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Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Bancakes on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:40AM (#26385052)
You will buy Stadia. You will purchase temporary licenses for limited access to games (one per platform). You will own nothing and be happy.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Grimm1 on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:54AM (#26387008)
Stadia without a very good connection is basically unplayable. Even the fact they have a data center near most population centers who would use Stadia isn't enough to combat it.

A little over a month ago I had thought about doing p2p resource sharing to reduce the amount travel time and latency and make game streaming an edge computing problem and I still think that might be the way to go.

P2P resource sharing in a local area. Start with PC gaming friends with the assumption that a lot of people have local friends when you want to game but not own a PC you boot up the system and it uses your friends GPU, when they play it'll bump you to another friend or in the case you don't have another friend that's where you fall back to a reduced server farm in a datacenter some where to handle that.

As people use the service you gradually expand who can resource share from friends to a general Geolocation based pool. Now you very rarely fall back to the datacenter. Problems like spot instance turnover in the cloud have forced people to solve the problem of gracefully transferring resources before spur of the moment shutdown and worst case I think you can run multiple copies that you could hard cut over to.

You'll need a pretty tight lower bound for the types of hardware that can join that network and be used as resources among other things.

Anyway I'm 100% certain I'm missing a bunch of problems and technicalities here but it seemed like a good enough idea where I still want to set this up in a small example using kube and a few friends' computers.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by thebean11 on Monday March 08, 2021 @11:09AM (#26387212)
> Stadia without a very good connection is basically unplayable.

I dunno, I've used it on connections I consider "not too great" like at my parents house and was surprised at how well it works. Like a lot of things though I'm sure it's YMMV, maybe I got lucky.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Grimm1 on Monday March 08, 2021 @12:44PM (#26388841)
I play on gigabit hardwired and fiber and it was basically unusable for me. They need to do a lot better than that if they want mass adoption imo.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Thaxll on Monday March 08, 2021 @01:01PM (#26389127)
"Stadia without a very good connection is basically unplayable."

This is plain wrong. Tech wise stadia is amazing.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Grimm1 on Monday March 08, 2021 @01:06PM (#26389209)
I mean if you read any of the launch articles or people's experiences including my own you'd know it's incredibly hit or miss.

If anything you're wrong here. Neat tech, swing and miss product and quality wise imo.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Thaxll on Monday March 08, 2021 @01:32PM (#26389576)
I played Doom on my tv ( 10 years old with Chromecast ultra ) over wifi with a 50mb connection ( VDSL ) and was really impressed by the quality, responsiveness, how to setup things ect ... It's basically plug and play and it just works.

What do you define as unplayable? Reading your comments that you have fiber meaning low latency sounds very suspicious.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Grimm1 on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:21PM (#26390974)
I would push a button and it was taking 1-2s to respond in Destiny 2 playing Stadia in chrome on linux. Playing on windows the input lag is less significant but enough where I can push a button and the action happens at basically a high ping couple hundred ms feeling.

Anything with an online component including things like ESO, an MMORPG, had enough input lag where I could not realistically enjoy playing.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Bancakes on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:58PM (#26390714)
It's a glorified VNC client with all its inherent drawbacks.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Thaxll on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:00PM (#26390732)
Actually you have to integrate Stadia in your engine so it's pretty far from a simple VNC, that's why it's better than other solutions.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by pityJuke on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:17AM (#26385353)
I could see this happening for quite a lot of games, sure. But... I'm skeptical just because the experience for some games would be so, so much worse. Anything requiring fine input goes straight out of the window, such as a tactical FPS like CS:GO, or VALORANT. MOBAs, maybe, except when you get to a high level where it, once again, requires precise inputs. Hell, even CoD, FIFA require it when laying against other players. Fortnite gets quite difficult when you consider the prevalence of building in that game - lord knows I struggled with accuracy even on a good machine. I guess Destiny 2 has demonstrated some aspects working, but AFAIK, quite a bit of the game is PvE.

I can't think of an analogous comparison for this in other media, to try and make a comparison to. Either something groundbreaking needs to happen (and doesn't physics prevent this?) or if the transition truly happens, these types of games will require a fundamental change in how they work.

Another thing - if VR ever actually gets any traction, I can't imagine cloud streaming working here.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Noos on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:23AM (#26386041)
Considering none of you want to pay full price for anything ever, get used to it. I don't see people complaining about how Netflix isn't making DVDs and Blu-ray for their content, or buying physical games even any more. You all want the moon; you want digital content forever at rock bottom prices.

The subscription services exist because people didn't want to pay for games. The games as service model exists because trying to make what you want just leads to piracy and enough lost sales to make it not worth releasing the content. GTA V for example probably learned its lesson from the piracy of chinatown wars on portables; its GAAS forever.

This is the world you made, I guess.

I mean, even with advertising on the net; no one wanted to pay subscriptions, and people here wanted content to be free. So the people moved to a model that would get them paid, and it was much worse than if we all just subscribed to physical magazines. Monetization models are often in reaction to the audience's willingness to pay; what we are finding out is that the old model of "buying physical product and not pirating it" actually was the best way to balance value and demands from the customer.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Macha on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:42AM (#26386243)
Unlike the situation with paid media and adblocking, for games, the big boys were usually profitable aside from the occasional flop which was mostly related to bad games or aggressive monetisation. There are probably more examples of games killed by aggressive financial models in the recent past than by piracy.

Consequently there's a lot less sympathy for "We're not making enough money" verus "We're losing money".

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Noos on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:12AM (#26386552)
nah, if anything aggressive financial models seem to work better, because they increase the limit of what people spend on a game. People pay $30 just to own a mount now; and its easy to make a lot of mounts for people who buy them. A fighting game like Dead or Alive costs you literally a thousand dollars for a "complete" version with all DLC. To the point where they just toss the base game for free.

Something like Genshin Impact prints money hand over fist compared to other games. If anything, the worry is that it works too well and drives out less aggressive games.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Bancakes on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:37AM (#26386811)
It's easier than ever to make any game and Netflix is known for miniseries. What this means is it's easier than ever to push a commercial product.

My response is, well, how much money do game devs expect to make in non-original games anyway? Perhaps they should lower their revenue expectancies.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by cloogshicer on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:54AM (#26385171)
Sadly, I believe that this is correct. Look at what happened to music and movies.

The only question is if the tech, and especially people's internet connections will get there. Personally, I much prefer being able to 'own' games and run them on my local hardware. But I think the convenience of not having to download/install/update anything, just hitting "Play" and go will outweigh the disadvantages for most people.

Which is sad, because I think this will make the overall experience worse for everyone, for the sake of just convenience. Everything will be stuck again in walled gardens like Netflix, Spotify & Co are now.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by KineticLensman on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:26AM (#26385437)
> I think the convenience of not having to download/install/update anything, just hitting "Play" and go will outweigh the disadvantages for most people

> Which is sad, because I think this will make the overall experience worse for everyone, for the sake of just convenience.

I miss the convenience of pushing a physical thing that I own into a slot on a device that I own and hitting a physical button labelled 'play'. Especially when the cheap app running on an expensive tablet that connects my expensive physical speakers to the library of all the music I could possibly want to rent for some reason can't see the speakers, even though I have rebooted my wifi, logged off and back into my streaming service account, re-installed the app, updated the speaker's firmware, etc etc.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by antihero on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:10AM (#26385898)
Or you can just plug your laptop/tablet into your speakers and play your local music collection.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by KineticLensman on Monday March 08, 2021 @11:08AM (#26387203)
> and play your local music collection

The local collection that I stopped expanding three years ago because I was now paying for a streaming service.

Clearly, it's a trade-off. I don't miss paying vast amounts for a CD that might at best have one or two tracks that I really like plus a load of fillers. I've discovered a lot of music that I wouldn't have found otherwise thanks to streaming. But I worry for some of my older relatives who can barely navigate a smartphone interface, and for whom setting up the streaming on a modern device is a hit and miss affair.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by antihero on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @04:53AM (#26397124)
> The local collection that I stopped expanding three years ago because I was now paying for a streaming service.

I know that feeling. When what.cd went down it was a tragedy but I was able to continue mostly as normal. I even "slimmed down" my collection to make it more portable, which was a mistake because all of the classics on streaming services are fucking remasters. God, I miss those days of music forums.

My music discovery hasn't had half the same intensity or wonder since those years. Now what, Spotify playlists? Their shitty nerfed "radio" playlists?

I miss music forums and trackers dearly. There's reddit but it's not quite the same.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by nightski on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:16AM (#26385971)
It's kind of amusing because if you have a good enough internet connection to stream, the "pain" you describe of download/install/updating games is virtually non-existant. It takes 2 clicks to install a game on steam or other platform and updates are automatic.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by cloogshicer on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:48AM (#26386937)
You're right, the automatic downloads have made things much easier. But it's still not anywhere near instant play. I have very fast internet at home but games can get tens of gigabytes big. If I have half an hour to play a quick game, that's a non-starter.

And let's not even talk about selecting hardware for a pre-built PC or building a gaming PC from scratch. That's just too much to ask for, for most people.

Don't get me wrong, I love all that stuff. But I think most people don't. That's the only way I can explain why anyone would pay the premium for the awful and expensive experience that are modern game consoles.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by nightski on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:49AM (#26386954)
Sure, if you are playing a new game. I suppose if you like to dabble in huge games that are 10s of gigs in size that might be a problem.

It's a lot more common for me to have a handful of games I am interested in installed and ready to go whenever I have the urge to play.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by disgruntledphd2 on Monday March 08, 2021 @01:32PM (#26389571)
As long as you wait for them to stop patching, you'll be fine \s.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by whynaut on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:26PM (#26391049)
I don’t think it was the case on PS4/XB1, but on PS5 I can choose to play a game while it updates. Did last night with Sackboy.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by npteljes on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:00AM (#26385211)
As soon as subscription is the dominant way, consumers will be squeezed hard. The same thing will happen that happened with for example the cable television: initially paying for it made sense because it did away with commercials and offered a more diverse selection. Now? You pay and also there are commercials, and the selection is quantity over quality.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by FpUser on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:29AM (#26386110)
>"As soon as subscription is the dominant way, consumers will be squeezed hard"

Can't talk about all consumers but in my case I got rid of all TV services some 15 years ago because I felt bein had. Maybe longer, just do not remember exactly. So no they will not be squeezing me hard. I'll just find something else to do with my money.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by krageon on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @06:48AM (#26397926)
You've received some downvotes (perhaps because this read as being too flippant?) but I feel like you've covered it perfectly. The era where cable TV became truly heinous (nothing interesting to see, way too many ads, etc) was also the era where it just wasn't necessary anymore. While you have it it feels like it'd be hard to replace, but let's be honest: It'll take maybe a week of getting used to it and after that you won't miss it.

If subscription gaming gets this bad, it'll go the same way. In thirty years it'll be dying a slow death because fewer and fewer people use it and most people will have moved on to whatever replaces it. After they've spent another ten years dying there'll be the inevitable Netflix (i.e. streaming TV) moment, but for streaming games. Wonderful, but ultimately just the same thing but with time rolled back fifty years.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it might (probably will) go wrong, but nobody will really suffer for it and it'll fix itself given a little patience.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by FpUser on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @07:42AM (#26398247)
>"You've received some downvotes (perhaps because this read as being too flippant?)"

Thought police. Myself I never downvote and do not give a flying fuck if I get downvoted.

As for the rest of your I totally agree.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by antihero on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:08AM (#26385888)
This is why I like GeForce NOW or ShadowPC. You own the licenses to the games but rent the hardware.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by cmehdy on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:58AM (#26387048)
I discovered cloud gaming through Stadia but I now direct all of my attention towards GFN and, for the lack of availability of Shadow and equivalent, to G4dn instances on AWS with Parsec.

It's definitely great to be able to get games on sale on various platforms and then rent hardware to play it on my laptop. Even with pretty heavy costs on AWS I'm still very satisfied (spot instances + one ebs-backed snapshot for the AMI + bandwidth out costs = about 1 CAD/hr played with about $10 of fixed costs). Even if I played a hundred hours per month on AWS, it would barely reach the cost of a basic desktop by the end of a year, let alone anything that has RTX cards. And I'd have to do it all over again soon as specs requirements increase.

I appreciate the ease of use of Stadia but I definitely hope that in this fight it's the generic cloud-computing crowd that wins.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by krageon on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @06:49AM (#26397933)
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd recommend GFN to literally everyone I know if they stopped limiting what games I can play on it. It's really very nice for what it actually works for.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by xwdv on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:35AM (#26385507)
Better than the alternative IMO: Buying to own a bunch of games on Steam every time they go on sale and never even bother to play them because you have a huge backlog of games to work through.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by chii on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:57AM (#26385751)
but nobody is forcing you to buy, and what you have bought will not cost anything to maintain your ability to play them (other than a PC).

And eventually you would finish the backlog, and then you can buy more to fill it again! With subscription, you are paying even if you don't got time to play!

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by donaldo on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:43AM (#26385083)
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not but I completely agree. It’s ridiculous that for housing and cars (the most important assets), leasing and renting is quite common but it’s suddenly taboo when it comes to something almost just as important like my video games. Also less wasteful for the environment to rent and play from a central supercomputer than have to buy my own computer and buy games.

So whenever people express the point you were mocking, I just tell them about the environmental impact and they agree.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Bancakes on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:54AM (#26385174)
I can afford to buy the latest 7nm components, with TDP no more than I need, undervolt them to my performance specifications, use them their entire functional lifetime or sell them to someone. Either way, these are components fully utilised and easy to run on green energy (500W is enough for a beast gaming rig, 250W for most people). There is minimal waste and no overhead to speak of.

Compare this to generations old server farms that require maintenance, extreme cooling solutions, run virtualisation layers on top of virtualisation layers, necessitate 5G equipment and increasingly high internet costs and middlemen, on top of a user device in the first place.

My computer can also be used as charity for Folding At Home, run my homeservers, and train my AI models. All this instead of purchasing different subscriptions for different servers. In effect, I can optimise the hardware exactly to my needs and use it efficiently to its full extent, reducing waste completely.

Not to mention game streaming will never look as good as native rendering, and "negative latency" is physically impossible. I also don't lease cars.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by mekkkkkk on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:50AM (#26385663)
That all sounds good. Maybe you personally can make it work. In reality, for most people it's a cycle of buying new big hardware (consoles, desktop, laptop) every few years, using them very sporadically and then turning them to e-waste. I don't see how a centralized solution could be more wasteful than that.

The latency part is true though.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by donaldo on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:07AM (#26385274)
Good points, I completely agree with everything you brought up. Can you try to find data on electrical usage per hour of a series of centralized RDPs vs your computer?
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by gruez on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:51AM (#26385669)
Random result: https://www.dataspan.com/blog/data-center-cooling-costs/

>According to research, anywhere between 30 and 55 percent of a data center’s energy consumption goes into powering its cooling and ventilation systems

Meanwhile the cooling cost for a computer in a home is probably zero.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by krageon on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @06:52AM (#26397948)
> leasing and renting is quite common

Leasing is common because people don't quite understand they're always worse off with it (though you could make the argument that it saves hassle and could therefore be worth it).

Renting is as common as it is because for a large amount of people it's literally impossible to buy a house where they'd need it (or even at all, without significant moving distance). Renting is always a terrible idea and most people understand this, they just don't have a choice.

Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by Bancakes on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:08AM (#26385287)
It's not letting me reply to your second post but you can find me some RDP, and I'll compare it myself.
Re:A deep-dive into the future of subscription gaming by FpUser on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:49AM (#26386326)
Housing - I did not have enough money to buy it outright so no choice for me here. For cars I do so would never lease one. As for environmental impact - go preach to bitcoin miners and other heavy users. I would suggest starting with 3 percenters.