I'm a big fan of the Malazan series as well. I still think of the hair jacket when I come across someone with a smelly jacket and it never fails to crack me up.

My recommendation for epic fantasy that is a bit different and unexpected: The Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Some very powerful stories in there. The first book is pretty short so it is a good way to try it out. Though I think it hooks from the very start.

The king killer chronicles however. e.g. The name of the wind. I really like this book series.

You may not like Sanderson's writing, but the man publishes books. He will get my money for anything he writes because I know I'm going to enjoy it (personally, I really enjoy his books) and I know he's going to complete what he starts.

Then I started reading about Patrick Rothfuss. I don't think I'll ever read the 3rd book if he ever does actually write it. Yes write, all indications are he hasn't written a page. I have lost whatever respect I have had for the guy. If he has a legitimate reason as to why he has kept his "fans" waiting for over a decade, he should say it. This reasoning is bullshit. [1] I would 100% understand if he said something like "I'm under a lot of pressure and I have anxiety and writers block" or something to that effect. Nope, he just completely checked out.

Maybe I'll read the Wikipedia summary if it ever exists.

[1] https://winteriscoming.net/2020/12/04/patrick-rothfuss-expla...

Does the man owe you anything?

If he had said "sorry, no book 3, it's just done now" years ago, or even now, then that changes expectations. But if he's just going to avoid it all then ya, that's kind of a bad thing to do to your fans.

[1] https://i.redd.it/4g1jexk7i9e51.jpg

I rest my case. He's a jackass.

Also, you've probably heard of it already but The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie

But I think my biggest complaint about Way of Kings is that the characters often make such frustrating decisions. The fate of the world is at stake and people are petty, self-absorbed, secretive, and sullen. Maybe that's reality, but it's so frustrating to read sub-plots that drag out for hundreds of pages simply because people won't communicate.

I miss, to some degree, books like King's Gunslinger and Moorcock's Elric, that could tell a story in ~200 pages. Or even the TSR pulp fantasy books of the 80's which all seemed to be 300-400 pages. Now everything is super-sized, but I don't feel like I'm getting more "story", I'm getting in-depth descriptions of clothing and internal monologues on what to cook for dinner.

Despite that critique, I still recommend Way of Kings (and Wheel of Time!). Just flip through the filler.

Heh, now that's ironic, knowing what happened to the WoT: Jordan[1] died before he could finish it, and years later another author stepped in and finished it based on Jordan's notes. That other author was... Brandon Sanderson. So one would think he'd know the dangers of creating too big a sprawl.

(Also: Take heed, GRRM!)

___

[1]: Actually Oliver Rigney, IIRC.

I find the decisions are often not predictable, which I think for some can be a turnoff because things don't go the way you expect/want them to. I find this a strength.

I decided to try the Mistborn trilogy. The first book was great - a nice tight and satisfying story. But the second and third books got progressively messier and I found myself totally disconnected and eventually just slogging through to the end. I wish I would have stopped after the first book.

Sanderson admits loving to write write write and hating to rewrite and edit, which I think really showed in the latter books of the trilogy.

Which is a shame, because some of his work really is excellent.

I am hoping to give it another shot this summer, but I can't exactly say I am looking forward to it.

Every single novel I've read by him (All of mistborn, 1st 3 Way of Kings, Elantris) has egregious pacing problems. Way too much repetitive exposition that doesn't move the story along.

Arcanum Unbounded is actually pretty good, probably because it's all short stories and doesn't have time to get lost)

- Dialogue from adults that has the emotional intelligence of a 12-year old

- Lots of telling, almost no showing. So much "X, the kind of person who takes no bullshit from anyone, says, 'hi'".

- Huge, dragging, Return-of-the-Jedi-style setpiece battles and fights that have no bearing on the plot outcome

- Plots that just repeat on a larger scale with every book in a series.

Dude needs someone who has the ability to say no to him. With the amount he writes though, I have to imagine it's basically a DDOS for anyone tasked with editing his work.

It was only decent though. I thought he made some very artificial uses of the magic system that didn't seem to fit in the world but just let him keep the series on track. Also, RJ wasn't the best at writing women but Sanderson is a total square and so the romantic/personal relationships were not really there.

Interestingly, the part of his books I liked the most was entirely original (Aviendha's future vision), and the one I thought was the worst written (Tower of Ghenjei) was an attempt to keep an RJ alpha plot that RJ probably would've abandoned.

But yes, there was a lot of depth and the women were always strong characters and seemed to be having fun, whereas Sanderson writes like he hasn't gone through puberty yet.

I appreciated the joke without taking it too literally. But here we are.

It's not clear from a quick glance, Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?

Stormlight Archive is 10 books in two 5 book arcs. 4th book is out now, 5th book will be out in 3 years. So probably a decent time to get into Stormlight. (Sanderson makes a schedule for each of his projects and has an incredible talent for hitting his targets.)

Mistborn is a complete trilogy although he continues to publish other novels set in the same world.

Way of Kings is ongoing. It's on book four now. Each book is over a thousand pages so there's a lot there. I don't think it's a problem to start. Books 1-3 are great and stand alone pretty well. It's started to drag with book 4 in my opinion. Like so many other huge epic fantasies, it has too many characters, too many plotlines, too huge of a world, and it's difficult to maintain the epic feel with all that sprawl. I'm worried for book 5.

> Mistborn and The Way of Kings take place in the same universe?

They take place in the same universe (literally) but they are on different worlds. So they don't have anything (much?) to do with each other (yet?)

Book 4 of Stormlight does have some pretty big references to the original Mistborn trilogy, too.

On the whole I try to read books in the order I bought them (ish), but Sanderson is one of the authors I'll just drop everything for when a new book comes out. Disclaimer: he does have some bad habits (mainly inserting "wise ass" characters who don't fit the tone or setting, and who I strongly suspect carry the author's voice a little _too_ directly). But he does epic world building incredibly well, and very different to just about any other author I've read. He also writes action exceptionally well.

Mistborn and Way of Kings are in the same universe but separate worlds. I don't want to spoil too much but there is some crossover involved.

Like others have said, the first 2 books are particularly good. But, be warned that the second book deals with a lot of racial and sexual issues, and King does not have a filter. The fourth book is a prequel, and really stands on its own as a novel, but really threw off the rhythm of the series for me. I had a hard time getting into it because I wanted to resume the primary storyline. The ending does come with a warning, but I think it was perfect.

I’m also a big fan of the Daevabod Series by SA Chakraborty. That is also hella.

I wasn't really hooked. I think it was a interesting read, but I got no motivation to read further. Might have been, because I read a note from King before, that he also did no knew yet, how the tower worked. And he just wrote freely to explore it, too. So I expected the story to have even bigger holes in the plot than his ordinary books and trouble to get the story lines together in a consistent way in the end, leaving too many logic errors.

But maybe I should give the tower a second try one day.

* not really a spoiler, it happens at the very start of book two [rot13] *

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some bits are a drag, some are so cheezy, but you just roll with it and it’s a fun ride with some amazing high points.

I love HN

I haven't actually read any other books by him.

He's very good at coming up with creative plots and good storytelling - but after a while it all seems generic and kind of the same - and he is not good (or doesn't bother enough as people buy it anyway) to avoid lots of plotholes in the stories and logic gaps. Or rather to bring the story lines together in the end, he seems to use ductape.

So I enjoyed his short stories much more, as they were much more consistent, than the big, blown up "masterworks" of him.

There's also The Wind Through the Keyhole which slots inbetween the main books. Learning about this one is that made me read the whole series again only a few weeks ago. It's still as good as it ever was!

Did you read any of his other books? Would you recommend them?

I was a bit disappointed with the fourth book set in the The First Law universe. Possibly it was Best Served Cold but I'm not sure. It felt more like a rehash and it was missing whatever made the first books special. And it put me off trying his other books ever since.

Out of curiosity, and because of my praise for the series, my dad decided to give it a try...

I've never in my life seen him read anything for pleasure.

He's now >5000 pages in, just finished Fool's Fate, and is about to start The Rain Wild Chronicles (10th book in the series).

I picked up The Assassin’s Apprentice while looking for something to fill the Rothfuss void. I was instantly hooked. The tone and the pace was just right for me. I really like that they are so character-driven, deeply exploring the characters’ emotions, history, flaws, etc. And she’s great at having the plot build and build until basically everything is going wrong, and then she delivers a super satisfying ending.

I usually take a short break between each tril, but I might just go straight into her last batch after I finish this book.

I will always read anything recommend by a person who uses Malazan as a benchmark.

Purchasing this book right now.

I didn't enjoy the first book too much, less epic scope than I was expecting and I don't like child protagonists very much.

But the writing was excellent and after a year hiatus and a streak of questionably written books (Malazan was one of them...), I picked her up again. Halfway through the second book I realized I was cheering to Kettricken charge to aid Fitz and I was hooked.

Since then each book has been better than the one before.

The way she uses perception, perspective, and cognitive biases are, as you say, shatteringly powerful. Particularly with her stream-of-consciousness writing style, where you so naturally get sucked into the character's mental framework. The final trilogy in particular that brings it all together, but even within the individual trilogies she's constantly doing it.

I started reading her books back when I was still in school, and they had a fundamental impact on my life. It fundamentally altered the way I see things, and the career path I eventually took. I couldn't even articulate exactly how, until I stumbled upon the concept of systems thinking[1] a few years ago and realized that was what she had given me an awareness of. Which then led me to these[2][3], which pretty much describe how I had started seeing and approaching things after reading Robin Hobb's books.

Not sure if it would have been as impactful if I hadn't read them at such an impressionable age, but I'm forever grateful that I did. And for that, Robin Hobb will always reign supreme on my favorite author list.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory#Systems_thinkin...

[2] http://donellameadows.org/archives/dancing-with-systems/

[3] http://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to...

Her work is quite unique, I think - as you say, it's epic fantasy, but with a slant I haven't seen before. I'll happily second a recommendation for fantasy readers.

I hope she's doing OK, and would be very happy to read more from her, if it comes to her.

Ok, I agree on the positive outlook in her books in general (and I have not read the other books you mentioned), but I remember, that some books ended in a very dark way, leaving also me in a very dark mood. I felt a lot with poor young Fitz and the books affected me a lot in my teenage years.

But I never finished them, the last I read was Fools Fate quite some time ago ...

"The final trilogy brings so many elements together, and the ending is shatteringly powerful."

So this sounds very interesting and after a short research, this means I have to continue with Dragon Keeper, Dragon Haven, City of Dragons, Blood of Dragons, Fool's Assassin, Fool's Quest and then finally Assassin's Fate.

Well, if I treat my own animal not too bad and my baby animals give me some rest - I might one day finish them, too.

I notice a similar trend in my enjoyment of RPGs, preferring something with a fairly linear storyline to more open world games.

I would say it needed a series re-edit. First book or two are really differently paced from the end; those two should probably get bulked up a bit, and pulled fully into the final story lore.

Then the series needs a trim down, probably like 33% of pages. It's possible some of the story arcs need to be moved around as well for better readability.

I have just specified like a decade of hard labor, I know. :)

With that done, I think Malazan could be considered one of the all-time great fantasy series. As it stands, it meanders too much at times, and it falls into a sort of military + fantasy sub-genre which I think lessens the impact of the overall story -- it really is an epic RPG-style quest involving hundreds of characters with a (mostly) satisfying finale.

The first book was very bad, the second book was actually much better and I enjoyed it (I assume the editing was much more extensive), but the third book was again barely readable and put me off the series.

I might start it again at sometime in the future, because it is definitely something I would otherwise enjoy. I think I read somewhere that the third book might actually have been written before the second, which gives me hope.

And what I love the most is that he planned ten books rather than needing to shoehorn in extra books after planning a trilogy.

I absolutely adore the huge cast of characters and the fact that you kinda need to pay attention to get the most out of it.

I've been reading a lot since I was very, very young, and have gotten better at it. To be fair, I do have to stop myself from skimming, which is fine with most books but definitely not Malazan.

And also, I probably forget most of it after I finish it, until I read it again.

The audiobooks are 390h total (16 days 5h according to Wikipedia). If your commute takes an hour each way, that’s less than a year even if you only ever listen to it while commuting.

Maybe that's what separates it from other series though.

It's been a long time since I read WoT. I recall tearing through the first few books that were primarily focused on Rand & party. Aside from female character perspectives being frustratingly one-dimensional and stereotypical, I found it great. But then it started broadening, where each book seemed to spend less and less time on the main characters, and instead introduced all these other factions and settings and such that didn't immediately tie in in any obvious way. It did all (mostly) come together eventually (with Sanderson's help), but again I feel like the important parts could have been told without spending so many pages in other places. But hey, that's just my taste; clearly others love that!

I don't really notice much difference in first and third person perspectives once into a book, although it's more noticeable when starting out. Second person is more jarring - I've read The Raven Tower and Harrow The Ninth recently, both being all or largely in second person.

Interesting point you make with regards to RPGs - open worlds are addictive to me (I played Skyrim for many, many years - and have played almost everything in the Elder Scrolls series).

Re books, Character development is probably #1 for me. I like a good plot as well though, but I prefer one that focuses on fewer characters in order to move forward with them more quickly. With something like Malazan or, say, Wheel of Time (which wasn't as well written maybe, but had quite a compelling plot) I find myself spending the whole time looking forward to the 10% of the book with the characters I actually care about; the rest can start to just feel like unnecessary filler almost.

Wonderful prose but man the storytelling was a disappointment. Put me off her work completely.

Anyway! I don't mean to complain. These remain cherished books for me!

If you're looking for quality prose with a confusing, hard-to-perceive story in the background, I can recommend Patricia A. McKillip. Most famously, I think, the Riddle-Master books, but most of her fantasy stuff is like this.

It's not so much that the storytelling is disappointing as that it's hard to understand what's supposed to be going on. But the writing style is something else.

Sadly, in the last 10 years, I've barely read anything. However, when The Fitz and the Fool Trilogy came out, you can bet I made time to read it!

Try audiobooks. It's difficult for me at the moment to set aside time to curl up with a sheaf of paper bound together; but I continue to get my dose of long-form words when working out, washing dishes, mowing the lawn (and, before the pandemic, cycling to the office).

Am I missing something here? It's been a while since I read the Malazan series but hope seems to be one of the primary themes of the series, even if things are utterly bleak at times.