News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by giardini on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @10:38PM (#26642946)
Whatever progress it may provide, I am certain that dentists and dentists' associations will slowly and surely entomb any process that reduces the sum of their individual annual incomes. I believe Adam Smith called it "the invisible hand" (w/o explicitly noting that the "invisible boot" is jammed into the "invisible customers"' collective asses).
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by dannyw on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @10:46PM (#26642987)
It's so sad that most dentists optimise for billable revenue, even at the detriment of long term patient health.

Fillings for example always degrade and need repairs after X years. Drilling and filling even the smallest cavity puts that teeth on a lifetime progression to bigger and bigger fillings, eventually a root canal, eventually an implant.

Cavities, on the other hand can be arrested (stopped), and if small can even be remineralised. Yes, most dentists don't tell you that!

Careful monitoring and patient education on the other hand can lead to permanently keeping that natural teeth, as our teeth are living and can heal.

My personal lived experience: a dentist told me I must fill 2 cavities six years ago. I got a second opinion. That dentist told me I should wait, focus on oral care, chew xylitol gum, and use a toothpaste with novamin.

Both cavities have "arrested" and need no restorative work.

Disclaimer: Not a dentist. Listen to your dentist you trust, and get second opinions if you have doubt.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by donatj on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:13PM (#26643124)
Novamin toothpaste has been life changing for me. Cannot recommend highly enough. A tooth that was deteriorating and the dentist wanted to cap is now fine enough for them to simply keep an eye on.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by Benjamin_Dobell on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:45AM (#26644501)
I just started using toothpaste with nano-Hydroxypatite after a recommendation from a friend. Obviously I can't say much about its effectiveness long-term. But it feels amazing. Feels like there's a protective layer over the enamel - hopefully there actually is!

Apparently, nano-Hydroxypatite is even more effective than Novamin (which is still good): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5121804/

If you're in Australia and struggling to find toothpaste with Hydroxypatite, Chemist Warehouse stock "Healthy Care Sensitive Propolis Toothpaste". So far, highly recommended.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by kristofferR on Friday April 02, 2021 @03:45AM (#26669712)
Another interesting teeth restoring substance I just discovered:

Oligopeptide P11-4 [1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopeptide_P11-4

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by social_quotient on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:51AM (#26644540)
Totally agree! The brands I use are - Apagard - Boka - CTx4
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by social_quotient on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:49AM (#26644531)
I’ve had similar success with toothpastes containing “nano-hydroxyapatite” Amazon has several good ones.

I also have 2 kids, the youngest (4 yr old) had cavity issues which required intervention and then we started using the hydroxyapatite toothpaste and had no issues since.

I also headed down this path via looking for Novamin. I wish there was a reliable way to get it without the “is it fake” on Amazon. I’d gladly accept any reliable sources.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by Black101 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:24AM (#26645507)
I ordered some from Canada, made in Canada, using Ebay (about as reliable as Amazon but it doesn't come from India and it is cheaper).
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by nickspacek on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:16AM (#26647605)
I went looking on Ebay but couldn't find anything in Canada, do you mind sharing the brand or keyword?
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by Black101 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @02:21PM (#26650974)
Sorry I was talking about the Novamin one... I think the nano-hydroxyapatite one is available in the US.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by dharma1 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @05:04AM (#26645003)
Have you checked out Biomin? It’s meant to be an improved version of Novamin.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by blackrock on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @12:39AM (#26643581)
I have never heard of this Novamin toothpaste before. Nor has any of my dentists ever recommended it.

It looks like the popular brand is Sensodyne.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by elsonrodriguez on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:22AM (#26643800)
Sensodyne does not have Novamin in the USA(insert conspiracy theory here). You'd either have to import it from a reputable supplier, or try an alternative like Apagard or Biomin F(both of those have to be imported too, but are more readily available).
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by spyder on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:23AM (#26644392)
Article from 2018 about that:

"As of the time of this update, Sensodyne toothpaste with NovaMin is now available on Amazon to buyers in the USA, directly from Sensodyne/GSK."

https://medium.com/@ravenstine/the-curious-history-of-novami...

https://www.amazon.com/Sensodyne-Protect-Whitening-Toothpast...

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by throw1234651234 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @02:19PM (#26650948)
That article really helped me understand what this is all about, ty!
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by bemmu on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:30AM (#26643834)
Quick googling found a funny metastudy: "The articles from the database obtained for further review was N = 1. According to the study..."
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by boruto on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:31AM (#26644444)
Haha, I read the same after googling.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068624/

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @05:39AM (#26645219)
I never heard of Novamin, but I used Sensodyne for years becase it tastes better.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by blackrock on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @02:37PM (#26651188)
Has it helped with maintaining the health of your teeth?
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by logicchains on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:17PM (#26643154)
>Cavities, on the other hand can be arrested (stopped), and if small can even be remineralised. Yes, most dentists don't tell you that!

>Careful monitoring and patient education on the other hand can lead to permanently keeping that natural teeth, as our teeth are living and can heal.

Do you have any sources for this? I'm not disagreeing; I hope it's true.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by tablespoon on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:29PM (#26643207)
> Do you have any sources for this? I'm not disagreeing; I hope it's true.

My dentist prescribed/sold me this for some decay: http://www.mi-paste.com/whyMIP.php

She said it works sometimes. I definitely like this conservative approach better than my last dentist's, who filled 4 teeth unnecessarily because his DIAGNOdent beeped once.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by drawfloat on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @12:44AM (#26643606)
I'd be suspicious of those claims – anecdotal but, unless US doctors differ greatly, neither of those are secrets that have been withheld from me by dentists in 3 European countries.

In fact the second statement is surely the basis for most modern dentistry...?

(I said US there because it's an assumption that the US approach to dentistry may be different to rest of the world. From afar, seems more cosmetic focused with a lot more emphasis put on whitening/straightening/veneer/fixing procedures than over here)

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by blamestross on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:31AM (#26646366)
Well it isn't like dentists in the US are real doctors like in other countries
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by tmamic on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @04:00AM (#26644602)
https://youtu.be/3zL4Hou1P-c?t=187

Mineralisation of tooth is a constant process with a tug-of-war between pathogenic and protective factors [3:09].

If it's in the balance, of the remineralisation factors prevail, you can stop the progress of the cavity. But deeper the cavity, this is harder to achieve.

Arrested dental caries is an official diagnosis recognized by ADA: https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/K00-K95/K00-K14/K02-...

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by HWR_14 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:04AM (#26644308)
My dentist friend claims he makes far more money per hour from cleanings than from fillings. This is because most of a cleaning is done by a relatively lowly paid hygienist but still requires him popping in for 5 minutes and a filling requires him to be there the whole time.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by kwhitefoot on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @04:07AM (#26644648)
That's really strange. Here in Norway I visit a dentist roughly once a year and usually only see my dentist if the dental hygienist has found a problem.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by HWR_14 on Thursday April 01, 2021 @11:19AM (#26661552)
5 minutes may be a bit long for the US. I don't know if it's a legal requirement that the dentist pop in (to supervise) or because people will balk at paying as much without a Doctor appearing. I'm not aware of the dentist usually finding things that the hygienist missed.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by xenadu02 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:26AM (#26644411)
My dentist simply put me on toothpaste with high fluoride (IIRC 8%?). Two caries remineralized over the span of about a year and I didn't need fillings.

Unfortunately high fluoride toothpastes require an RX.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by kristofferR on Friday April 02, 2021 @03:49AM (#26669733)
I just take fluoride pills after brushing in the evening. Common here in Norway a least. Tastes great too, it's like a small treat before bedtime.

Has worked great, have never had a cavity.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @05:41AM (#26645228)
Whats an RX?
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by zeta0134 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @05:51AM (#26645290)
For some reason, that's short for "prescription."

English is weird.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by monocasa on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:19AM (#26645476)
Well, Latin. It's short for 'recipere'.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by raducu on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @08:25AM (#26646303)
I've had multiple dentists(including my wife) tell me not to work on certain small cavities, or to use sensodyne.

Some have been under observation for more than 20 years.

I'm also sure they have re-mineralization treatments they do on site, if it was really worth it, they'd be glad to take your money for that.

I'm sure they have exact procedures for when to work on a cavity or not.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by Duckey on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:19PM (#26643159)
Interesting, I knew of someone who also claimed they reversed a cavity by focusing on oral care, and drinking a ton of milk.

Personally, I had a chipped tooth in my early teens and it went away after a decade. I was also drinking about a gallon of milk a day, but I don't know if that's what really fixed my tooth. I wasn't actively doing anything special with my teeth to try to fix them. I just really like milk. The problem just seemed to go away on its own.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by rexf on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:02AM (#26644291)
> Listen to your dentist you trust

Sure, but it's tough to find a dentist since:

> most dentists optimise for billable revenue

I find it hard to trust dentists since they may exaggerate cavities to put money in their pocket.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by wmeredith on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @04:36PM (#26652807)
> Cavities, on the other hand can be arrested (stopped), and if small can even be remineralised. Yes, most dentists don't tell you that!

What is with this sentiment about evil dentists wrecking peoples' teeth prevalent in this thread? Any dentist will tell you that if you brush and floss daily and consume sugar responsibly, that your teeth will be healthy and happy for the vast majority of your life. A VERY small percentage of the population actually does this.

There is no big dental conspiracy to destroy our teeth. We do that just fine on our own.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by throwaway57832 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @02:33AM (#26644136)
> It's so sad that most dentists optimise for billable revenue

I've heard this so often as well as the more general statement that doctors optimize for revenue. I think it's nonsense and even dangerous. People are more likely to die from deadly diseases like cancer because they avoid doctors. The anti-vaccination movement is also very likely linked to this sentiment.

> Cavities, on the other hand can be arrested (stopped),

If they are really small. And even if, teeth with rough surface require multiple times more effort to take care of. (So you really need to chew a lot of gum) Only exception are deep holes, those you sometimes don't want to fill so the tooth can "breathe", at least for some years IIRC.

> and if small can even be remineralised. Yes, most dentists don't tell you that!

2 out of 3 dentists told me to buy remineralization tooth paste and use it once a week. Also I'm getting urged nowadays to go twice a year for tooth cleaning including professional remineralization treatment.

Disclaimer: Not a dentist either. I think medical advice should be taken from people that have actually studied that stuff.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by tmamic on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @03:46AM (#26644515)
> optimize for revenue. I think it's nonsense and even dangerous.

As with everything, there are caveats to the kind of doctor you are talking. The key distinction is that most dentists keep the residual income: the difference between the fixed costs and income. It can be a quite large sum and high % of dentists' earnings. So a dentist has a very strong incentive to increase it. Overtreating patients is the easiest way to do it since increasing the prices is not an option due to competition.

Who isn't keeping the residual income? It's the doctors who work only for a fixed salary. They can't earn more by overtreating. In fact, if they have less work, they are at profit since their salary is fixed. They don't care about increasing the residual income since they don't get it.

So, this is not some conspiracy theory. It is based on economic facts. I've analyzed this in more details here: https://documentation.denther.com/docs/industry/inefficienci...

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by airhead969 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:44AM (#26643910)
Orthopedic surgeons do the same thing. Inject steroids repeatedly, degrading joints in order to do joint replacements. And those joint replacements aren't great, so they need to be replaced periodically.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by nostromo on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @10:50PM (#26643011)
Consumers would beat a path to the door of the dentists that offered this. They would make tons of money. The dentists not offering this product would lose customers and go out of business.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by dannyw on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @10:51PM (#26643016)
I don't know. We see pharma companies killing one-time cures to not cannibalise recurring treatments, even if another company makes the recurring treatments.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by refurb on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:44AM (#26643904)
Yet one of the biggest selling products ever was a cure for hepatitis C.

Pharma hiding cures is internet BS.

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by teekert on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @07:03AM (#26645733)
I believe so too, it would also simply require too many good people in labs all around te world to not say anything about it. I find that highly unlikely.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by mandmandam on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @10:18AM (#26647623)
Try looking up how many whistleblowers are out there that you've never heard of.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by preciz on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @05:46AM (#26645267)
That is one example that was interpreted by you to be valid for all other cases? Seeing your other comments I think you highly trust the medical system. Never trust blindly my friend.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by refurb on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @06:53AM (#26645664)
Please give an example of a cure that has been hidden by pharma. I'm all ears.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by happyconcepts on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @09:53AM (#26647300)
Yet I cannot afford the USD $200,000 price tag for Gilead's cure.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by mjewkes on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:21PM (#26643165)
Where have we seen this? Genuine question.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by ArkanExplorer on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @12:56AM (#26643675)
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by Joeri on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:50AM (#26643945)
Not exactly an example, but the pharma industry has shown a complete lack of interest in pursuing phage therapy, even though it could help solve the problem of antibiotic resistance, because phages cannot be patented.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by samat on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @02:01AM (#26643986)
I’ve heard phage therapy is very individual and cannot be scaled as a reason for slow adoption.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by jtsiskin on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @01:23AM (#26643808)
I don’t have a specific example of openly stopping production of a cure, but it’s hard to imagine that research isn’t shaped by this profit drive: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-patie...

If the profit incentive was removed (let’s say government paid same flat rate for a lifetime supply of treatment, whether it be a cure or a reoccurring pill) I have no doubt more cures would be discovered

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by 0-_-0 on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @05:15AM (#26645059)
Anecdotal, but I heard it from a reasearcher working in pharma that the company stopped developing a drug that cured some condition that another branch of the company had a treatment for.
Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by 0xcde4c3db on Tuesday March 30, 2021 @11:20PM (#26643162)
Smith actually used the tendency toward collusion within trades as an argument against certain kinds of regulation (and corporations, to boot):

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary."

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by nanis on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @04:57AM (#26644963)
> I believe Adam Smith called it "the invisible hand" (w/o explicitly noting that the "invisible boot" is jammed into the "invisible customers"' collective asses).

It is useful to actually read what Adam Smith said and understand it[1]. In fact, I thoroughly recommend reading Ricardo, Mill, Knight, Hayek, Keynes, and von Mises to understand the important conceptual battlegrounds in the history of economic thought.

Smith's problems were mostly about confusing value and price (and thinking there is a well defined, universal "the value" of something -- in this he is joined by Ricardo. Marx merely took those ideas and confused himself due to his lack of knowledge of linear algebra).

Note by "corporation" below, he is referring to trade associations. He is arguing, at the same time, against both licensing requirements AND subsidies for education at the same time (among other things).

He understood the nature of what you call the "invisible boot".

> People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible, indeed, to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much less to render them necessary.

> A regulation which obliges all those of the same trade in a particular town to enter their names and places of abode in a public register, facilitates such assemblies. It connects individuals who might never otherwise be known to one another, and gives every man of the trade a direction where to find every other man of it.

> A regulation which enables those of the same trade to tax themselves, in order to provide for their poor, their sick, their widows and orphans, by giving them a common interest to manage, renders such assemblies necessary.

> An incorporation not only renders them necessary, but makes the act of the majority binding upon the whole. In a free trade, an effectual combination cannot be established but by the unanimous consent of every single trader, and it cannot last longer than every single trader continues of the same mind. The majority of a corporation can enact a bye-law, with proper penalties, which will limit the competition more effectually and more durably than any voluntary combination whatever.

> The pretence that corporations are necessary for the better government of the trade, is without any foundation. The real and effectual discipline which is exercised over a workman, is not that of his corporation, but that of his customers. It is the fear of losing their employment which restrains his frauds and corrects his negligence. An exclusive corporation necessarily weakens the force of this discipline. A particular set of workmen must then be employed, let them behave well or ill. It is upon this account that, in many large incorporated towns, no tolerable workmen are to be found, even in some of the most necessary trades. If you would have your work tolerably executed, it must be done in the suburbs, where the workmen, having no exclusive privilege, have nothing but their character to depend upon, and you must then smuggle it into the town as well as you can.

> It is in this manner that the policy of Europe, by restraining the competition in some employments to a smaller number than would otherwise be disposed to enter into them, occasions a very important inequality in the whole of the advantages and disadvantages of the different employments of labour and stock.

> Secondly, the policy of Europe, by increasing the competition in some employments beyond what it naturally would be, occasions another inequality, of an opposite kind, in the whole of the advantages and disadvantages of the different employments of labour and stock.

> It has been considered as of so much importance that a proper number of young people should be educated for certain professions, that sometimes the public, and sometimes the piety of private founders, have established many pensions, scholarships, exhibitions, bursaries, etc for this purpose, which draw many more people into those trades than could otherwise pretend to follow them. In all Christian countries, I believe, the education of the greater part of churchmen is paid for in this manner. Very few of them are educated altogether at their own expense. The long, tedious, and expensive education, therefore, of those who are, will not always procure them a suitable reward, the church being crowded with people, who, in order to get employment, are willing to accept of a much smaller recompence than what such an education would otherwise have entitled them to; and in this manner the competition of the poor takes away the reward of the rich.

[1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm

Re:Suppressing a gene by using its antibody can lead to toot... by pixel_tracing on Wednesday March 31, 2021 @12:13AM (#26643441)
Then let this be a callout for all you HN types let’s disrupt the shit out of these dentists