News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by admissionsguy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:31AM (#27205972)
> Giving your project to a stranger on the internet is risky, so we used escrow.com to make the transfer.

I sold a website on Flippa once. The buyer put the money on Escrow.com, I transferred everything over, and they went AWOL. What I found out is that there is no straightforward way to obtain the funds when it happens. Apparently there is no way at all except via the court system. Which would mean the only real protection Escrow gives is against the buyer going bankrupt (or using false identity, I suppose).

Fortunately, they came back several weeks later with some nonsensical excuse and closed the transaction, but I will never use Escrow.com again.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by CGamesPlay on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:59AM (#27206128)
> Which would mean the only real protection Escrow gives is against the buyer going bankrupt (or using false identity, I suppose).

Well, the buyer is out of the money in any case, which is a pretty big protection.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by sly010 on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:50AM (#27208566)
No. The buyer got his assets. You are out of money.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by bena on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @10:50AM (#27209437)
The buyer as well. But the buyer technically has "paid" so they may not be as concerned with closing out the transaction. If only the assets could be held in escrow as well, then when both elements are held by the escrow group, they can release to the appropriate parties.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by runako on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:53AM (#27210367)
Domain names can be held in escrow by escrow.com. So theoretically it's possible to at least get that part back if the transaction goes south.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by bena on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @12:17PM (#27210681)
I should have been more clear.

It's not a matter of whether it's possible but whether the seller had the foresight to use the service in such a capacity.

Because at the end of the day, an escrow is a trusted third party used to facilitate a trade. We typically think of them in terms of money because that's typically what they hold, but there's no good reason they can't be trusted with any good.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by rrishi on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:20AM (#27206260)
have to agree here
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by gnopgnip on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:56AM (#27206117)
That is how escrow works in other contexts, like real estate. Either both parties agree, or the escrow service holds it until it is resolved through the courts.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by ianhawes on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:26AM (#27210017)
Thats how it's supposed to work.

I was in a similar situation to the parent commenter. The buyer had deposited the funds into Escrow.com and received their assets. I notified Escrow.com that the business assets had been handed over and they awaited the response from the buyer - which never came.

Escrow.com sends notices after 3, 7, and 10 days of inactivity.

After 15 days the buyer requested a cancellation and Escrow.com notified me via email that I had 48 hours to provide proof that "the domain" had been transferred or the transaction would be cancelled and the buyer would received their funds back.

My issue was that there was no domain transfer associated with this purchase. The buyer was receiving software that they intended to use under a new brand and thus had no use for the domain.

I raised hell with Escrow.com. Calls, emails, assurances that someone would get back to me. The cancellation came on a Friday and no one contacted me until Tuesday. They called to ask if I had spoke to the buyer and then politely explained that they couldn't do anything because there was no domain attached to the sale.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by Quarrel on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:12AM (#27206209)
escrow.com is a licensed escrow operator.

This is how it works, they don't get to just decide the outcome or they'll get shutdown during their audits.

This is a good thing in transacting on the internet.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by ambicapter on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @10:30AM (#27209155)
Does escrow licensing not allow for a "transaction closed in 3 months or assets released to original owner" contracts?
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by Quarrel on Thursday May 20, 2021 @08:20AM (#27220194)
I'm pretty sure it does, actually. They just need a clear flow chart and then for people to not want to change it after the fact.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by admissionsguy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:38AM (#27206355)
Should release by default when there is no dispute.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:56AM (#27206476)
probably the 'licensed' in licensed escrow operator disallows this.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by stefandesu on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:58AM (#27206489)
Germany's biggest Craigslist-like service recently added a service like this for purchases that are shipped. I sold my previous MacBook using the system and found it really stressful to wait for the buyer to confirm the item. In my case, it was just someone who was a little bit slow and just forgot, but I can imagine abuse in the system. Same thing happens with PayPal buyer's protection.

I can't think of a better system though, to be honest.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by ratww on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @12:08PM (#27210563)
Yeah, other than having someone manually inspecting the transfer, that's kind of the best way.

I've noticed that most sites end up implementing "automatic confirmation", but after a while they shorten the confirmation deadline because lots of buyers just "forget" to approve.

I've also seen others (MercadoLibre) who have a "reputation" for sellers where they can get the money even before confirmation.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by bdcravens on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:17AM (#27209873)
Mercari and Poshmark work the same way (they do release funds after a default amount of time if there's no response)
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by axaxs on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @01:44PM (#27211905)
A better system would have some agreed upon holding period. Two weeks perhaps? Enough time at least that the buyer has received the goods. As much as I hate Paypal, that's essentially what they do. They hold the funds until they've confirmed the item was delivered.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by idiotsecant on Thursday May 20, 2021 @11:31AM (#27222467)
No, a better system would give the buyer incentive to release funds in a timely fashion while still offering the escrow company incentive to implement. Maybe you pay escrow 110% of the cost, you get 10% back when you release funds, 5% if you take more than 10 days, 1% after that.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by ivanche on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @07:21AM (#27207079)
What's the name of the service? I suppose you're not thinking of ebay kleinanzeigen, or?
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by CallMeMarc on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @07:56AM (#27207353)
Not the parent, but I think they do actually mean eBay Kleinanzeigen. A few months ago they added a service like this but afaik it’s still in beta and also not available for all categories yet.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by stefandesu on Monday May 31, 2021 @01:50AM (#27340622)
Sorry for the extremely late reply! I do actually mean Ebay Kleinanzeigen. I don't know when they added it, but it's called "Sicher bezahlen".
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by shaicoleman on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:09AM (#27207463)
According to their FAQ, funds are automatically released after the inspection period.

The inspection period can last for up to 30 days, and is agreed upon by all parties at the beginning of the transaction.

https://www.escrow.com/support/faqs/what-if-the-buyer-forget...

https://www.escrow.com/support/faqs/what-is-an-inspection-pe...

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by admissionsguy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:53AM (#27207865)
The buyer has to mark the items as received for the inspection period to start.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by bendtb on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @02:40PM (#27212655)
The way you deal with this in international trade is by putting up a irrevocable letter of credit, which against documentary proof (I.e. proof of quality and shipment) will release the sums. This have worked for millennia.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by edwinyzh on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:58AM (#27210423)
So this issue implies that there is a startup idea? I think there is a technical approach to solve the issue, by providing a system to let the escrow service provider to inspect and confirm the transferring of the source code, something like using a remote desktop (something like a temporary VPS) to where both the seller and the buyer have access, and during the delivering of the source code, the seller upload the code, compile it and run the result, and all the process is recorded. That way, if the buyer don't mark as 'received' in a given period, the platform staff can check and confirm the delivery and close the transaction.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by bluedevil2k on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @12:44PM (#27211125)
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by adventured on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @12:07PM (#27210554)
> So this issue implies that there is a startup idea?

It's definitely a do things that don't scale idea. You need humans in the transaction confirming what's actually occurring. That tends to be expensive, because you also need them to know what they're doing, understand the broad details of the exchange and be trustworthy. That cost and difficulty of scaling is exactly why Escrow.com doesn't try to do it for every transaction across their system.

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by JacKTrocinskI on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:48AM (#27206423)
Would a smart contract help avoid this kind of situation?
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by tzekid on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @05:54AM (#27206466)
Yup. Just need to specify the conditions of what "done" or "delivered" looks like. After that it's basically:

  if (delivered) pay();
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by avinassh on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:25AM (#27206687)
Ha ha. This reminds me of an old project / library [0] I built based on a Quora answer. I wrote libraries for Android and iOS, also wrote a simple server component which could be installed on Heroku with a single click. At the start of the app, it would contact the server for payment status. If server indicated that payment has been made, it would function like normal. If not, it would just crash.

I never used it in any of my projects nor I know anyone using it. I just had an itch of learning Clojure and building libraries for android, and iOS, so I made them.

[0] - https://github.com/avinassh/little-finger

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by calpaterson on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:16AM (#27206619)
How do you encode that a website and assets have been delivered? It doesn't seem so obvious.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by hobo_mark on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:25AM (#27206683)
wooosh
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by calpaterson on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @06:50AM (#27206867)
Ha, I see it now. Too dry and too early (in the morning)
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by sashimi-houdini on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @10:04AM (#27208786)
The funny thing is that a couple of comments up 2 sibling comments basically gave the exact same answer, but one in jest and one seriously. The cryptosphere really is beyond parody
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by o___ on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @08:21AM (#27207574)
> Just need to specify the conditions of what "done" or "delivered" looks like

Since it's "just" so simple, can you better explain what those done/delivered conditions might look like? And preferably how that would also be more secure than Escrow.com?

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by x4e on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @09:44AM (#27208469)
Yes, if you had an oracle [1] that was able to provide information on whether the transaction had completed.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain_oracle

Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by lobocinza on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @03:43PM (#27213484)
In the end its the same problem. A human has to verify.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by ericjang on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:47AM (#27210279)
How would oracles verify semi-private business deals?
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by artificial on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:35AM (#27205992)
Can you post a password protected zip then?
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by admissionsguy on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:37AM (#27206004)
Might as well have them pay in advance, no? It's not a way to transfer a whole operational web application, in any case.
Re:Selling Tiny Internet Projects for Fun and Profit by randymonday on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @04:54AM (#27206096)
For relatively "small" amount of money, I totally agree. However, from my experience selling a tiny project [1], buyers were reluctant to transfer in advance even sums that are below $10K. Therefore we also used Escrow.com..

[1] I wrote more about my experience in my ebook - https://gum.co/side-project