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Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by code4you on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:15AM (#26903670)
What is NASA hoping to learn from this drone that they couldn't get from the rover? Is the point just to test if this type of flight is possible on Mars, or is the rover collecting some extra observations?
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by KuiN on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:03PM (#26904326)
As other have said, it's a tech demo. Partly just to show we can do powered flight on other celestial bodies, part of it is to test how well the off-the-shelf parts in Ingenuity work in that environment. Rotorcraft require more computing power than is available from typical rad-hardened processors. Ingenuity is using a Snapdragon mobile phone chip, will be interesting to see how long it survives up there.

NASA have plans to use rotorcraft in many future missions, including the Dragonfly which will fly around Titan[0]. Launches in 2027.

[0] https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasas-dragonfly-will-fly-...

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by NovemberWhiskey on Thursday April 22, 2021 @04:20PM (#26907669)
>Rotorcraft require more computing power than is available from typical rad-hardened processors.

Ingenuity uses a three-level control system for avionics[0] - the Linux part that runs on the Snapdragon 801 is at the top tier and does more the mission computer functions like navigation, computer-vision, telemetry, command processing and interfacing to the radio.

The middle tier is a dual-path redundant microcontroller system based on the TMS570 architecture. This is an automotive-grade part qualified for safety-critical usage. This an ARM Cortex R5 design, so not exactly a speed demon.

The bottom tier is a radiation tolerant, mil-spec FPGA (Microsemi ProASIC 3L) that actually runs the control loops at up to 500Hz, handles communication with the IMU, motor control interfaces etc; this part is actually supposed to be functionally identical to the space-qualified version.

The "Linux running on a smartphone processor" aspect gets a lot of play but the stack as a whole uses a lot more traditional high-integrity design approaches. Most of the heavy-lifting of "fly the rotorcraft" is done away from the Snapdragon, and I'm not sure where the idea that "rotorcraft need a lot of CPU power" comes from.

[0] https://rotorcraft.arc.nasa.gov/Publications/files/Balaram_A...

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by walrus01 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @04:33PM (#26907827)
>Rotorcraft require more computing power than is available from typical rad-hardened processors.

the CPU on a fairly advanced quad, hex or octocopter on earth can be a STM32F7 or STM32H7 family microcontroller, which is not very powerful in terms of raw computing power. That's more than fast enough (in an earth environment) to pull in sensor input at a high Hz refresh rate from dual IMUs, barometer, GPS, and control up to eight motor ESCs, along with running the UARTs for communication to a remote control link, and additional spi, i2c or UARTs to do things like run camera gimbals.

https://docs.px4.io/master/en/flight_controller/cubepilot_cu...

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by teraflop on Thursday April 22, 2021 @05:25PM (#26908399)
Yeah, I think the biggest factor preventing such a simple design from working well on Mars would be the (current) lack of anything equivalent to GPS.

In order to navigate safely, especially during takeoff and landing, you need a reasonable idea of your absolute velocity relative to the ground. You can't get that from an IMU (except over very short timescales) because of integration errors. A barometer would work for the vertical axis, but getting the horizontal component is a lot trickier. GPS solves this nicely, especially since velocity can be derived from relative measurements, which are much more accurate than absolute ones.

It looks like Ingenuity uses visual odometry from a downward-facing camera, which is likely to require a lot more processing than something like an STM32 could provide.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by NovemberWhiskey on Thursday April 22, 2021 @05:39PM (#26908504)
>It looks like Ingenuity uses visual odometry from a downward-facing camera, which is likely to require a lot more processing than something like an STM32 could provide.

I believe that for Ingenuity they are actually doing this in software; but at this point, you can just buy off-the-shelf an optical flow odometry ASIC with a built-in camera and lens system that draws <5mA, fits in a 4x5mm footprint and gives you delta-X and delta-Y.

e.g. https://www.pixart.com/products-detail/108/PAA3905E1-Q

Kinda mind-blowing.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by hoseja on Friday April 23, 2021 @06:13AM (#26913033)
Is that kind of like optical mouse sensor?
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by NovemberWhiskey on Friday April 23, 2021 @02:02PM (#26917401)
Yes it is! Obviously it's a slightly harder problem if you don't know the distance from the surface and you can't provide your own illumination.
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by XorNot on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:18AM (#26910949)
That's one of those missions I'm actually really hoping I live to see: a whole sequence of launches putting a GPS constellation into orbit around Mars.
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by walrus01 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @06:12PM (#26908803)
At the relatively low heights ingenuity is flying at, a single point LIDAR rangefinder aimed straight down would also be well suited to maintaining a certain altitude.
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by SECProto on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:37PM (#26904755)
In addition to the (very valid!) tech demo aspects of this, there's also the huge public interest/public relations aspect. I've seen more articles and comments on Ingenuity than on any other part of this Mars mission. (Personally, I'm excited for the MOXIE instrument[1] - tech that's all but mandatory before human missions)

[1] https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8926/nasas-perseverance-mars-rove...

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by Denvercoder9 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:13PM (#26904458)
> Quadcopters require more computing power than is available from typical rad-hardened processors.

Ingenuity isn't a quadcopter though, it has two blades that counter-rotate around the same axis.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by lsaferite on Thursday April 22, 2021 @04:38PM (#26907884)
> two blades that counter-rotate around the same axis

Which would make it a coaxial helicopter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_rotors

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by 0_____0 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:54PM (#26904981)
It's pretty funny to me that the processor on Ingenuity handily outperforms the one on Perseverance by several orders of magnitude.
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by dylan604 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:11PM (#26905186)
That's the point of the demo. If Ingenuity's processor survives, then NASA can consider these more advanced processors. If it doesn't, then that means continued use of lesser capable but rad hardened processors will still need to be used. OR, it could mean a re-evaluation of mission lengths. if more science can be done using a more capable processor that is known to have a limited lifespan, then that will have to be evaluated against the benefits of longer missions with less processing requirements
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by londons_explore on Thursday April 22, 2021 @03:15PM (#26906905)
They still have a sample size of 1...

Surely a better test would be to get 1000 mobile phone processors and put them in a radiation chamber on earth and see how many fail? It would be far cheaper and be better science.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by dylan604 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @03:53PM (#26907391)
But then we'd have no helicopter on mars right now
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by 0_____0 on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:15PM (#26921652)
I reckon it might actually be cheaper to put together a smallsat with 1000 processors on it and stick it in low earth orbit. Building a chamber and finding all the radiation sources you'd need to accomplish such a thing surely is no small task...
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by anoncake on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:21PM (#26909309)
Maybe we don't know the composition of the radiation on Mars precisely enough?
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by dylan604 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @08:02PM (#26909581)
i've never thought about, but i don't recall any of the other probes/rovers reporting back on things like UVA/UVB or anything else like that. However, with no atmosphere or the Martian equivalent to Van Allen belts, wouldn't it be safe to assume that whatever streams out of the sun is reaching the surface? it would be a matter of intensity on the surface vs what type would it not?
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by m4rtink on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:32PM (#26905446)
Flying drones can open yet more places for exploration in the future - even with the new active precision landing feature introduces with Perserverance the landing elipse still needs to be relatively flat ground with limited ammount of obstacles.

If we want to see and explore deep valleys or high mountains before some future the first setlers go there with gopros and do a Twich stream then flying drones are a good option.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by dylan604 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:08PM (#26905142)
>Launches in 2027.

Hopes/Scheduled to launch in 2027 seems more accurate. Even when the rocket is fueled and on the pad, it can still get scrubbed.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by jffry on Thursday April 22, 2021 @12:15PM (#26904491)
The NASA site contains a lot of info about Ingenuity: https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/ , especially this fact sheet (PDF): https://mars.nasa.gov/files/mars2020/MarsHelicopterIngenuity...

"Its performance during these experimental test flights will help inform decisions relating to considering small helicopters for future Mars missions, where they could perform in a support role as robotic scouts, surveying terrain from above, or as full standalone science craft carrying instrument payloads. Taking to the air would give scientists a new perspective on a region’s geology and even allow them to peer into areas that are too steep or slippery to send a rover. In the distant future, they might even help astronauts explore Mars"

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by ceejayoz on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:41AM (#26904016)
This one's a technology demo.

Future ones might be able to peek over a rock/ridge for planning purposes or access an inaccessible cliff or small crater that's dangerous to rove into.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by dylan604 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:14PM (#26905226)
Is the data collected by MRO not useful for this as well? Sure, the resolution would be increased, so I guess that would have some benefits.

I tend to think of the rover and drone like one of those strategy games where you have to send out scouts to "discover" where to send the rest of the troops, and then plan out how many "moves" to do it in. But then I remember we have the MRO that has pretty much scouted the entire planet. It just takes us a lot of "moves" to get our troops there.

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by LunarRover on Thursday April 22, 2021 @01:32PM (#26905437)
MRO has a max resolvable resolution of 1 meter - incredibly useful for planning, but not enough to keep a rover safe from harm, let alone do all possible science.

The max resolution from a low-altitude helicopter is probably two-three orders of magnitude more detailed

Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by dylan604 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @02:30PM (#26906229)
The rover itself also has high resolution cameras, so it should be able to detect things hazardous/interesting. The drone might be useful to know if it is worth climbing over a dune or whatever, but I still think MRO data would be useful for mission control to plot routes. So maybe the drone+rover would be much more capable as an autonomous pair requiring less input from mission control?
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by snypher on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:23AM (#26903772)
It's main task is as a technology demonstration, after it's time or power budget is expended the rover will continue with it's scientific mission.
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by 1970-01-01 on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:38AM (#26903973)
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by justapassenger on Thursday April 22, 2021 @11:20AM (#26903732)
It’s technology demonstration. It’s not really used for science, other than learning how to fly there.
Re:Mars Helicopter successfully completed its second flight by miohtama on Thursday April 22, 2021 @07:16PM (#26909281)
They get flight data back. E.g. how late at Mars day it can fly (morning is better), how fast batteries wear out and so on.