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Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @06:50PM (#26137450)
This is going to sound egotistical, but it's not intended that way, just the experience of your average prole.

The times that I have been the most successful, most motivated, most driven, most productive, and most useful, in study, career, relationships, and life, have tracked exactly with periods in which I've gotten out what I've put in.

When I started my career and a company took a chance on me - we absolutely killed it, I was paid well for the time, everyone was happy.

When I moved on and was given the respect and decision making ability that I wanted - same thing. Absolutely smashed it out of the park, money flowing from every plug socket.

Whenever I've been in a working environment that has cost cutting, or bureaucratic bollocks, or management that decide what's best for the employees rather than asking them - my productivity has been horrendous, the company has lost money.

Every single time I've worked without return - burnout. Every time, without fail.

This extends outside of work. The last year has been a period in which I've gone from wanting to take part in society, work on big problems like climate change, sacrifice for the greater good, donate my time and money, to just thinking - you know what?

No-one outside of your immediate circle cares. They never did, and never will. They will throw you under the bus immediately and comprehensively as soon as there's even the slightest microscopic threat to their wellbeing.

And they'll cast the blame on you. They'll say it's your failing. They'll say - never mind our responsibilities to you - you need to do your bit regardless.

Well, you know what? Fuck you guys, I'm getting mine now.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by diob on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:10PM (#26137554)
I'm still early in my career (around 32, 8 years in), and I can heavily relate to what you said at the beginning.

The company I work for recently got acquired and the entire culture changed to one of "fuck the engineers, only contracts matter, engineers are just butts in seats, the more the better (quality not required)".

My boss is constantly turned down when he tries to advocate for me, or say that I deserve a slight bonus.

At this point, I have had all productivity beaten out of me. I really don't understand the mindset.

It's been a crash course on how to take a wonderful company and burn it to the ground in a matter of less than 2 years. Most of my coworkers have moved on at this point, and each contract they got out of it has now failed. So what the fuck was even the point?

How do you have 40% turnover and not think "Am I the problem?"?

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by sokoloff on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:08PM (#26137908)
Get out. Now. It won't get better no matter who promises what. If you have one more major vesting date nearby, maybe arrange your departure around that.

I left one place where there was literally a line of 6 of us who all resigned one after the other the afternoon when our annual vesting hit our accounts in the morning. I can't imagine the day that Director had hearing the same story from all 6 of us back-to-back.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by diob on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:18PM (#26137972)
I hear you, and I appreciate the advice. There is a vesting cycle that's yearly, but ultimately it all depends on them selling them the company a few years from now (2023 or so).

While I fully expect them to sell, I expect them to stab me in the back so hard that the shares are effectively worthless.

I've been learning ruby in my spare time, so hoping to transition to a job that uses that in their stack eventually. I think I'm going to take a long break though, I'm very burnt out from the entire experience.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by throwawayboise on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:32PM (#26138424)
If your vested shares don't have a market now, don't wait around. Chances are they never will.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by liamwire on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:46PM (#26137771)
I think this thinking is, at least in part, a result of assuming that the decision makers are optimising for the same outcome as you might expect them to, eg. long-term growth, profitability, etc. rather than, say, bleeding the company of its human equity for short-term increases in monetary profit, that otherwise wouldn’t be attainable, and likely as a result likely furthering that decision maker’s career, assuming they exit before implosion.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by diob on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:22PM (#26137995)
You're exactly right, and I actually called them out on these tradeoffs early in the acquisition.

They were talking about how they were surprised we were able to charge so much for our engineers on our contracts, when all of theirs had much tighter margins.

I told them it was probably because they optimized for winning contracts at any cost vs winning contracts that were worth it.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by rhizome on Monday February 15, 2021 @10:47PM (#26150692)
>The company I work for recently got acquired and the entire culture changed

There is only one thing to do after your company is acquired: get out of the company that got acquired. Full stop: get out. You can do this one of two ways: via the org chart, taking a lateral promotion into the acquiring company, into a part/division/product team/group that existed before your company was in the mix. The second is to leave and get another job elsewhere. Everything else will eventually be discarded.

Acquisitions are always bad for the acquired company. If you aren't laid off in the first year, you'll be pushed to attrition yourself, but make no mistake: the old company is dead and its people and their brains are the least valuable asset to the parent company, so get out of the small company.

>My boss is constantly turned down when he tries to advocate for me, or say that I deserve a slight bonus

Just so it's said plainly: this feeling always means to get another job. Listen to it: you want more money, you deserve more money, and that's a perfectly good reason to leave.

You can come back to this company after you bounce your salary up, or not, it happens both ways, but they aren't going to give you nearly as much as you get by changing jobs. Ever.

>At this point, I have had all productivity beaten out of me. I really don't understand the mindset.

You are in an abusive relationship with the company you work for, this is natural.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by diob on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @12:30AM (#26151240)
Yeah, you're definitely right, it helps to see you put it so plainly. I'm going to do my best to focus on what's right for me, thanks.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by tjalfi on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:03PM (#26137883)
That reminds me of a job I had in the early 2000s.

I was there 9 months and at the end I ranked 5th in the company for seniority.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by foogazi on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:43PM (#26137748)
Shit happens, why are you still there?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by Gene_Parmesan on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:01PM (#26137861)
When you are working for a good company that values you, and embedded in a good team that also values you, there is a bonding that occurs that goes deeper than your average commercial exchange. If you have never been in this position, you may not understand the emotional difficulties involved in watching such a place slowly burn to the ground. Old timers usually still feel loyalty to those of their coworkers who are still sticking around; if the poster's boss is a good leader and strong advocate for them, which it sounds like they are, this can be even harder. People build a lot of loyalty towards good leaders.

Sure, it's emotional stuff, and the purely rational actor would dip without question. But having emotions is healthy and normal, even if it means they sometimes lead you to somewhat suboptimal situations. Of course, it can reach a point where people get locked in out of fear of the unknown, just like bad relationships. But it's rarely as easy as just saying "Okay, time to leave."

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:11PM (#26137924)
I can't find a single thing to disagree on in your excellent comment but there's one more nuance:

"When is the time to let go?"

This goes for all areas of life: intimate relationships / marriages, employment, being part of a hobby club that's not the same anymore, local community help (donations, voluntary labor etc.).

We the people are extremely bad judges of when is the right time to leave -- and 99% of the time we leave way too late. Usually after getting some deep emotional scars as a bonus.

In hindsight (which as they say is 20/20) every time in my life after I left any kind of interaction between me and other people / companies, it was well after I should have. But only in retrospect.

I gradually learned to recognize the signs and started to escalate problems early. And if they aren't addressed, leave early.

Life is too short to keep a death grip on things that are poisoning you. It seems every one of us learns this lesson very late in life.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ah69 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:13PM (#26138295)
This is all a story. How do you know when you should and should not leave? Everything happens on time. You always leave at the perfect time. You can create a false narrative in your mind and say “I should’ve left two weeks or two years ago;” Or, you can be thankful for the way things are and have the attitude that everything always happens the way it is supposed to.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:18PM (#26138322)
At least in the context of my life experience I will disagree somewhat. I have this way of intuiting when I have made the most out of a situation or an interaction (especially when it comes to paid work) and time and again, without fail, I have noticed that due to emotional immaturity I have stayed well after the point at which I stopped learning and thriving and started getting poisoned by various bad (new) conditions.

But don't get me wrong: I am doing my very best not to live with regret and make myself better utilizing those past lessons -- as you said. But analyzing it back in time, I know that I actually had the right mindset but was too weak to utilize it.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ah69 on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:24PM (#26148351)
Sure, but just because you went through periods of getting “poisoned“, why does that mean you stayed too long? Everyone goes through trials and tribulations. You’re making an error by assuming that leaving before the poisoning means you left on time. You always leave on time. The poisoning is part of the bigger plan of life. There’s never a need for regret, for everything happens exactly the way it’s supposed to.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by DelightOne on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:44PM (#26161062)
If only somebody would have told him that leaving once you learnt everything you could is a nice idea. But we don't seem to get such lessons, but rather have to learn them ourselves, right?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:29PM (#26148405)
I wish I could believe that but still... in retrospect, it seems you are correct.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ah69 on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:06PM (#26149418)
I don’t claim to have all the right answers, but I am a psychologist, and I have spent many years learning how to not think. All of the errors, mistakes, and failures in my life can be viewed as lessons I was always supposed to go through. A perfectly positive attitude charms our brains into properly regulating our internal physiology. Anxiety and the other negative internal states (mania, depression) typically can be cured by changing our internal dialogue and our perspective. One thing is for certain: you and I didn’t make this world. We didn’t invent people, trees, viruses, or love. We are part of a bigger picture. I compare it to being an actor in a movie. Why critique the scene? Why look back at previous scenes and wish they were different? Why hope for better scenes in the future? The script is perfectly written. Just read your lines. Play your part right now in the current scene with all of its ups and downs.

Prioritize your health. Go your pace and accept the consequences. Always feel satisfied with your choice.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:43AM (#26153779)
I suppose my biggest issue is actually accepting that reality might not be as malleable as I thought. It's an extremely hard thing to accept even to this day (and I am hitting 41 y/o very soon).

Prioritizing your health is an absolutely sound advice every time. I started doing that and even if the improvements are small and hard to feel just yet, it still feels great to feel better than two weeks ago.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by sokoloff on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:11PM (#26137929)
If poster's boss is advocating for them (or reporting that they are) without any effect, it's a fairly hollow gesture.

If you respect me as an engineer, you do what needs to be done to address my genuine and valid concerns. If you can't, I can still like you as person, but you've ceased to be an effective leader. (I hold myself to that same standard with the teams I lead as well. I'm only as good as 9 parts what I deliver and 1 part what I wish I could deliver.)

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by tharkun__ on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:29PM (#26138726)
I've also seen the opposite. People leaving way too early. Younger people usually who were jumping ship way too fast. Then they were miserable at their new job and jumped ship again. Not good on their resume at all.

I think they didn't realize that they had actually found a truly awesome company by chance and were witnessing its conversion to 'normal company'. Nothing more, nothing less. But if you ask me it was still totally bearable. The devil you know type of situation and hey, I'll let them pay me f they keep wanting to. I can still jump ship if they turn from normal company to actual evil (like introducing the kinds of perks that try and bait you into working 80 hour weeks and thinking it's fun and worth it and normal) company. I can still jump ship then.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by foogazi on Thursday February 18, 2021 @09:17AM (#26180025)
> If you have never been in this position, you may not understand the emotional difficulties involved in watching such a place slowly burn to the ground.

I have been in that position before - that’s why I’m asking

I stayed 11 years at my previous job because it was fun and we were shielded us from a lot BS.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by diob on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:13PM (#26137940)
Honestly, I was lucky enough to negotiate my total compensation around 3 years ago before the acquisition using an offer I had.

So while I'll never see another raise again, I have very decent overall total compensation, especially for the cost of living where I'm at.

The other side of it, is that I have about 3 months of vacation built up. The TLDR on that though is they tried to take it from me about a month ago (carry over policy that I was told I would be exempt from). I told them straight up I would leave that day, so they reneged in the end. But I have no clue how they wouldn't assume I'm going to just take it this year and look for another job.

So my play now is to enjoy the compensation while looking for another job.

I'm also pulling back heavily in my support to the organization, which is tough because I'm not used to putting in less than 110%.

I'm trying to look on the bright side though. I think this experience may have cured me of my tendency to be a workaholic.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by tharkun__ on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:35PM (#26138765)
I obviously don't know what company you are at or what 110% means in that context. However unless you're Ar a FAANG type company I would venture that 110% is waaaay more than your regular coworkers put in. Probably at 50% levels if you are lucky. Personally I am lucky to work with lots of bright people that put in their 100%. But even there we have 50%ers.

So my advice: put in your 110% for 90% of the time (or something like that :)) I do this periodically. When required I'm there 110%. Done with something at 2pm Friday? Yeah well today I'll just call it a day instead of fixing yet another bug from the backlog that wasn't even in the sprint.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by wikibob on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:29PM (#26138730)
Why aren’t you interviewing to go somewhere better?

HTTPS://Levels.FYI/2020

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by Jochim on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:20PM (#26137616)
I think the most important thing for motivation and empathy is a sense of agency over one's own life and actions. When you feel like you have no control over what you do each day or don't have the freedom to make meaningful choices, it's very easy to slip into depression.

I've experienced similar situations professionally. My previous employer was happy to hear and implement ideas from anyone on the team, it lead to a really productive and tight knit group, things got done well and at a good pace. My current one is the opposite. Very prescriptive, ideas coming from the top down. As a result everythimg moves like molasses and it's killed all the motivation I have for the work I do there.

I'd urge you not to give up. I still believe things can change for the better, it feels like we're at a tipping point where society will either improve massively or fall into stagnation. Gen Z gives me hope that the former will win out. They seem much more active and interested in tackling these issues than older generations.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by nextos on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:06PM (#26137531)
> The last year has been a period in which I've gone from wanting to take part in society, work on big problems like climate change, sacrifice for the greater good, donate my time and money [...]

This might be the biggest problem human race has to solve. How to encourage and reward good behavior for the greater good. Economists would say it's a problem on how to price in externalities. It doesn't matter.

I see it everywhere. In academia, most big PIs I've met don't care about pushing knowledge frontiers. It's about their own careers, putting their names on as many manuscripts as possible and securing funding to hire more and more people.

In my neighbourhood teens are systematically breaching COVID restrictions with huge illegal parties, spreading disease and therefore causing fatalities. Since the odds of having severe COVID are low for them, they don't care.

The local power plant was scamming with their emissions in a VW-like way, by tampering CO2 meters in their chimneys.

I could go on and on.

How can we address these behaviors? Pg has said somewhere I can't find now that scaling big companies is still an unsolved problem, and that solutions are welcome. I think it's the same class of issue. Once you are big enough to require a layer of middle management, you won't be able to filter out the selfish ones.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by wongarsu on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:18PM (#26137602)
This is something East-Germans are lamenting about when comparing East-Germany to West-Germany. Of course some of this self-serving behaviour exists everywhere, but as a society or even community you can put a focus on the "we" or on the "me". Our society happens to mostly stress the "me" part, which leads to the outcomes you describe.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by refurb on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:50PM (#26137795)
The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”.

And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by wongarsu on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:01PM (#26137864)
The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited.

I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge strengths of other systems that otherwise failed, and hope to find a better model that has similar advantages with fewer of the drawbacks.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by TuringNYC on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:39PM (#26138457)
I agree capitalism and incentives produce loopholes, but a lot of those can be closed pretty easily with good governance. For example, many of us are tech workers and paid with stock/options/equity. This is a great system to align incentives -- we're all in the same boat to win or lose.

..except when we're not. You often see in-group worker game the system by taking ever increasing cash comp ("i win either way") or special incentive bonuses for managers who ensure delivery. Meanwhile, VCs are on first-out preference shares. Worse, you often dont know this is happening so you continue to think the real game is cashing out your equity.

This is poor governance IMHO. And many workers end up sniffing it out. The ultimate capitalist system would have absolutely guaranteed comp by equity w/o special side incentives.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pasquinelli on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:39PM (#26138105)
other systems don't just happen to fail. they were strangled by capitalism. given that, how do you really expect to find a better model with fewer drawbacks and put it in place?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by refurb on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:32PM (#26138064)
Oh I don’t disagree. Capitalism without regulation can result in poor outcomes for some markets. As you said, regulations can help but also create loopholes that are quickly exploited.

But I think it’s disingenuous to say that a system focused on “we” suddenly solves all the issues with capitalism (which is what the grandparent was trying to infer).

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by treeman79 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:24PM (#26138005)
Wrong. Focusing on “us” ends in ruling class and endless poverty everywhere.

Alternatives to capitalism have been tried and it always fails.

Venezuela is the most recent example.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pasquinelli on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:42PM (#26138119)
Venezuela is struggling because of a focus on the collective, not because of sactions, blockades, and coup attepts... none of that has any real effect.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by imtringued on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:22AM (#26140823)
A common point in Bitcoin submissions on HN is that a deflationary cryptocurrency would help with the inflationary currency (e.g. in Venezuela) and make it possible for the average person to build wealth.

I just looked up Venezuela's situation. Well, food prices are going up because diesel sanctions prevent farmers from running their tractors. That's definitively not a currency problem.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ClumsyPilot on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:11AM (#26141984)
Alternatives to Monarchy have all been tried, and it always fails.

Focusing on freedom ends up in anarchy and chaos everywhere.

Freench revolution is the most recent exanple - just look at the amount of people beheaded!

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:09PM (#26137548)
Amusingly, without realising it, your post specifically hits on the reason I'm done with society.

It's individualism for me now. Me, my friends, the neighbours.

Everyone else, figure it out, I'm not your pawn.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ctdonath on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:08PM (#26137905)
Hence the American Revolution and subsequent Constitution: enough government to keep the basics together, otherwise do whatever you want. ...and occasional civil wars (small and large) reminding leaders to keep it that way.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by krapp on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:17PM (#26137966)
>...and occasional civil wars (small and large) reminding leaders to keep it that way.

And yet, oddly enough, countries with regular civil unrest tend not to be bastions of civil liberty, but violent mafia-run hellholes.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ericmcer on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:25PM (#26137643)
Well I mean, economic systems that attempt to leverage human benevolence have all failed. Capitalism at its root leverages our base qualities (greed, fear, desire, etc.) to motivate members to be productive. It has been the most successful system thus far, despite its many, many faults.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by hezag on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:09PM (#26137911)
These attempts haven't failed because they are intrinsically worse, but because they were systematically threatened and sabotaged by the greed-driven players.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by imtringued on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:24AM (#26140840)
Greed doesn't go away in a non capitalist system.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ajmadesc on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:10PM (#26137918)
Don't understand why this is down voted, it's being one paycheck away from poverty that keep 70% of Americans from telling off their bosses
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by TeMPOraL on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:09AM (#26140733)
It's funny how this goes. Capitalism is great because it promises individual freedom and giving everyone what they wants, while also holding 70% of Americans at economical gunpoint, justifying that with "well if everyone truly got what they want, nobody would produce and civilization would collapse".

Perhaps the capitalists should drop the talk about freedom and voluntary trade. Or we need a new word for "freedom" that doesn't classify structurally coerced choices as "free".

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by imtringued on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:28AM (#26140866)
>Capitalism is great because it promises individual freedom and giving everyone what they wants, while also holding 70% of Americans at economical gunpoint

If government policies are set in a way that encourages this outcome then that's what you get. It doesn't have to be that way.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by TeMPOraL on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:01AM (#26141107)
You don't need government policies that encourage this outcome - this outcome is the default. Money begets money, wealth accumulates where there is more wealth. You need active government policies to prevent/reverse that, but those are hard to maintain because wealth also buys power.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by username90 on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:30AM (#26141292)
Wealth doesn't buy power directly. In a democracy most power comes from voters, so the only way to buy political power via wealth is to affect the voting process by spreading misinformation or manipulating the people. For example in USA the voters are made to believe that they can only vote for people who has spent their lived taking bribes from corporations. That of course isn't true, but as long as people believe it then it money is power.

In nations where people don't believe such blatant lies money doesn't turn into power nearly as easily. And look, poor people in those countries are actually much better cared for and live better lives than in USA! The bottom 90% are 90% of voters and therefore have all the power to make whatever policies they want. And once the 90% makes a lot of policies it is really hard to stop them from continuing doing that, you have to work really really hard to keep them away from power and to continue keeping them away.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ClumsyPilot on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:17AM (#26142019)
Either they are structural outcomes of capitalism, or capitalism doesn't really matter, quality of governance does.

You responce sounds like you are trying to have it both ways

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by loopz on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:45AM (#26139499)
The post includes opposite thoughts, and such gets downvoted on HN.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by ip26 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:57PM (#26137844)
Having kids was a huge perspective shift towards doing my part & seeing the inherent value in other people. No silver bullet, of course, as plenty of people have kids yet act only for their own self interest.

But it is interesting to wonder if decreased birth rates could be both a symptom and cause of decreasing collectivism.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:07PM (#26137902)
I am not sure where you're living but where I am birth rates are declining because people literally cannot guarantee they'll have money to feed their kids.

Not a very glorious or elaborate response, granted, but Occam's Razor must never be ignored.

"Decreasing collectivism" is only stemming from "every man for himself" because the economy is objectively getting worse and worse for most folks out there. It's a very logical outcome.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by eyelidlessness on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:01PM (#26137860)
I think the thing you’re missing, probably because of whatever motivated you to use “prole” without irony, is you’re not a prole and don’t experience the economic impact of being inherently undervalued. People who never experience compensation resembling what they “put in” and are constantly navigating burnout.

It’s not egotistical it’s just a matter of perspective. Most people don’t get to decide or don’t have enough energy to decide to “get mine” even if they knew where to begin.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:06PM (#26137899)
You are absolutely right on every point.

There was a time, when I was.

And I've been blindingly lucky to crawl, bit by bit, out of that.

But I still identify with that, because precisely the same societal decisions that fuck me, are the ones that fuck them too.

I owe them something. They're still struggling.

I don't owe the rest of society anything at all.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by eyelidlessness on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:09PM (#26137912)
I suspected that was in the mix and wanted to leave space for you to say so. I’ve been on this track too. This is why my approach is to extract as much value out of my privilege as I can and funnel as much of that as I can to my people who don’t share that privilege.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pgsimp on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:07PM (#26137536)
Presumably companies that don't pay you well are already struggling, so their problems (that you were put to work on) were also more of a struggle.

Of course companies who are doing well can also afford to pay more and give all sorts of perks to their employees.

I suspect often that is the actual causation, not vice versa. People like to point at successful companies and say "see, if you would treat your employees like that, you would be just as successful". That seems a bit silly.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by eyelidlessness on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:23PM (#26138000)
I think this is more than a bit naive. Companies have a wide variety of values. Some certainly do the best they can for their hires as they’re able, others very shrewdly extract every bit of value they can. Most fall in between in a variety of ways.

But assuming the best intent is just plain ahistorical. We’re only a century out from when companies routinely hired armed security services to threaten and ultimately murder people organizing to get their share of what wealth they created. That’s widely understood to be excessive now and those of us in privileged career positions take that for granted, but I think it’s worth remembering that some people still have that to survive and most of the rest of us are navigating a kinder gentler version.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pgsimp on Monday February 15, 2021 @03:09PM (#26146700)
"routinely hired armed security services to threaten and ultimately murder people organizing to get their share of what wealth they created"

To be honest that sounds to me as if those people "organized" to take by force what they thought they deserved. In that case, hiring security for defense seems justified.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by eyelidlessness on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:28PM (#26149564)
Welcome to the dueling value systems of labor since feudalism I guess? But the “force” used by labor wasn’t violent, just large scale solidarity.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by lostcolony on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:15PM (#26137588)
Of course not.

But you mention causation. You have to treat your employees well if you want to be successful. It is necessary, but not sufficient.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pgsimp on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:20PM (#26137615)
It just seems too simplistic to me. Sometimes there is struggle.

Taking an extreme example, soldiers at war. Are they generally being treated well? I'm not sure they are, and I don't necessarily mean deliberately. I don't think generals want their soldiers to be killed, in general. It just happens that situations arise where there is struggle and soldiers get killed.

I remember complaints about CD Projekt Red (makers of Cyberpunk 2077) who had to ask for death marches despite of initial promises to ever do so. I don't think they liked doing that, but presumably the business situation made it necessary.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by paulryanrogers on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:40PM (#26137732)
Considering how quickly CP2077 became profitable I doubt it's a good example of necessary death marches. Quite the opposite. I suspect they could have delayed until winter 2021 and still turned a profit easily.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pgsimp on Monday February 15, 2021 @03:10PM (#26146717)
They would have had to survive long enough, though. Profits in the future don't help you to pay your bills in the present.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by paulryanrogers on Monday February 15, 2021 @08:19PM (#26149863)
Considering the success of Witcher, GOG.com, and their preorders it's unlikely they would have gone under.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by lostcolony on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:40PM (#26138791)
CD Projekt Red also has a profit sharing arrangement with its employees, that not only means they're getting compensated better than they likely could with most other game developers (certainly other Polish ones), but also created the pressure for a death march. The further the game was delayed, the less time for sales within the year (including missing Christmas rush and the like), which would reduce profit for the year, and directly impact employee compensation.

So the pressure to deliver sooner rather than later also directly benefited the employees financially, even if it negatively affected their time and work/life balance.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by chillfox on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:50PM (#26137794)
Their marketing outright lying about the progress and leadership not caring made it "necessary" to catch up.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pgsimp on Monday February 15, 2021 @03:11PM (#26146727)
Why, what would have happened if they hadn't? Say they promised it for some time, and then don't deliver on time. Then what?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by chillfox on Monday February 15, 2021 @06:50PM (#26149259)
Then presumably some people would have been disappointed.

So instead they decided to crunch and deliver a buggy game with the result that other people were so disappointed that they didn’t buy it.

I don’t know which is the bigger group, but I wish they would have delayed it.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by throwanem on Sunday February 14, 2021 @06:56PM (#26137484)
Okay. And what does that have to do with the article under discussion?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:00PM (#26137497)
The entire article is about people who are treated as human beings being more effective at their jobs.

I'm saying that this applies at every level of the scale, in work, love, friendship, society, everything.

We are wasting mind-bendingly tremendous amounts of talent in our world simply because of tunnel-vision mindsets.

And it saddens me that as hard as I try, I can't change this. I've spent my career trying. The well has run dry, and now I'm one of them. :/

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by throwanem on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:21PM (#26137623)
Oh, I see.

The culture in which you and I and many others live is, in the current historical moment, a deeply deranged one - 'deranged' not in the colloquial sense, but as an engineer might use it: we live within a giant machine which for a long time now has been operating dangerously far outside its design parameters, with all the metaphorical noise and smoke and flying bits of molten steel that entails. We're all dodging its shrapnel all the time, to a greater or lesser degree. Or failing to dodge. I forget who said it, but I like the way it's put in this (paraphrased) quote: "Everyone is walking wounded. We have never seen a totally sane human being." - not even in the mirror.

Even in the best of times, such a machine needs a large team chosen from among the best of people to operate it effectively. These are not the best of times, and they are not the best of people. Whether there'll be any fixing it before the bearings seize and the spindles snap, I've no idea. But even if they run it to destruction, that won't be the end of the world, although from here it seems like it would be. And either way - in the meantime, we all still have to get through the day, you know?

It's to your credit that you tried so hard. But there's no shame in losing to something that's this much too big for any of us. Try not to take on too much about it, and spend some time thinking about how it, and you, might be if the machine does stop in your lifetime.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by loopz on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:54AM (#26139553)
It's simple.

Human to human, one at a time.

Skip the interactions that discount you.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:57AM (#26139564)
I like this sentiment. :)
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by IntFee588 on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:01AM (#26139281)
There are quite a few studies that support this; higher earners generally work more hours, since their time is more valuable. The only exception is at extremely high income brackets. Minimum wage earners are being paid to show up.

https://www.nber.org/digest/jul06/why-high-earners-work-long...

Companies that are better to work at have generally seen more growth in their stock price:

https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2020/...

Doubt these findings will change corporate policies however.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by mulmen on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:12PM (#26137568)
Thanks for sharing, your experience resembles my own.

Can you explain your change of heart? You mention it happened in the last year but I’m not sure why. If anything this last year has motivated me to do even more. And I believe we can and will, but I am in a good place professionally.

Are you speaking more personally than professionally?

It sounds like maybe you did achieve some of what you set out to do but maybe you don’t think it was enough?

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:17PM (#26137595)
The way that my country has, and is handling the coronavirus pandemic, has meant that their vision of the future of society has diverged from something that I wish to be a part of.

It's not about my accomplishments, but whether I feel like I have a stake in this. I have no stake in it now. They want a future that I don't want.

No social ties, no bonds, no community. No counter-culture. No culture. No high street. No shopkeepers.

Amazon, Deliveroo, Uber, Facebook, Netflix.

Skyrocketing wealth inequality. Printing, printing, printing, QE, home prices ten times the median wage.

An elite, and an underclass.

A society that interacts, in a regulated manner, through a screen. By _force_.

Because it's "safer". De-risked. Comfortable.

And their answer for me? Therapy. Anti-depressants. Coping strategies. Learn to love the screen.

Embrace the new future.

Not me. Your insults, your attempts at control, they bounce off me now. "I'm alright, Jack", as they say.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by dddd4alll on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:42PM (#26137741)
There's an old movie called They Live, starring wrestler Rowdy Roddy Piper.

It was supposed to be satire on consumer culture. Looking at it again, it's could be called forward time shifted documentary.

Now that you've become "Red Pilled" as wrong thinker, you'll search out for more truths.

Especially how the establishment elite class pushes propaganda and pits the lower classes against each other.

When lower classes are fighting each other about racism, etc. then they don't have time to fight against oligarchy. How the establishment elite keeps getting richer every second.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by paulryanrogers on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:43PM (#26137749)
Is mask wearing, temporary social distancing, and vaccination asking too much from the individual to sustain the weakest and most vulnerable in society?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:45PM (#26137764)
Not at all.

Those are the most minor, trivial aspects of what has happened over the last year in the UK, and what continues to happen as we speak.

How about we make a trade.

I'll wear a mask in situations where others are concerned, take my vaccine, and you may distance from me as much as you'd like. You know, like I am and have been doing for eleven months now.

In return - I want my life back. Let's reinstate the democratic process, let's make it legal for me to go for a walk without an excuse, run my own business without having goons lock the doors, you know, stuff like that.

You keep your end of the bargain, I keep mine.

Fair trade? Or is this the part whereby you call me names, shout at me, and expect me to respond in kind?

I am choosing to do this, for you. It does not benefit me. Take it for granted at your own peril.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by chillfox on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:05PM (#26137894)
Ah, the UK, It has been interesting to watch your "circus" from the other side of the planet.

IMO, the UK handled Covid exceptionally poorly by repeatedly being afraid to act until it was too late.

Here in Australia (Specifically the Northern Territory) we locked down hard early on while we had around 20 cases, I think it was for 2 months, after which no further lock downs have been required. Quarantine for travelers has prevented Covid getting in to the community. Basically due to how we have handled it life is pretty much the same as before Covid here, restaurants are open, the shopping mall is packed and the only thing we had to give up was 2 months and international holidays.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by nickthemagicman on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:21PM (#26137988)
You have more chance of dying from car accidents than Covid if you're under 55 years old.

By locking down hard on age groups who aren't vulnerable to the virus you're enabling the clown world that OP is referring to.

Sure lock down the elderly that's fine but making national health policy based on one demographic is full on straight clown world stuff.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by TeMPOraL on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:23AM (#26140830)
Car accident rate doesn't grow exponentially, with doubling time measured in days.

With an infectious disease like this, what you want is to curb its ability to spread. That means disrupting the entire social network, because while the virus is most dangerous to the elderly, it spreads best through the young. Also lung damage, the fact that small chance of disability or death multiplied by whole country getting infected equals to more harm than inconveniencing everyone a bit and nipping the problem in the bud, yadda yadda. These are all tired points.

The main way UK (and US, and a chunk of EU) response was a "clown world" was pretending there's no problem until it was too late, and then doing too little, and then doing stupid things that nullified the effect of previous interventions.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:37AM (#26141342)
Your second paragraph is of course true.

But right now, we're eleven months in and it's illegal for me to have a single friend over for a cup of tea.

Not advised against; not something we should limit; illegal, punishable by law.

I'm at the point at which I've been told by medical health practitioners to ignore this nonsense and see people for my own wellbeing.

We have a vaccination program running in the UK and it's going fairly well. The thing that is keeping me clinging to sanity is the fact that once the vulnerable groups have been vaccinated, I'm just getting on with life.

Without that; well the news is saying 'social distancing until 2022' and the Government are telling us that maybe in a month it'll be legal to sit on a park bench with a coffee.

This is not me being hyperbolic. It is currently illegal for me to leave my house and sit on a park bench.

If I followed that stuff to the letter, I'd have already gone postal or just thrown myself in front of a train.

This is a policy that, if it works at all, works for specific types of people; nuclear families, introverts, etc.

Those might even be a majority.

But it's not viable at a population level because a significant percentage of people are either in situations whereby they need to mix households in order to function, or have brain chemistry which means that avoiding social mixing for prolonged periods (months or more) causes them to become depressed, anxious, or in extreme cases psychotic.

We're doing all of this stuff in an attempt to reduce coronavirus cases prior to vaccination, because we care about public health, not purely for the sake of it. That would be "clown world".

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by TeMPOraL on Monday February 15, 2021 @06:37AM (#26141764)
Ok, fair enough. I didn't mean to diminish your experience. I also I didn't realize meeting in homes is strictly illegal in the UK. That sounds a tad bit excessive, for the reasons you outline (over here in Poland, it's currently max 5 people except the host and people living with the host, and I think there was no actual case of enforcing it against small family&friends gatherings).

> But it's not viable at a population level because a significant percentage of people are either in situations whereby they need to mix households in order to function, or have brain chemistry which means that avoiding social mixing for prolonged periods (months or more) causes them to become depressed, anxious, or in extreme cases psychotic.

That's absolutely true. The long-term effects of social restrictions on public health and general morale was something somewhat unexpected, or at least not thought much about early in 2020 (and, hindsight being 20/20, only confirms that the big mistake was not doing hard but short lockdowns early on). I'm just hoping we can vaccinate our way out of this in the coming months, because even introverts are having troubles taking this much longer. Myself, I started this pandemic in a state of being burned out by interacting with other people - a year later, I now desperately crave some socialization, but I'm not sure if I'm even capable of it anymore.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @06:48AM (#26141841)
Meeting indoors has been illegal in London since December 2 and based on current communication will be illegal until at least March 2, so that'll be four months of it being illegal to meet any person from outside your household indoors.

I actually had to look this up in order to make sure I had the dates right, but it's absolutely correct.

It is also illegal to meet a single person in your garden or outside unless you're exercising. I don't have exact timings on that, because in order to protect my mental health I've stopped following the news.

"A tad excessive" is understating it a bit. It's inhuman. Writing it down makes me feel ill. When people talk about it as if it's normal and okay, I get an intense feeling of anger and a desire to cause them pain.

So if you want your perspective on why people are acting like "covidiots" or whatever offensive name we're applying to our brothers now - this is why.

I am done with bureaucratic despots telling me what to do, I am not a guinea pig to be experimented on.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by nickthemagicman on Monday February 15, 2021 @12:32PM (#26144876)
I'm glad people are starting to get angry.

I've felt like you for a long time, after monitoring the actual statistics instead of the news.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by nickthemagicman on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:23AM (#26142053)
How do you explain lack of exponential growth in numerous place without Covid restrictions?

Do you think Covid is following an exponential growth model in the under 55 age group if in a YEAR there's still less deaths than car accidents?

Covid is way more complex than "SHUT IT ALL DOWN, EXPOENTIAL GROWTH, FLATTEN THE CURVE".

These have just become buzzwords for simple minds to cling to a simple narrative and don't model the world accurately at all.

Honk honk! Welcome to Clown world!

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by chillfox on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:07PM (#26138267)
COVID is not just about deaths, it also has a risk of lung/heart damage. Also, even if people don’t die or gain lung/heart damage they can still take up hospital capacity until there’s not enough capacity for the people who can survive with hospital care but won’t without.

Anyway, my point is that the UK choose their current situation by being afraid to act back when small steps could have made a huge difference.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by nickthemagicman on Monday February 15, 2021 @07:47AM (#26142212)
Oh right and Covid toes?

No no it doesn't.

What is the percentage of people who have that type of reaction? Have you even looked at that? It's miniscule.

It's argued not to be from Covid directly but by comorbidities and would happen with any illness.

The news media blew it up out of proportion to scare you and millions of other people like you who have a poor grasp ofstatistics and risk... for money and it worked!

Welcome to clown world. Honk honk!

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by chillfox on Monday February 15, 2021 @06:45PM (#26149222)
Honestly, the only people who seem to be in clown world now are the people living in states that did not take it seriously early.

Your leaders not taking it seriously to begin with is the reason you are in this situation now.

Where I am we took this seriously early last year, and as a result have been able to live life mostly like normal since.

Anyway, you live in a democracy, so maybe convince as many people as possible to vote someone else in at the next opportunity. And if you think they are all stupid then run yourself.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by nickthemagicman on Monday February 15, 2021 @10:48PM (#26150705)
Borders closed is not really somewhat normal.

Honk honk!

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by Jochim on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:20PM (#26137981)
I'm curious as to how your opinion has changed during the course of the lockdowns?

I'm tired of it as well, but rather I feel the length of the lockdown is a result of the prevarication that took place in the beginning and a continuing series of poor choices intended to save political face afterwards.

My opinion is that had we locked down hard and early, banning foreign arrivals until the pandemic passed globally, we'd have quickly been able to meet without putting anyone's health at risk and at a lower economic cost.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:37PM (#26138091)
Mostly, my mental condition has declined as I've started to realise that we have increasingly slid into considering perpetual lockdowns and cessation of democracy to be a normal state, rather than a state of emergency.

Initially, at the start of the lockdown in March 2020, people voluntarily acted far in excess of legal requirements, or even guidelines.

I think that this made sense, and I'm proud of our behaviour on that front. I remember walking out of the house, once a week, in my homemade mask, to do the weekly shop.

Beyond that, as we learned more about the virus, but bizarrely went the other way and started to make everyday activities unlawful in an attempt to control the population, well, I've been increasingly choosing not to comply for the sake of retaining my sanity.

The Government simply does not get to decide on my behalf whether I have my friends and family over for dinner. I don't give them that power; if they wish to send men with guns like an authoritarian despot, that's their choice.

I think that if we'd enacted sane policies it wouldn't bother me as much.

Amazon, Deliveroo, Uber etc should have had an 80-90% windfall tax for the duration given that their competition is essentially illegal.

Tenants with no income should have had their rent cancelled. Not delayed - cancelled.

Working from home policies should have been optional for employees. Students should not have been required to pay full rent and full fees for Zoom calls.

But we haven't done any of that. We've taken a public health crisis and used it to absolutely destroy the country.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by loopz on Monday February 15, 2021 @01:06AM (#26139627)
UK half-assed the lockdown response since March. So when a country lose control, their hands get forced. This leads to even worse outcomes. Witness consequences in US too.

It's a leadership problem, and hard to fix for regular Joe.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @01:13AM (#26139665)
No-one was forced to enact laws against me visiting my family.

It leads me to my original post:

> They will throw you under the bus immediately and comprehensively as soon as there's even the slightest microscopic threat to their wellbeing.

> And they'll cast the blame on you. They'll say it's your failing. They'll say - never mind our responsibilities to you - you need to do your bit regardless.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by loopz on Monday February 15, 2021 @02:48AM (#26140191)
This leads you to circular reasoning to justify your own outrage that healthcare crisis laws exist for a reason.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:01AM (#26140674)
There's a distinction between "healthcare crisis laws" (such as the initial lockdown for a few weeks in the UK), and making it illegal to visit friends and family indefinitely.

I'm just repeating myself now though.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by imtringued on Monday February 15, 2021 @04:45AM (#26140993)
You know, the problem is that nobody goes and thinks "Oh we have messed up, now we need stronger lockdown measures, if only we had done a weaker lockdown sooner we could have avoided this" instead everyone thinks "The government is subverting democracy. We must fight back." x months later "The government is getting worse. We must fight back even harder"
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:00AM (#26141095)
We are eleven months in.

I voluntarily restricted myself for a long while. Far, far longer than I should have, to the point that I may have given myself brain damage.

Now I am visiting my family because I'm not willing to do it indefinitely. The UK government is waffling on about restrictions until 2022 despite the fact we'll have vaccinated most of the vulnerable in a month or two.

Everyone has their breaking point, and I've reached mine.

Two weeks to flatten the curve, yo.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by loopz on Monday February 15, 2021 @01:13PM (#26145349)
Maybe news from other countries may be more informative than your current sources. Current projection in my country is that by summer every adult may've been vaccinated. The vaccine lessens severity of the disease, even if it doesn't block it entirely. So we might be on track to open up sooner than expected, which initially could be 2-3 years trajectory following fast-track of normal vaccine development.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:19PM (#26148284)
The issue is lockdown and how the UK government chooses to proceed, not coronavirus spread or science.

I'm opening up from March 23, they can do whatever they want.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by deathlight on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:23PM (#26148331)
That's a long two weeks.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:44PM (#26138136)
No, of course this is not asking too much, and my family has been doing it diligently ever since the regulations started.

But I can't help but wonder if there wasn't another way, like making only that most vulnerable part of society go in lock-down -- and nobody else. Most of the elder people aren't exactly spending hours outside every day anyway (by my observations at least which can of course be wrong). And many of them don't have the physical energy to be active outside, so maybe making only them go in lock-down would have been the best outcome for everyone?

Who knows. But in general the COVID pandemic has been handled extremely poorly almost everywhere. And businesses are closing down forever.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by paulryanrogers on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:37PM (#26138447)
You might be surprised how many people have underlying conditions putting them at increased risk: obesity, poor sleep habits, immune system disorders. And we've yet to see the long term effects of this flavor of SARS for those who survive. Hindsight will be 20/20, so hopefully we can learn and prepare better next time.

Thankfully it appears the vaccines will be effective if enough people get them for life to return to normal soon.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:44PM (#26138487)
"Next time", I and many others will simply refuse the lockdown strategy, and if it so happens that it's a virus that has high lethality across all age groups, loads of us are going to die before the evidence is clear and we start to voluntarily reduce interactions.

"Just a few weeks to flatten the curve" was a once in a generational play. I did my bit, and so far I've been punished for it.

I really hope for our sake it doesn't come down to this again, because this time it really will be a bloodbath, rather than a particularly bad year or two.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:49PM (#26138516)
You are spot on. People around here are at the brink of rioting. The limitations are becoming too much for everyone.

You are absolutely correct that there might not be "next time" even if that means humanity's doom.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by loopz on Monday February 15, 2021 @01:09AM (#26139645)
Get better leaders.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:11PM (#26148192)
Well, I mean, we have been trying to do that ever since democracy was invented. At which point "get better leaders" becomes a discussion shutdown technique and not an answer given in good will?
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Sunday February 14, 2021 @09:55PM (#26138551)
Same can be said about any illness you go through life though. The SARS virus isn't special in this instance. It got exorbitant amounts of attention and I can bet my life that there are much worse things out there to look out for.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by paulryanrogers on Sunday February 14, 2021 @10:39PM (#26138787)
How many illnesses are as novel and contagious as COVID appeared to be during its ascent?

Careless reasoning risks under reacting just as much as over reacting.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by pdimitar on Monday February 15, 2021 @05:19PM (#26148285)
Agreed -- both extremes are harmful. My point was that this particular disease has been blown way out of proportion.

I've read a study in my home country about children suffering from bronchopneumonia (I was one of them) at early age and how does that affect their adult life -- and how much does it reduce their life expectancy (especially in terms of increasing the chance of pulmonary diseases in elder years).

I mean, all diseases are awful -- especially those that leave lasting negative effects.

The whole thing seemed to turn into a campaign to gain political capital at one point. Enforcement was loose, rules changed many times (the WHO organization didn't help matters there), and data gathering was unreliable for months.

What are we to do? Just bow our heads and pretend that the people in power are oracles? I am willing to obey well-informed decisions but at least where I live clear facts were extremely hard to get throughout at least half the 2020.

I don't necessarily disagree with you -- making this clear here. It's just that the pandemic was handled in a rather totalitarian manner and results have been... questionable.

:(

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by cccc4alll on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:49PM (#26137784)
Be careful, you'll be called wrong thinker and censored and deplatformed.

There's an old movie called They Live, starring wrestler Rowdy Roddy Piper.

It's supposed to be satire on consumer culture, but looking at it now can be thought as time shifted documentary.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by esotericn on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:53PM (#26137818)
Amusingly, I actually rewatched this just last night. Brilliant movie.

Are you sure you're not the one that's spying on the wrongthinkers? ;) Just kidding.

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by A12-B on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:28PM (#26137655)
I can't really blame you, a bad system rewards this kind of individualism, and individualism then feeds into a bad system. In a better world we would consider human beings not as decentralised entities but as one big connected mass, and fixing poverty would actually raise everyone up.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by cccc4alll on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:16PM (#26137958)
Who controls the bad system now and who controlled the bad system in the past?

Why is it not getting better?

Who keeps getting richer every second, while everyone else stagnates?

Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by giantg2 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @08:21PM (#26137987)
At least you've had good money coming in. I've been burnt out. I've knocked it out of the park. But I've never seen really good pay or even authority.
Re:How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive by vmception on Sunday February 14, 2021 @07:54PM (#26137829)
I like to imagine this is Gavin Newsom