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Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by blisterpeanuts on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:40PM (#25692379)
<parody>

Okay, let's retroactively suspend John McCain for singing "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" on a hot mike.

President George W. Bush should be suspended for invading Iraq on false or flimsy pretexts, resulting in 6,000 American soldiers killed and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

Obama lied when he said "you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan" eleven times and this turned out not to be true (90% anyway). Shouldn't the social networks censor patently false and misleading statements by a very influential leader?

Ronald Reagan said something about launching the nukes on the USSR, I don't remember the exact quote. Cancel him off social media.

Et cetera.

</parody>

The harm in censorship is that it actually reduces the flow of communication and information, for future historical records as well as for the present.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by krona on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:56PM (#25692726)
If Gutenberg could've been pressured in to restricting what combinations of words were allowed in his press, the enlightenment ultimately may never have happened. Simple as that.

The problem is today's printing presses are not owned by the people who use them, and can be confiscated without warning or recourse.

The consequence will be the end of liberal society, but society will demand it.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sdwa on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:50PM (#25693720)
Ummm maybe I'm mistaken but censorship was widespread throughout Europe during the enlightenment and yet the enlightenment still happened. The paranoid American style where anything but free speech in the most absolute and extreme terms is guaranteed to result in tyranny and the destruction of civilisation itself isn't really born out by any of the facts.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by newguy1234 on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:27PM (#25693287)
The death of freedom of speech is ushered in with thunderous applause.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by casefields on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:11AM (#25698232)
It's true. Nazis didn't come to power with boos and jeers. The baddies always come to power with thunderous applause and it's pretty much all that's been going on today over deplatforming one side of the political spectrum.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by w0de0 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @06:37AM (#25699558)
QAnon, Neonazis, Donnie and his fellow grifters, &tc are not a “side of the political spectrum.” God help us if they are.

There are still plenty of conservatives around. If Twitter isn’t enough for you, you’ll find them also on the nation’s most popular broadcast channel, Fox.

And they can make their own damn platform. It’s a free country, and that includes the freedom of private business to tell them to go away.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by zapnuk on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:24PM (#25693248)
Gutenberg is one example, Hitler another one.

It like people already forgot that followers of the president committed an domestic terror attack right after attending his rally.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by busterarm on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:34PM (#25693431)
According to some reporters who were there, people were already in the Capitol Building _during_ the rally and that there was a steady flood of people heading there before the rally finished.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by zapnuk on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:40PM (#25693546)
The capitol was clearly barred+fenced off. They FORCED their way in. All of it was televised. Why even try resort to fringe observations by "some reporters".
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by tylersmith on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:51PM (#25693736)
There is plenty of video of them being let in. They took down the barricades and just started letting people in. This camera person for a news outlet just walked right in with 0 force.

https://twitter.com/insidernews/status/1347646782659031043

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by zapnuk on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:41AM (#25701835)
Because at that point they are heavily outnumbered that point they couldn't do much besides securing the MVPs (Senators, personal etc.).

Here is the video where the terrorists crushed an officer to death: https://twitter.com/joshscampbell/status/1347749675777011714

The doors were definitely not open at the beginning, which everyone who watched it live clearly saw.

What he did see is a violent mob who forced their way into the building and a police which was outnumbered and not prepared.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by busterarm on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:52PM (#25693743)
> The capitol was clearly barred+fenced off. They FORCED their way in.

Neither of these facts are in dispute by anything that I said.

All I was saying was that it did not start after the rally, but during.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by zapnuk on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:28AM (#25701676)
Then whats the point of you comment if not to sugarcoat the fact that Trump's followers committed an act of terror.

Doesn't matter that some may have been there earlier. The vast majority went there after the rally. And of them a significant portion conducted or threatened violent actions against the capitol, police, politicians, and the free press.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by pnw_hazor on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#25693479)
This will lead to more violent unrest -- it will be seen as more "proof" that Big Tech, Big Media, and Big Gov are aligned against them.

Crazies on /pol/ and elsewhere use the term acceleration to celebrate actions by either side that move society closer to violence. This move by twitter will be welcomed by them.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by anigbrowl on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:27PM (#25694634)
True, but frankly I'm tired of appeasing these people and listening to their constant threats of extortion. If they decide to step across the threshold then we can stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and deal with it as a straight conflict of interest.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by blisterpeanuts on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:35PM (#25693450)
Really? How many were killed by the terrorists?
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by zapnuk on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:44PM (#25693604)
It appears that (at least) one person died by the hands of them.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/capitol-police-o...

Also, a terror attack doesn't need to kill people.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sthnblllII on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#25693483)
If trespassing is domestic terrorism, we might as well just tear up the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by hk__2 on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:48PM (#25692582)
That’s not censorship (private companies, etc), and reducing the flow of harmful communication is a good thing.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by blisterpeanuts on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:01PM (#25692817)
It is the very definition of censorship.

And one man's "harmful communication" is another woman's useful communication.

Since your comment is egregiously wrong and, in my opinion, harmful, I'm going to delete it so that it doesn't mislead people about the harms of censorship.

See where I'm going with this?

I say my opinion, you present your side, and we can debate, or move on, but we have both had our say (albeit, at varying shades of grey on HackerNews ;)

The notion of "harmful tweets" is a very 2020s phenomenon but the concept goes back thousands of years. There's a reason our Bill of Rights is strongly inspired by Voltaire, Descartes, and other (then) modern thinkers.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will give my life for your right to say it."

It feels as though we've backslid from that ideal.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by asiando on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:31PM (#25693381)
It’s pretty simple, really.

“I hate Bob” is fine.

“Bob should die” isn’t.

Some tweets don’t need to exist because it might lead Bob to be killed, especially when said by someone with a cult-like following.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sillycon-valley on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:39PM (#25693517)
"Bob should die" should be allowed to exist and is. It can be said jokingly, yes it's bad taste but not credible.

"Bob, I am coming to kill you" or "Bob I'll kill you if you don't do X for me" a court would say is probably a credible threat, which is already illegal.

Why do we want to shift the responsibility of deciding how to police speech to private companies?

Sticks & stones.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by asiando on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:51AM (#25697733)
Jokes aren’t included.

However some jokes already are illegal or at the very least will get you in trouble, for example there’s one word you can’t joke about in airports.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sillycon-valley on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:15AM (#25697890)
My point was credible threatening speech is already illegal in America.

Another point would be who decides what is or isn't a joke or hateful?

Do you want the companies to decide what the correct speech is, would you like a government panel to police speech?

Currently, I like illegal speech being the only rule because it gets murky otherwise.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by asiando on Sunday January 10, 2021 @01:13AM (#25711237)
> My point was credible threatening speech is already illegal in America.

So we agree. Trump’s tweets were pretty credible, don’t you think?

This whole mess this week happened because of one person who incited violence.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sillycon-valley on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:56PM (#25719684)
We do not agree. There was nothing credibly threatening in his tweets.

This whole mess happened because of the instigating of the media and the riots all year.

This event did not appear out of nowhere, there was major tension building and there still is.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by hk__2 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @06:06AM (#25699389)
If this were your platform and its T&C explicitely said that harmful content is not allowed, in my opinion it’d perfectly fine that you delete a comment you deem harmful.

> "I disagree with what you say, but I will give my life for your right to say it."

FYI none of the people you cited ever said that. This is a 1906 quote by Evelyn Beatrice Hall that has been misattributed to Voltaire.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sixothree on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:05PM (#25692886)
I want to agree with your argument. But your point that this is censorship is so off base. By definition, it's just not.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by Proziam on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:24PM (#25693240)
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by nilkn on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:57PM (#25692743)
Censorship can be performed by private companies. From Wikipedia:

“Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient." Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and other controlling bodies.”

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sixothree on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:06PM (#25692907)
It would be censorship to _force_ a company to say something they didn't want to say. That is clearly taking away their rights to free speech.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by valvar on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:13PM (#25693030)
Are you being purposefully obtuse, or do you actually believe that HN wrote your comment?
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sixothree on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:17PM (#25693107)
I don't think you understand. Read it again. But sigh. I could explain it again.

Disallowing companies from banning users would be forcing those companies to carry content they disagree with, thereby removing their right to free speech.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by Proziam on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:28PM (#25693317)
Your stance is effectively that social media sites are publishers instead of platforms. This is my opinion as well, but it carries with it liability. Unfortunately, they currently are immune to such liability while being able to choose who can say what.

If they want the protections the phone company gets, they need to act more like the phone company.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by Rapzid on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:54PM (#25693778)
It's not really. You can disagree with something but still not be responsible for it and carry it on your properties. You can also disagree with it and not carry it.

I can even prove it.

That's how it works. Right. Now.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by undersuit on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:34PM (#25693429)
Control. Trump is not controlled by Twitter. He is controlled by the government just like the rest of the US. A school, they control the children, and they have a limited control over the child's free speech. Your job, possibly a private institution, has control over you. They can censor you with the power they have.

We need the 1A because we don't get to choose our government, we do get to choose our internet messaging platforms and they choose to work with us.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by raldi on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:55PM (#25696654)
"What, you think we should be filing our nails? Okay then, let's just cut our arms off."
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by filoeleven on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:24PM (#25694557)
None of those things were said/done over social media—I could be wrong about Obama here. All of those statements and actions were covered by the media because they were newsworthy.

Some of Trump’s tweets are also newsworthy, of course. But the format of direct communication without context to millions of followers is a big part of how he was able to spread and maintain such a false view of reality.

Before, any statement from a president was reported on, and usually presented with additional context that includes fact-checking where possible, by a broad range of left- and right-leaning news outfits. That’s no guarantee that batshit-crazy lies don’t get through, as we saw with Iraq WMDs. But it generally provides better safeguards. Trump can still call a press conference, or even put out videos from the White House, any time he wants to. It is not a hardship. I’d argue that he liked Twitter precisely because he controlled the information, and could rely on people to take him at his word.

I realize that I’m painting kind of a rosy picture here, since so many trump followers already hate and distrust the media. But presidents got by without Twitter before trump and if it came down to it, whitehouse.gov is just as easy to check for new statements that aren’t edited by the MSM. And I think this is too little, too late from Twitter as well—they never should have made a separate set of rules for him. I don’t think your “future historical records” holds water here, since every tweet he’s made is already archived elsewhere, unless you were getting at something different.

As a similar thought exercise to yours, if in the administration’s view the election was stolen, that surely counts as a national emergency, which qualifies the president to “tweet” whatever he wants over the emergency broadcast system. There are plenty of other avenues he can use.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by gthtjtkt on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:27PM (#25693292)
You forgot Kamala Harris, who encouraged the extremely violent and destructive BLM riots that killed more than 25 people and caused over $2 billion in property damage. That didn't seem to get Twitter's attention. She even set up a bail fund for the terrorists who participated in those riots.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by metabagel on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:22PM (#25694512)
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by therealdrag0 on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:31PM (#25697014)
A small percentage of a large number is still a sizable number.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by hndudette2 on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:45PM (#25697143)
Flying on 9/11/2001 was "mostly safe" because less than 96% of flights were hijacked. Also a true statement, but ridiculous.

The BLM riots resulted in 19 dead, and thousands of properties damaged. It's equivalently true to say "Trump protests/rallies are mostly non-violent", since the majority of them (probably rivalling the 96% in the article you mention) have had few issues with violence until the recent insurrection. But that would just be a vacuous talking point.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by Pulcinella on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:34PM (#25693437)
Do you a single fact to back that up? I don’t even like Kamala but I don’t think she set up a bail fund for the police, though she has called herself “America’s top cop” so it wouldn’t surprise me.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by blisterpeanuts on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:39PM (#25693512)
Kamala Harris and several others in the Biden campaign tweeted support for a bail fund; I don't think she herself set up a bail fund but my knowledge about this is limited.

1. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/man-accused-of-rapin...