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Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by m8s on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:40AM (#26275838)
Not only do they make some of the lowest salaries in the industry, they work the longest hours as well. Employers that allow people to "work on their passions" use that as a bargaining chip to lower salaries.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by trentnix on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:46AM (#26275921)
Employers use the reality that someone equally talented will do it for the same wages or less. It's that simple.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by coldtea on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:56AM (#26276038)
"If you have large profits you should share more with your employees [1]" could also be a reality encoded into law woth harsh penalties for doing otherwise...

([1] "And don't try to bypass it by building in another country and then come to sell your wares here")

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by motogpjimbo on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:14AM (#26276315)
Would you also argue that when companies need additional funding during hard times or to expand, the employees should be forced by law to invest their own money into the company? With harsh penalties if they refuse?

If not, then it seems like someone else is taking all the risk but the employees are reaping all the rewards.

It would be great for me personally if my employer was forced to share his profits with me during the good times. But the reality is that during the hard times - when there's a global pandemic for example - he's the one who has to remortgage his house and max out his credit cards to make payroll, whereas I'm just a guy who can walk away with a month's notice.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by hhjinks on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:41PM (#26277486)
>Would you also argue that when companies need additional funding during hard times or to expand, the employees should be forced by law to invest their own money into the company

What, you mean, like, bailouts? Because we do bailouts. Only difference is that, while the taxpayers pay, they see no return.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by foolinaround on Friday February 26, 2021 @04:56PM (#26280327)
Only those with lobbying clout get bailouts. See the situation of the small businesses now...
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by Chris2048 on Friday February 26, 2021 @05:35PM (#26280675)
When did the VG industry get a bailout?
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by AngryData on Friday February 26, 2021 @01:41PM (#26278169)
No, because that was their risk to take in starting a business and if it fails the worst position they are in is the exact position their employees were always in. Businesses should have no guarantees, individual people on the other hand probably should, if not for moral or ethical reasons, just for the fact that it improves our economy, our culture, and out entire society.

Artificially supporting failing businesses has negative consequences upon society, supporting a struggling individual has positive benefits to society.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by IQunder130 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @11:00AM (#26285636)
So you agree that business takes on the risk, but then go around to say profits should then be redistributed by law? Where is the incentive to do business then? Why is artificially supporting failing businesses bad, yet artificially punishing successful ones not?
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by boomboomsubban on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:22AM (#26276419)
Right, putting your time into working for a struggling company isn't taking any risk, and the executives deserve further rewards than just their salary.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by toyg on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:29PM (#26277344)
The reality of LTD companies is precisely that investors don’t have to do that. If the company goes under, well, too bad; they will take some of the fat accumulated in good years, and start again. That’s the whole point of modern capitalism: the capitalist is insulated from the worst outcomes of his enterprise.

At the moment, the risk/reward equation is unbalanced. For owners, it goes from outsized risk at startup to outsized reward at success; for employees, it goes from outsized risk at startup to moderate risk at success

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by jlawson on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:47PM (#26281605)
Employees do not take the same risk as owners/founders.

If a startup fails:

Founder loses two years, his life savings, and gets paid nothing.

Employee loses two years, keeps his life savings, and gets paid salary for that time.

Completely different risk propositions.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by toyg on Saturday February 27, 2021 @05:06AM (#26283839)
Owners can (and do) draw a salary in the same way as employees, and don’t lose any life saving they have not invested, same as employees. If the business die they end up without a source of income, same as employees. If the business succeeds they reap much bigger rewards than employees. I should know, I was one.
[dead]
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by sigstoat on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:11PM (#26277082)
> I know programmers are insulated and have a very warped view of the world

look in the mirror.

most businesses aren't giant megacorps owned by folks with yachts.

and, hell, the megacorps? large chunks of them are owned by folks without yachts, too.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/holders?p=AAPL

this sort of hyperbolic rage only makes understanding and improving things harder.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by analognoise on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:42PM (#26277496)
They already got a 1.9T tax cut. It's hard not to have rage when we're collectively getting fucked.

I know there are a lot of wantrepeneurs here, but let's not pretend we're all not mostly still...workers.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by chongli on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:13AM (#26276284)
If you have large profits you should share more with your employees [1]" could also be a reality encoded into law woth harsh penalties for doing otherwise

Hollywood is already one step ahead of you [1]. No reason game studios wouldn’t follow suit, given a law like that to incentivize them.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by gamblor956 on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:25PM (#26277270)
Hollywood accounting doesn't actually work anymore. It depends, in part, on the people getting played not being willing to sue for their correct share and just taking their lumps.

In part, this is because so many people were burned in the past that it's now standard for contracts to include provisions specifying which profits the talents/investors are getting a % of. There's also many A-list talent that simply refuse to work for a studio which uses Hollywood accounting. And finally, the public-trading status of so many studios today basically renders Hollywood accounting impossible at a legal and financial level.

But the primary killer of the Hollywood accounting system is the big switch to streaming, in which royalties/etc are paid upfront (at a time-value discount) rather than over time, which essentially eliminates all of the opportunity to include "costs" (like usurious interest or marketing expenses) that had been used to generate paper losses on otherwise successful films.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by chongli on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:36PM (#26277429)
A lot of what you said doesn’t apply to game developers or animators in the anime industry. Hollywood workers, famous and otherwise, are all represented by powerful unions. Game developers and anime animators (cf. western animators) are not.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by gamblor956 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @02:11AM (#26283291)
The Hollywood guilds were fine with Hollywood accounting for decades. It was individual actors and directors and producers that filed the lawsuits that made Hollywood accounting too much of a risk for the big studios.

And more importantly, unlike Hollywood talent, game developers and anime animators as a group have never been entitled to a share of the profits of the products they helped create.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by omginternets on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:10PM (#26278561)
I think most people agree with this in general, but the difficulty is in the specifics. How large of a profit are we talking? How much sharing do we expect?

On the one hand we want to incentivize risk-taking and entrepreneurship. On the other, we recognize that it takes a village to launch a successful company, and we want to share the wealth.

On the one hand we recognize that all work is not equally valuable. On the other, we we value people beyond their work.

Abstract discussion of this is always disappointing and policy based on abstract discussion is always disastrous. I really wish we could be more precise in our language, because then we would at least recognize the tremendous difficulty at hand.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by trentnix on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:28PM (#26277311)
Strangely there is always lots of talk about “profit sharing” and not “profit and loss sharing”. And I’ve never had to sign a business loan guarantee as an employee, but I’ve done so as a business owner.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by webmaven on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:25PM (#26278754)
> Strangely there is always lots of talk about “profit sharing” and not “profit and loss sharing”.

That's because corporate limited liability shields stakeholders from losses beyond their sunk costs.

As an employee, you probably are close to last in line behind most of the other creditors, and may have to just write off that last (missed) paycheck. But that paycheck you are never going to get is the full extent of your liability for the company's losses, even theoretically.

Not that it encompasses all the risks you're exposed to (time not working, looking for a new job, etc.) But those are the same regardless.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by sigstoat on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:39PM (#26282626)
> As an employee, you probably are close to last in line behind most of the other creditors, and may have to just write off that last (missed) paycheck.

you're simply making things up. stop it.

you can look up the hierarchy of creditors, and see where employee compensation lands. they're fourth priority, after domestic support obligations (probably not relevant to a business), administrative expenses (gotta pay the courts and court-appointed bankruptcy trustee), and claims from involuntary bankruptcy.

employee benefits are in the fifth priority. there are four more priority levels (6 through 10), and then all of the unsecured creditors.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by webmaven on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @05:42PM (#26405438)
Look, businesses don't go bankrupt completely out of the blue. There are so many ways to ensure that various parties get their pound of flesh while loading up the company with additional liabilities that it is ridiculous.

Sure, technically employees are near the top, but that doesn't help if all the cash and assets are long gone.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by jlawson on Friday February 26, 2021 @07:51PM (#26281636)
It is encoded into law, except instead of sharing just with employees, you share it with everyone through taxes.

There's no reason that an employee who just happens to work at a firm that becomes successful should get profits from that, while a similar employee doing the same work who just happens to work at a failing company should get nothing. How could you justify that?

Putting business profit taxes in a big pot and spending them on everyone evens this out.

Fundamentally all you're really saying is you want corporate taxes to be higher. Which is arguable given the well-understood negative consequences of that which hurt everyone (e.g. taxes dissuade business formation, which means no jobs at all).

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by anm89 on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:02AM (#26276127)
Define large, more, share, and should.

There is a reason this is not what laws look like.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by sigstoat on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:03AM (#26276139)
gee, shouldn't they be required to reduce their costs for the consumer, first? a lot of the folks buying video games have even less money than video game developers.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by mejutoco on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:24PM (#26278735)
Seems difficult to implement. Suddenly a lot of small companies could appear, each barely making any profit.

Maybe an easier incentive would be to give tax breaks to cooperatives?

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by koolba on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:51AM (#26275988)
> Employers that allow people to "work on their passions" use that as a bargaining chip to lower salaries.

That sounds like every startup job pitch.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by bluefirebrand on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:00AM (#26276094)
Big difference is that Startups usually offer some amount of equity. Instead of just being exploited, you're gambling on taking a lower salary now and having it pay off later.

It never really pays off later for game programmers.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by xiphias2 on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:10AM (#26276245)
What startups fail to disclose is that the equity they offer is not the same class as the investors have, even though they are taking a huge risk of the startup failing.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by SkyPuncher on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:31PM (#26278829)
Even if the equity is in the same category, it's unlikely to be extremely valuable.

A $2M exit sounds great until you factor in the extra taxes and 5 to 10 years to realize that. Many software developers could make a substantial amount of that, without the risk, simply by aggressively working career changes.

Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by neonological on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:05AM (#26276167)
Honestly it’s a losing gamble too. You rarely win those options.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by willcipriano on Friday February 26, 2021 @11:13AM (#26276287)
Often the dice are loaded, you can find many stories on here on about some financial trickery whereby the options become low value or worthless as the founders and VC's cash out. I personally evaluate them at $0 because of this. It's a shame too because that sounds like my ideal work setup.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by hhjinks on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:43PM (#26277509)
Pretty sure this article was posted on HN, which is why I remembered it: https://marker.medium.com/my-company-sold-for-100-million-an...
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by skrtskrt on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:48PM (#26277578)
To be fair, part of the startup pitch is also that you'll be building systems from the ground up and getting exposure to lots of different aspects of engineering, rather than being stuck optimizing or maintaining one small part of that gigantic unknowable web of technology you can get at a larger company.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by IQunder130 on Saturday February 27, 2021 @11:05AM (#26285668)
So what you're saying is that when supply goes up, market price goes down? Not much of an insight there. Not something you really could (or even should) fix.
Re:Anime is booming, so why are animators living in poverty? by jonnycomputer on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:37PM (#26278903)
They should unionize.