yes, some things are dangerous to consume for example, and irresponsible people can make it worse for everyone by consuming those things, but I don't think we should outlaw those things just because of that.
This could of course be solved by introducing stiff penalties for owners of unleashed dogs who bite -- how about a fixed 10,000 dollar fine?
If such a law were ever to be passed, something tells me a lot of people with "well behaved" dogs would suddenly start to leash their dogs "just in case".
Humans are very predictable in that fashion.
That's great, as it should be. However, the majority of dog owners I encounter are at the mercy of their dogs, they treat the dogs not as dogs but as humans and try to bargain with them. This is merely annoying when the dogs is a golden lab, but can be mortal when it is a "sweet" "rescue" pit.
You are right though, it doesn't matter if the dog is on a leash because people also get these 30ft (10m) leashes and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone's dog is trying to "just show affection" to a toddler.
So, the golden rule is not to get a dog if you can't be pack leader. A very bad proxy for a person being able to control a dog is the dog being on a "short leash"[1]. So, people go for that rule.
Then you get the 100 lb jogger (45 kg) who attaches a Doberman with a breakaway clip to their shorts.
The crux of the problem.
Some people are afraid of dogs. Others come from cultures where dogs are considered ritually unclean. And no stranger can verify just by a glance that your dogs will behave themselves.
To take the third point to its logical extreme, imagine a town where police wear street clothes and openly carry firearms. You, a visitor, cannot determine by observation alone that they are all highly trained officers of the law. You simply see people with firearms. That could be unsettling, despite the fact that the presence of those people actually makes you safer.
I suppose that if everyone is walking their dogs without a leash, it's not really an issue because the culture has adapted to that practice.
Friend is an intelligent, gregarious, kind hearted tech worker. He’s also completely delusional and in denial about his dangerous, demonstrably violent pit bull.
Friend routinely takes dog off leash in places where that is not permitted.
This is the problem.
there's a great hike just outside Salt Lake City that solves this problem by allowing bikes on even numbered days and off-leash dogs on odd numbered days
If this is true then you should have no problem putting a leash on them where it's required. By your own admission it wouldn't affect your activity.
Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude.
The comment I responded to called me "extremely inconsiderate", "hostile" and "violent" while I'm neither of those things (well, "inconsiderate" when it comes to how I handle my dogs seems to be up for debate at least). Are those the stereotypes you mean are visible in my comment?
> Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude.
Thank you for sharing your opinion but it does not help me understand WHY, which I why I made my initial comment in the first place. You have something to contribute, contribute. But re-iterating exactly the same piece of information as what I replied to without any sort of addition or effort does not help anyone in this discussion. If you want to explain why you feel that way, please do.
"How is it inconsiderate if I carry a gun in public? I've never shot or threatened anyone! If I met someone who asked me to put my gun away, I would obviously do so." :)
Societies work because we agree to give up a measure of our personal freedoms, even when it's sometimes a bit inconvenient for us.
Seemingly the police here are of the view that most dogs don't pose a threat to others and are not annoying when off leash, as I haven't been confronted when walking next to them with my leashed dog.
Carrying a gun would obviously not be OK here as it's strictly outlawed. If I went to the US, I would probably feel the same way that some feel against dogs here but regarding guns, so that's actually a good point, thank you.
Well... I mean yeah, that's why I asked for more information in order to understand the other persons perspective, what do you think this discussion is about? In case you missed it, here is the part I explicitly call out that I don't understand their perspective but I would like to, so please educate me:
> How is inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I'd like to understand your point of view. I could understand you think it's inconsiderate if people don't have control on their dogs and they annoy others while the owners do nothing, then I agree with you. But just because of being off-leash? Not sure I understand that line of reasoning.
If you have something to contribute that can further my understanding, I'd be most appreciative.
> other people have no oracular powers with which to discern whether you or your dog are well-behaved.
Yeah, this is true but applies in so many things in life. New friend introduced by my other friend? Not sure they are well-behaved or not, but I'll default to that they won't murder me, but if they give signs that they might want to kill me, I'd stay away or contact authorities. I think in general society is adjusting well to the possibility of judging things as they come along, instead of painting broad strokes like "people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate", at least where I live, not sure how things look where you live.
So when I encounter them I have to assume you are not a reponsible dog owner.
The dog was on the lead (or leash for you American English speakers) at the time of the attack though.
As far as I can say this adds to the discussion.
Someone literally said people who don’t have their dogs on leashes are prone to violent confrontations.
Then someone else retorted this is not the case for them and asked for elaboration to better understand their interlocutor’s point of view.
We should not be abusing downvote privilegies by discouraging viewpoints that we disagree with, when these viewpoints are relevant to the discussion. In the long run that will be harmful to ths community here and the next generation of hackers will go to different forums, or, worse, learn from our example.
I must say that in this sort of situation - an area near a nesting site - I absolutely agree a dog shouldn't be free to run around. But I imagine there are signs specifically warning people against doing that. There are areas here where I have to do the same, for example near areas where people hunt deer (a lot nearby) or where there are bears (only seen warnings in Slovakia). But outside of those areas, with an conscientious owner and an attentive, trained dog who listens to their owner - there's no reason not to unless it's someone who hasn't bothered training their dog.
In my experience, most dog owners are like the user who started this thread. They do what they want, having their dog constantly off leash in areas where it's clearly not allowed, and then rationalize it to themselves with something like "well my dog's well behaved and would never hurt a fly!" It's incredibly inconsiderate to both the environment (dogs are constantly chasing and damaging wildlife, a lot of poop gets left behind as the owner is walking off in front and doesn't notice) and other people (many people don't like dogs, dogs are dangerous for bicyclists and small kids, and some people have smaller dogs who they don't want strange dogs interacting with), and indeed the badly behaved dog owner will see signs of this on a daily basis, but chooses to consciously ignore all of them by pretending none of it's happening.
Dog culture around the Bay Area where I am has reached peak absurd. With more dogs in SF now than kids, people treat their dogs like they would human children. Off leash dogs in on leash or even no dog areas is the norm. At least a few times a week I'll see an off leash dog to something bad to a person or another dog, and the owner pretend-chastise them with a, "ooohhhhh Fido, silly dog, don't do that" (but in a sweet tone so the dog is not actually being chastised) followed by a "he doesn't normally do that". You know of course that Fido does normally do that on a consistent basis, and the owner is pretending Fido doesn't because they really don't care.
It's frustrating to me, and probably frustrating to other people on here too. There's no real enforcement anywhere, so the only thing we can do is ask dog owners to put their animals back on leash, which will be ignored. It's like fighting entropy at this point, and if you're anything like me, you sort of wish nebulously that people would just be better.
In cities that have a lot of people from all over the country and world you end up with a lot of culture clashes. People do things that in the context they grew up in are totally reasonable and normal, but from someone else’s perspective seems uncomfortable or even dangerous.
In theory municipal rules should harmonize, albeit with some people left unhappy, but it’s another American cultural quirk that some rules are widely ignored. But which ones is again a matter of geographic diversity.
All the responses in this thread have been cordial and relevant, so it is disappointing to see some of them met with this kind of silent disapproval, which is reserved for non-sequitors, those acting in bad faith, or impolite speech.
How is inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I'd like to understand your point of view. I could understand you think it's inconsiderate if people don't have control on their dogs and they annoy others while the owners do nothing, then I agree with you. But just because of being off-leash? Not sure I understand that line of reasoning.
Edit: Just to clarify further, if I did meet someone who asks me to leash my dog I would obviously do so without hostility or violence. In my ~6 years of having dogs in Barcelona, that has yet to happen even once.