News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WordPress 18 by mbgerring on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:11AM (#27312251)
WordPress is like Craigslist in that software engineers hate it, but everyone else happily uses it, and both are thriving businesses providing a sustainable livelihood to their employees and owners instead of trying to take over the world. You should be so lucky to invent something as well-loved and as useful as WordPress, and to stick to your principles for as long as Matt has.
Re:WordPress 18 by PinkPigeon on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:34AM (#27312371)
It's so interesting to see just how successful WordPress is. Among developers especially. I look at small business websites all around where I live and it's all WordPress and every single one was made by yet another wordpress-shop that does nothing but setup WordPress for people. It's a huge ecosystem.

And you know what I have learned by talking to these businesses? It's that WordPress is still not easy enough to use for non techy people.

Nobody wants to touch their website, out of fear of doing something wrong. So they have to go pay someone to do it every time.

I'm running pinkpigeon.co.uk, which tries to actually make websites easy enough to use for everyone. But I am actually running into a problem where people expect all websites to be like WordPress and the first thing you hear is "oh I don't want to learn another thing". It's only when I show them the system, that they go "oh wow, that really is a lot easier". The problem is trying to convince anyone of this remotely via the Internet. Much easier to do in person.

I have the utmost respect for WordPress and used it much myself, but at the moment it's challenging to have to be compared against it when simpler solutions exist.

Re:WordPress 18 by notatoad on Friday May 28, 2021 @01:01PM (#27317843)
>Nobody wants to touch their website, out of fear of doing something wrong. So they have to go pay someone to do it every time.

i think it's a mistake to believe that this is a problem to be solved, or that the reason people don't want to touch their website is just a "fear of doing something wrong". it's not a question of how easy the admin panel is to use - the vast network of people willing to handle wordpress sites is a feature of wordpress. a business owner doesn't want to deal with their website, they want to pay somebody else to do it for them. tech people like self-serve solutions that they can log in and administer themselves, but there's a whole lot of people who really don't want that - they want to just call somebody up, explain what they want, and have it taken care of. the reason wordpress runs 40% of the internet is because it delivers that experience.

Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:25AM (#27312624)
What baffles me is that huge portion of those small business websites have absolutely no need for Wordpress or any backend altogether. At best they need some static site generator and a CI/CD pipeline maintained by the provider to rebuild the site if it is an actual blog, which is not that common.
Re:WordPress 18 by prower on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:01AM (#27312839)
> At best they need some CI/CD pipeline maintained by the provider

My business requires a what now?

Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:48AM (#27313100)
Missed a part. A static site generator with build/deploy happening on provider's infra.
Re:WordPress 18 by pembrook on Friday May 28, 2021 @06:11AM (#27313597)
> A static site generator with build/deploy happening on provider's infra.

“Say what now? Where do I login to update a photo on the site?”

Re:WordPress 18 by throwaway77112 on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:50AM (#27313118)
In software engineering, CI/CD or CICD is the combined practices of continuous integration and either continuous delivery or continuous deployment.[1]

In short everything has to be continuous, otherwise you'll stall and die. Now go buy some CI/CD from the shop.

[1] wikipedia

Re:WordPress 18 by lethologica on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:20AM (#27313282)
Cool. Now imagine I’m a business owner that makes and sells my own socks and happen to need a website to do so. What you’re talking about would still make zero sense to me.
Re:WordPress 18 by throwaway77112 on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:54AM (#27313478)
I should have added it was sarcasm :(
Re:WordPress 18 by IncRnd on Friday May 28, 2021 @11:22AM (#27316463)
> At best they need some static site generator and a CI/CD pipeline maintained by the provider to rebuild the site if it is an actual blog, which is not that common.

What most people want is to have something that works, where they can focus on their content and not on your tools. Wordpress works for people.

If they get a CI/CD pipeline maintained by someone, how do they create pages, get updates, fix those pesky security issues, write a blog post on their mac that when saved automatically gets posted? How easy is it to apply a theme to your CI/CD pipeline? Your tools work for you, but are you going to maintain them with the same level of features as Wordpress?

Oops, it's holiday time, will you write a greeting card plugin for your CI/CD pipeline for them to purchase cards on their website and send site-specific cards to their email list by Monday? No? Sorry, they just switched off of your CI/CD pipeline to Wordpress.

When moving to a different hosting provider, people want to conduct business not learn a to use a new CI/CD pipeline to match the tools at the new hosting company.

What about when you get tired of updating their site generator code for them? They will need to start over, and they won't pick another CI/CD tool that's unmaintained and is expected to get horribly outdated after a year.

People go into business in order to conduct business.

Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:04PM (#27320490)
"Joe's porchbuilding" does not send automated greetings. They want a website that is discoverable on Google by new clients and can display their pitch, everything else is negotiated on phone or by email anyway. You only need to worry about security issues if you build such a site on top of a dynamic platform. The updates and security issues disappear if you serve factually static content as static content.

Static site generators are bad for dynamic websites, but that does not mean you have to try and fit a whole dynamic platform into a static website. Different use cases, different tools.

Re:WordPress 18 by IncRnd on Saturday May 29, 2021 @01:49PM (#27326946)
> "Joe's porchbuilding" does not send automated greetings.

And, that's false. Unless you make them run one of your restricted platforms that doesn't have the features they want and need for their business.

Wordpress runs 60% of CMS websites. 15% of the most viewed websites run Wordpress.

> You only need to worry about security issues if you build such a site on top of a dynamic platform.

Do you actually believe that there are no security issues with static websites?

Thank you for the conversation, but I'm going back to running my business.

Re:WordPress 18 by FalconSensei on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:51PM (#27319126)
And they will want to automatically publish to twitter/facebook, integrate shopify on the site, some forms, etc...

Wordpress has 1 click install for all those things as plugins (or work out-of-the-box)

Re:WordPress 18 by Cthulhu_ on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:54AM (#27312792)
You say that, but what if they want to add GA? Or an image gallery? Or a chat box?

Those are just some examples that with Wordpress, it's a click and pretty much plug and play. With the static site generator you're proposing, you quickly need to do coding yourself.

Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:53AM (#27313134)
If you buy website development service you do not necessarily care whether the provider writes custom code for WP or static site generator.

Why do you need a backend for GA or image gallery?

Re:WordPress 18 by iamacyborg on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:27AM (#27313310)
Because you don't want to keep paying ongoing fees for new development when it could be as easy as installing a plugin.
Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:42AM (#27314175)
But image gallery does not need any "additional development". All it needs is frontend code to display the gallery nicely, some storage mechanism and a "manifest" of sorts with relevant metadata of the gallery.

If that is a photo-sharing website, then yes, proper backend is needed. But for a portfolio website of a photographer, which gets updated once a month at best, static manifest will work wonders.

Re:WordPress 18 by blizdiddy on Friday May 28, 2021 @09:20AM (#27315001)
I love the idea that "frontend code" is somehow not "additional development". Have fun with your "manifest" and "metadata".
Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:54PM (#27320377)
I equally love the idea that hiring a web agency to build a wordpress template is somehow entirely different thing from hiring a web agency to build a not-wordpress template.

The frontend code which eventually renders the image gallery does not care whether fetched image list is produced by PHP code or is served by http server directly from filesystem.

Re:WordPress 18 by tehbeard on Saturday May 29, 2021 @02:42AM (#27323495)
> But image gallery does not need any "additional development". All it needs is frontend code to display the gallery nicely, some storage mechanism and a "manifest" of sorts with relevant metadata of the gallery

I can't tell if u missed a /s or genuinely think that isn't additional dev.

Re:WordPress 18 by pgsimp on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:52AM (#27312775)
How are the small businesses supposed to update their websites, if there is no backend? You can't expect them to write HTML.

Not sure if suitable WYIWYG editors are still around, or if Word exports to HTML have become usable.

Re:WordPress 18 by hutzlibu on Friday May 28, 2021 @06:24AM (#27313682)
" or if Word exports to HTML have become usable"

I doubt there is beauty to be found.

And websites are a lot about beauty.

Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:43AM (#27314180)
Businesses, even very capable with web dev, update their websites very rarely. Businesses want to update the content, which is different. Static site generators are built exactly for that.
Re:WordPress 18 by FalconSensei on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:53PM (#27319145)
Can I open an app on my phone to create/update a post? Can I Use my phone to create another user so a friend can guest-post on my blog? Can I send an email to a certain address to publish a new post?

Nope

Re:WordPress 18 by friendzis on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:49PM (#27320305)
Now you just take things a blogging platform can do and try to morph that into an argument against static site generators. The very point of static site generators is to drop a whole host of functionality.

How often does a construction/handyman "online flyer" webpage need a change? Once a year, maybe. The primary point I am trying to make is that websites of a lot of small business (obviously ones that are not webshops) serve more or less static content and therefore have no need for a backend at all.

You have a food blog where you publish recipes/reviews daily? Surely a blogging platform is a much better fit for you. You have a restaurant page where you publish contacts, coordinates and a menu which changes every second year? Well, maybe a static site generator is a better fit.

Re:WordPress 18 by JeremyNT on Friday May 28, 2021 @09:29AM (#27315081)
> WordPress is like Craigslist in that software engineers hate it, but everyone else happily uses it

Why would a software engineer hate Craigslist? It's one of the most streamlined, responsive web sites I interact with on a regular basis. No third party scripts. It's built to purpose and it works very well without any fuss.

I suppose I have some minor gripes - with noscript it looks awful and they killed off their RSS feeds a while back. But hardly enough to inspire hate!

Re:WordPress 18 by okprod on Friday May 28, 2021 @09:49AM (#27315271)
and to stick to your principles for as long as Matt has.

Technically he subtly shifted from supporting free software to open source. Just pointing that out, not making a big deal about terminology or anything as WP is still GPL'ed.

Re:WordPress 18 by unixhero on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:01AM (#27312510)
I can attest to that the fundamentals of Wordpress are truly awful. Will never return and can not recommend it for anything business related. It is a damned fine blog software though.
Re:WordPress 18 by adflux on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:05AM (#27312534)
Define business though, most business do fine with wordpress alone. Then there's woocommerce with about a 20% market share iirc...
Re:WordPress 18 by codingclaws on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:35AM (#27313039)
I hate WordPress because it has bad DX. But why would I hate CL, it's a simple, useful site with minimal JS.
Re:WordPress 18 by zapt02 on Friday May 28, 2021 @08:13AM (#27314439)
What do you find bad about WordPress DX in particular?
Re:WordPress 18 by codingclaws on Friday May 28, 2021 @12:53PM (#27317739)
I have not worked with it recently. I recall needing to rewrite a URL and it not being possible with .htaccess - which would have taken a couple minutes. Instead I had to learn the WordPress URL rewrite system.
Re:WordPress 18 by baby on Friday May 28, 2021 @11:00AM (#27316177)
I’m an engineer and I always recommend people to use wordpress if they want to blog.
Re:WordPress 18 by ngold on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:45AM (#27312431)
And here I am, making a website with an image and boxes around links.
Re:WordPress 18 by musicnotwords on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:16AM (#27312281)
The headaches are simply not worth it. No designer should be using WordPress for client websites in the age of squarespace/wix. It is just irresponsible to build something for a client that is going to break itself within 1-2 years max.
Re:WordPress 18 by ghego1 on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:37AM (#27312385)
WordPress is an open source project, immensely supported, fully customizable to it's core and that let's you port your website to virtually any hosting service out there, that let's you export all your data however and wherever you want.

Wix and alikes are proprietary software, that lock in users on their services, have limited customization options, don't allow you to edit code and have little to no export options.

Whoever pays someone else to have it's website built on wix or alikes is getting a very bad deal, due to the above mentioned restrictions (compared to WP) they'll end up very dissatisfied in few years if things go well (meaning more traffic and more needs).

Source: experience. As a developer I feel the frustration coding for WP, but at the same time it's the best compromise to provide a CMS that the average user can manage

Re:WordPress 18 by lmm on Friday May 28, 2021 @04:01AM (#27312835)
Scaling is famously a good problem to have. Unmaintained wordpress instances are the internet equivalent of toxic waste dumped in the river. I agree that open standards are important, but IMO it's irresponsible to leave someone with a website hosting setup that doesn't have a qualified person responsible for ongoing maintenance. (Fully managed wordpress hosting from a reputable, established company is one possible answer, of course).
Re:WordPress 18 by mavhc on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:44AM (#27313402)
Is it impossible to make a secure CMS? I'd think step 1 would be to not have the admin stuff with the same access as the public website, and step 2 would be to have a way to sandbox plugins, but are those things possible?
Re:WordPress 18 by lmm on Sunday May 30, 2021 @10:51PM (#27339511)
Step 1 is possible nowadays (with SNI) but was hard until recently, and I don't think practices have really caught up with that yet.

Step 2 is difficult to even define properly. What is a plugin supposed to be able to do, and what is a plugin supposed to not be able to do? If you can answer that question precisely, then you can solve the problem, but if you can answer that question precisely then you probably don't need plugins in the first place.

Re:WordPress 18 by musicnotwords on Friday May 28, 2021 @11:41AM (#27316741)
I understand wp is more flexible and from a development perspective is superior. However it's inferior if you are just hooking up some small business with a website they can maintain and they don't want to pay you for ongoing maintenance.
Re:WordPress 18 by wintermutestwin on Friday May 28, 2021 @12:41PM (#27317562)
>Wix and alikes are proprietary software, that lock in users on their services, have limited customization options, don't allow you to edit code and have little to no export options.

If you are building a simple brochure website, none of this matters.

Re:WordPress 18 by weird-eye-issue on Friday May 28, 2021 @02:33AM (#27312369)
It completely depends. I think building a site on Squarespace/Wix can very easily be considered irresponsible.

edit: For Wordpress only install reputable, necessary plugins. Turn on auto-update. Keep backups. Things should be just fine. Now you aren't locked into a single platform and you can extend your website as much as needed (unlike Squarespace/Wix which severely limit what you can do).

Re:WordPress 18 by Hard_Space on Friday May 28, 2021 @11:51AM (#27316889)
> Turn on auto-update

Having been paid quite well to migrate to and from WordPress, and to help maintain the WP sites of major publishers, I have to say that this is questionable advice. In most cases in my experience, the publisher has employed third-party providers (at huge cost) to develop frameworks and custom plugins that can easily be broken by automatic updates.

Updates need evaluation and testing in staging sites before they can be rolled out. For publishers, the first install of WP is free - everything after that costs plenty.

Re:WordPress 18 by weird-eye-issue on Friday May 28, 2021 @01:19PM (#27318084)
Like you said, "major publishers" will have those problems due to custom code. Not the sort of websites where Wix or Squarespace would have ever even entered the conversation. You need to keep context in mind.
Re:WordPress 18 by Hard_Space on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:28AM (#27331889)
And not so major publishers, including hundreds, if not thousands in the top 10,000 sites. So it isn't just the Washington Post, et al. This is why I intervene on generalized advice to enable auto-updates on WordPress. I have seen it cause publishers a ton of money, and have lost a number of weekends when called in to perform damage limitation.

'Make sure you keep everything updated!' has a ton of caveats and pitfalls, that's just the reality.

Re:WordPress 18 by gentleman11 on Friday May 28, 2021 @05:58PM (#27321005)
How do you know if a plug-in is reputable without being neck deep in the ecosystem for a year talking to other devs?
Re:WordPress 18 by weird-eye-issue on Friday May 28, 2021 @08:14PM (#27322000)
I just make sure the install count is something high (if it is lower than say 100k, then probably there is a better plugin out there to do the job) and it has been updated in the past couple months, and it is compatible with the latest version of Wordpress. All that info is directly visible while you are searching for plugins within Wordpress itself on the search page itself. And typically I'll also do a Google search for whatever problem I'm trying to solve and make sure it's recommended by at least two people.

Btw, I'm a senior full stack software engineer. But for my digital media business I operate several Wordpress websites. I don't talk to any Wordpress devs and do any custom Wordpress theme or plugin development (aside from what is available in the GUI and extremely minor CSS tweaks).

Re:WordPress 18 by gentleman11 on Sunday May 30, 2021 @01:30PM (#27334883)
Download count and reviews aren’t necessarily trustworthy though.

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/05/using-fake-reviews-to-fi...

Re:WordPress 18 by dmje on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:45AM (#27312742)
That’s a pretty bad comparison. The entire reason WP is a better solution than SS and Wix is it’s extensibility, data portability and usability.

Plus: what headaches? Do it well, keep it updated ( uh, yeh, like literally ALL the software, ever ) and it’ll work flawlessly for years.

Re:WordPress 18 by musicnotwords on Friday May 28, 2021 @11:37AM (#27316677)
Who is paying me to keep their site updated?
Re:WordPress 18 by allenbrunson on Friday May 28, 2021 @03:21AM (#27312604)
i am going to strongly agree.

i set up my first real blog over a decade ago. i picked wordpress, because that seems to be the default, and i didn't know any better. oh my god, i hated maintaining that thing so, so much. it pretty much killed my desire to blog, as a matter of fact.

i recently started another blog, and this time i used a static site generator. i wouldn't recommend such a thing for non-technical people, but if you are willing to get your hands a little bit dirty, it is a hell of a lot easier to fix than wordpress ever was.