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Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by K0balt on Saturday January 09, 2021 @06:40AM (#25699570)
Wow. that rate of descent, and so shortly after takeoff (no time/altutude for hypoxia, etc) points strongly to a major structural failure or at least a catastrophic failure of flight control systems.

In that phase of flight, pressurization would be just starting to build, I wonder how many cycles that 26 year old airframe has on it?

Also, is it known if there was anyone of major political or financial consequence on board? Getting to that altitude is also a common trigger for barometric switches.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by wp381640 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:31AM (#25700639)
25+ yo airframe, Island hopping, budget airline, Indonesia

All points to fuselage maintenance

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by numpad0 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:50AM (#25700779)
Did they figure the pickle fork issue?
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by HarryHirsch on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:16PM (#25702181)
Not applicable, that problem was introduced in 1997 with the 737-NG. This aircraft here was manufactured in 1994.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by nealabq on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:33AM (#25701738)
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by xvf22 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:54AM (#25700801)
Or wiring given the 737 history but then again, it's a shot in the dark.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by clon on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:03PM (#25704130)
Elevator are hydraulically operated, while trim is actuated by steel cables + electric trim. I imagine an electrical short with the trim mechanism cannot be ruled out. But this is all pointless armchair speculation, borderline bad taste.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by cjbprime on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:34PM (#25704439)
In case anyone gets the wrong impression: there is mechanical control of trim too, and "runaway trim" has a checklist item set of responses that every pilot trains for. You can lose electric trim without crashing.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by flatiron on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:38AM (#25701196)
What wiring issue would get you nose down?
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by quattrofan on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:39AM (#25701795)
A fire and then damage to control surface connections.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by coredog64 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:54PM (#25702584)
737 isn’t FBW.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by xvf22 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:29PM (#25703011)
Plenty of wiring in and around the fuel system and running close to control cables.

Are you implying that fire couldn't interfere with control of a non FBW aircraft?

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by labcomputer on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:26AM (#25712306)
The 737 classic (which the incident aircraft is) uses hydro-mechanical controls. It can be flown with zero functioning electrical buses.

The only electric parts of the primary control system are the electrically-driven auxiliary (backup) hydraulic pumps, the stick shaker (stall warning), and the motor for pitch trim (located in the cockpit, connected to the trim wheel). Unlike the MAX, the classics have a large pitch trim wheel with lots of leverage, so you really can fly it with manual trim.

In the event of a full hydraulic failure, the ailerons can be operated mechanically from either seat, and pitch can be controlled via the elevator trim mentioned above.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by verelo on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:54PM (#25703287)
No fbw on the concord yet they lost control of air surfaces seconds after the fire started.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by numpad0 on Monday January 11, 2021 @02:30AM (#25725831)
I don’t get the downvotes. Jammed or severed wire linkages were involved in many non-FBW crashes.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by asd4232 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:07PM (#25702108)
If the weather was bad it could also be caused by a pilot getting disoriented, or perhaps an instrument failure. Plenty of aircraft with perfectly working flight controls have been nosedived to the ground either due to spatial disorientation, or pilots believing a faulty attitude indicator.

Of course suicide is another possibility in such cases.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by Reason077 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @07:45AM (#25699915)
Suicide by pilot is another possibility. It's certainly happened before (SilkAir 185, EgyptAir 990, Germanwings 9525, possibly Malaysian 370)
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by w0utert on Saturday January 09, 2021 @08:15AM (#25700097)
Judging from the flight path and altitude data that seems extremely unlikely, it looks like the plane just fell apart and came down like a brick in an instant.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by Reason077 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @08:38AM (#25700222)
I'm not sure that alone rules anything out. If we look at the flight profile of EgyptAir 990, for example, it dropped 15,000 feet in about 30 seconds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990#/media/Fil...

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by cm2187 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:09AM (#25700478)
Also you wouldn't expect a single pilot to be in the cockpit at that stage of the flight.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by e_proxus on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:12AM (#25700504)
What damage could a co-pilot cause even with another pilot present? A steep enough descent might not be recoverable under certain conditions?
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by DaiPlusPlus on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:00AM (#25700850)
Aircraft are designed to not enter those “certain conditions” by default - I understand the PF needs to override the flight-control-law to intentionally crash the plane, but I don’t think there’s a two-person-rule before that can happen.

Anyway - this is why I’m glad I’m not involved in safety-engineering because supposing that setting sensible defaults that reduce accidents in 99.999% of cases would lead to horrible terrifying deaths in 0.001% of cases (e.g. one-way lockable reinforced cockpit doors) would be too much on my mind.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by asd4232 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:16PM (#25702185)
Some more modern aircraft indeed have such protections, but this was an old 737 without any such stuff. Simply pushing the control column fully forward would send the plane into a dive pretty quickly.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by coredog64 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:57PM (#25702611)
The controls are mechanically linked. Unless the perpetrator incapacitated the other flier, it’s a test of strength. There’s no method for disconnecting the second set of controls in a 737.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by FeeJai on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:29PM (#25703007)
That is incorrect. There is a friction clutch between the controls in case there is a mechanical jam the other pilot can at least control half the control surfaces. It needs a significant amount of force to detach, though. It is documented on Egypt Air 990 however that both elevator surfaces turned into opposite directions.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by RolloTom on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:31PM (#25704404)
Like @FeeJai already wrote, that's incorrect. Look up for Atlas Air Flight 3591 crash, boeing 767. Spatial disorientation, dual imputs on yokes, split elevator. https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/628156-atlas-air-3591-nt...
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by vidanay on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:07PM (#25704171)
I am not disagreeing with you, but I just want to point out the absolutely stunning safety of modern air travel. Using your 99.999% number against the number of FAA flights of 16,405,000[1] per year (that's just US FAA, not global). This would result in 16405 "incidents" per year. Luckily for us, the actual number is far lower than 16405.

[1] https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by ericbarrett on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:56AM (#25701370)
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by numpad0 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:27AM (#25701665)
That was F/O without another pilot present
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by asd4232 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:15PM (#25702171)
Even if another pilot was present, from that altitude a suicidal co-pilot could easily cause an unrecovable dive and crash. If two pilots pull/push controls to opposite directions they kind of neutralize each other, and obviously the suicidal one would have element of surprise as an advantage.

In fact just that happened on EgyptAir flight 990. A suicidal copilot was able to crash the plane even with another pilot present, and that happened from a higher altitude.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by hnarn on Saturday January 09, 2021 @08:53AM (#25700339)
How does that make a suicidal pilot “extremely unlikely”? That’s exactly what I’d expect a plane directed downwards to look like.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by DaiPlusPlus on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:55AM (#25700812)
Does the airline have a two-person rule for the flight-deck and/or lockable doors though?

What concerns me about the cockpit lockable doors is how obviously it would lead to tragedy (e.g. Germanwings) - I’d have hoped that the locks would open if unusual aircraft attitude changes were detected - because what’s the point of keeping the cockpit door locked if the aircraft is already erratic? Chances are something weird is going on in the flight deck and it’s in the pax’ best-interests if the cabin-crew can get in.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by amelius on Saturday January 09, 2021 @10:42AM (#25701241)
I wonder how "walkable" a plane is after it takes a nosedive, and if the type of doors would make any difference in one's ability to reach the cockpit.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by twelve40 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:22PM (#25704315)
Apparently, some manage to make it to the cockpit (that was before reinforced doors):

> the aircraft suddenly went into a rapid dive nose-first, resulting in weightlessness (zero-g) throughout the cabin. Despite this, the captain was able to fight the zero-g and re-enter the cockpit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by FeeJai on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:30PM (#25703030)
As long as there is air friction complete zero-g is highly unlikely. It takes a lot of training to set the engines correctly to cause zero g by compensating exactly the air friction
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by stretchcat on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:50PM (#25703244)
A malicious pilot could injure/incapacitate anybody who wasn't strapped into a seat with aggressive maneuvering. I expect it takes a lot of training for a 'vomit comet' pilot to not toss everybody around like ragdolls, but a suicidal pilot trying to kill everybody wouldn't be gentle about it..
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by lolc on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:30AM (#25701705)
Zero-g is very disorienting to humans. But an experienced pilot could probably handle it and push themselves towards the cockpit.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by stretchcat on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:43PM (#25703155)
An experienced airline pilot almost certainly has zero experience moving around in zero-g. Pilots just aren't trained for moving around a freefalling airplane. There are only a handful of 'vomit comets' in existence that could provide such training, and I've never heard of airline pilots being trained in them.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by lolc on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:30PM (#25703731)
I didn't mean to say that pilots have zero-g training. I just assume that most pilots could handle zero-g enough to orient themselves towards the cockpit. But maybe that's optimistic.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by VLM on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:40PM (#25702435)
What an odd time to do it, unless for some crazy reason the lat/lon location mattered.

I'm just saying it takes less than a second to hit a ditch or another plane or commo tower while taxi-ing on the ground. Or suddenly do almost anything when you're 50 feet off the ground at takeoff surrounded by all sorts of interesting ground targets to hit. Drop the landing gear or flaps at the wrong speed at a low altitude. I suppose someone indecisive or having medical / drug issues could take a long time to talk themselves up to it hours into the flight.

There is one situation I'd expect a crash halfway thru climbout right after takeoff and from military experience if a load is incorrectly lashed down in the cargo hold and lets say the strapdowns in the front of a tank or howitzer are installed correctly but the ones in the back snap or were incorrectly attached or the tiedowns rusted off LOL (I suppose it happens) then sliding a tank or an artillery piece thru the nose of the plane while in flight will make quite a mess. Yes I'm well aware a civie 737 is not a military C130 but the general case holds that's just about the right time in a flight profile for something in the cargo hold to start sloshing around if not strapped down correctly.

Plenty of opportunity for cascading failure. Trivial to engineer a cargo system where one thing breaking loose cannot screw up weight/balance enough to crash the plane. But one thing breaks loose, slides at high speed into another thing breaking it loose, now you got two uncontrolled loads sloshing around in turbulence, repeat, repeat...

I'm also well aware that a 737 is not a military transport in WWII but there was a documented problem with sabotage in WWII where enemy agents dumped water into the rotary engine oil system and the water eventually boiled about ten minutes into flight, steam popped open the oil system, the engines seized without oil, the mechanics got blamed and the agents continued their work because no evidence just water... Obviously almost certainly not the situation now, but the general idea of "it gets up to full temp a couple minutes into flight" remains valid. I wonder what happens to the airframe if an engine bearing catastrophically seizes and cold welds itself in flight. At minimum I bet the entire engine tears itself off the pylon. Worst case maybe the engine takes the wing with it even if its not supposed to. AFAIK the shroud around engines is supposed to be able to eat a turbine blade that snaps off to prevent damage to the wing, but maybe there's a freak situation of the engine disassembling itself in flight such that the shield shroud thing is blown off milliseconds before the turbine blades are shed into the wing...

I'd extend my remarks based on radar data from

http://www.b737.org.uk/incident_pk-clc.htm

This is a very low performance aircraft (In the sense of not like a F-16) and 11 seconds isn't long enough to intentionally maneuver from a normal climbout based on radar transponder data into falling out of the sky. A F-16 could turn 40 degrees and point straight down in 11 seconds but a 737 literally can't, so essentially it went from a normal climbout to cloud of parts falling from the sky slower than the plane at cruise. The radar transponder profile looks a lot different for a plane in one piece under control pointed at the ground. Pieces of aircraft are not aerodynamic at all, which is why parts fell at 10K to 20K feet/min but the groundspeed collapsed from 300 kts to 100 kts in eleven seconds. I'm honestly not sure even a F-16 can drop from 300 kts to 100 kts in eleven seconds in a steep dive, although a random collection of torn metal falling from the sky can do that.

Its interesting that if you google for the flight manual data for a 737, best maneuvering speed to handle maximal turbulence loads is just a couple knots below best climb speed, which the plane was at. So if a pilot was suicidal, he tried to pull the wings off at exactly the flight condition where the plane was strongest; no pilot is uneducated enough to make a noob error that huge. Pull up as hard as you can at cruise, sure. Wiggle the rudder as hard as humanly possible (usually due to crosswind) while landing has torn tails off planes. But try to pull the wings off when flying at manuevering speed? That's just dumb. So no the pilot almost certainly was not suicidal.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by FeeJai on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:32PM (#25703052)
There is a documented accident like this of a civilian B747 cargo plane carrying military equipment that shifted to the back. National Airlines Flight 102

Very scary and impressive videos of the crash on YouTube

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by sonofhans on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:58PM (#25703339)
This type of comment is one reason I keep coming to HN.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by hnarn on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:43AM (#25712894)
What’s so good about it? There’s a lot of musing about why this wasn’t a suicide, but for all the claims of relative certainty it makes it doesn’t once refer to one of the existing cases of pilot suicide we already know of. If this theory is correct, there’s already precedence to show how it fits into past events as well, but there’s not a word about it.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by coredog64 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:01PM (#25702671)
The area under the passenger cabin is pretty constrained. 737 operators pretty much just chuck luggage into the hold. And because it’s a manual operation, nobody is going to sneak a huge chunk of tungsten or DU onto the plane, at least not in quantities that would throw off weight and balance on a 737.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by asd4232 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:10PM (#25702132)
Usually when a plane "falls apart" you'll have an accident scene with larger pieces intact compared to a plane nosediving to the ground in one piece.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by clon on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:08PM (#25704184)
Please don't. This is unsubstantiated bullshit at this point. It is a lot more likely that they fought the plane (or their own somatogravic illusion, or ..?) to the bitter end. To put pilot suicide out there, requires some supporting evidence on your part.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by stingraycharles on Saturday January 09, 2021 @04:56PM (#25705261)
I think most of speculation in this thread is mostly unsubstantiated, as we know nearly nothing. I think it’s fine that the parent points this out, at the very least should not be berated like this.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by bb88 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:59PM (#25708708)
Fun fact. When I flew Delta for the 4 years before the pandemic, anytime a pilot used the restroom, it was mandatory that a flight attendant take their place -- for exactly this reason. Sit in first class long enough you begin to get comfortable with common flight procedures.

Keep in mind it's not that the flight attendant can pilot a plane, it's that they can unlock the door to let the other pilot back in the cockpit.

While it is unlikely, it's still a possibility, and one that Delta, at least, is worried about happening.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by Reason077 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @11:28AM (#25716300)
Yes. But there are, of course, plenty of reasons why this policy is a good idea besides the unlikely possibility of malicious/suicidal actions on the part of a pilot.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by bb88 on Monday January 11, 2021 @12:17AM (#25724877)
No. That's pretty much the main reason.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by Reason077 on Monday January 11, 2021 @05:09AM (#25726883)
No, it’s one reason but it’s far from the only reason.

Medical events and incidents that cause incapacitation of a flying pilot are rare, but less rare than suicide by pilot incidents.

Consider what would have happened on BA 5390, for example, if only one pilot had been in the cockpit with the cockpit door locked.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by bb88 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:00AM (#25760145)
I actually asked the crew and that was the reason stated.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by TeaDrunk on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:55PM (#25703314)
I think this might be ruled out- Indonesian news sources have cited sounds of explosions as well as an eyewitness account of the plane exploding in midair. If it's pilot suicide, it's certainly unconventional.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by FabHK on Saturday January 09, 2021 @09:15PM (#25707990)
Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Wouldn't put much stock in that for now.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by dehrmann on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:08PM (#25702768)
The 737-Classic is more reliable than humans, so some amount of human error would be my first guess.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by cambalache on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:40PM (#25702432)
If you look at my comments you will see that I am generally against American powerful institutions and the sadly common American arrogance, but in these kind of things I am 100% behind the American mindset. How convenient that all these clearly suicide-by-pilot incidents are called "inconclusive" by the national , non-US, agency. Is saving face a price worth paying for? This does not help anybody and basically protects a person, who no matter how troubled and depressed, was in essence a mass-murderer.
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by Denvercoder9 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:11PM (#25702817)
> How convenient that all these clearly suicide-by-pilot incidents are called "inconclusive" by the national , non-US, agency.

The French and German agencies investigating Germanwings 9525 ruled it a suicide.

Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by cambalache on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:36PM (#25703091)
I thought about saying "western" mindset, but I didnt want to open that can of worms
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by kepler1 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:00PM (#25702660)
BTW what do you mean by the American mindset?
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by cambalache on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:37PM (#25703098)
truth over feelings, appearances or face saving. Not always true, but pretty much spot on in air disasters investigations
Re:Sriwijaya Air flight SJ182, a Boeing 737, has disappeared... by TedShiller on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:18PM (#25702205)
True. That happened to Atlas-Air 3591. Investigation conclusion was basically bad pilot.