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Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Nextgrid on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:23PM (#25624311)
> No one is willing to run the experiments necessary

The people that would have the power to run this experiment have their entire careers depending on things staying as-is. Running the experiment carries a significant risk of exposing that the advertising operations they're responsible for provide much less ROI than they pretend it does.

The unwillingness of anyone to run such an experiment is already an answer. Why wouldn't someone jump at an opportunity to prove the thing/service they provide actually works, unless they were unsure about it themselves?

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by adwww on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:27PM (#25624912)
I used to work in this industry.

A small tech team investigated fraud on our platform and developed a system that was pretty robust at detecting and potentially shutting it down. But literally nobody was interested - even the people advertising don't want to know.

The people spending money are typically networks, media buyers, ad agencies, etc, far removed from the actual brand.

There are so many parties who want a slice of the brand's cash that they are all long past caring about whether the ad is being viewed by a human or not.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by base3 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:44PM (#25627132)
I worked in adtech. I built a simple ML system that detected signals of fraud on our network. When I reported my findings execs told me the group that was facilitating the fraud was our only profitable division. Soon after, our company went bankrupt. My final paycheck was months late.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by adwww on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:54AM (#25629003)
Sounds exactly like my former employer ha.

IIRC our system wasn't even fancy ML - just finding known user IDs with identical timestamps over many simultaneous clicks / impressions on really diverse publishers.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by walshemj on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:22PM (#25625379)
Agency or client side?

I assure you the big brands CFO's take a huge amount of interest in what is spent on advertising.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by syshum on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:27PM (#25625406)
In my experience the Sales and Marketing teams of any large company have the loosest restrictions on how they account for their spending.

Other dept;s like IT have to justify every penny, but Sales and Marketing not sooo much

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by nkozyra on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:27PM (#25627036)
I think there's a very loose belief that sales is how money is made, while they people that build and test products are pure expense.

I've seen it not just in the phenomenon you describe, but also in layoffs and restructurings.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by tsjq on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:30AM (#25628894)
Yes. Cost centre and profit centre.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by tsjq on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:29AM (#25628887)
Yes. Sales and marketing : "profit centers" . Ever increasing budgets.

Engineering , R&D, Manufacturing, Tech, Testing : "cost centers". Ever tightening budgets.

MBA, Beancouting 101

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by adwww on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:51AM (#25628989)
That's the issue - the CFO might care, but the staff actually delegated to spend the budget don't.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by garciasn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:00PM (#25624685)
I work in the field. Incrementality testing is a big part of marketing measurement at any reputable agency. Any claims to the contrary are FUD.

That said, companies like P&G, Airbnb, and Uber, which are oft-cited as examples of digital not being worth it, fail to understand their own brand recognition and organic power, built through prior marketing efforts, as key to their current standing.

Sure, TODAY, it doesn’t have the impact they’d like it to have but the investments PRIOR were key to ensuring their success.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by TeMPOraL on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:53PM (#25625598)
How do you determine a reputable agency though?

I worked next desk to people running a small ad agency. Because we shared office (and I found them an intern), I got a very good look at how they're working. What I've seen can be summarized as: people who have zero clue or interest in statistics writing "reports", with "graphs" they don't even understand beyond "pointing up = good", proving positive ROI to customers - who also have zero clue or interest in understanding the numbers in the report, and not enough visibility into the whole funnel to independently check attribution. Both the agency and the clients were engaging in a shared and completely unjustified fiction of positive advertising return - and as long as both sides were happy, the money kept flowing.

I've been long since suspecting a lot of advertising on-line looks like that. Every now and then, I see evidence in favor. Like that good ol' Optimizely debacle, where it turned out Optimizely was structurally optimized to help people make invalid A/B tests, that erred on the side of concluding the interventions were working[0]. And sure, big brands with some superstar ad teams probably do this right. But I think there's enough slack in most businesses that advertising spend can get quite far detached from actual ROI without anyone noticing (and with plenty of people happily riding the gravy train).

--

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10872359

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by johnrgrace on Sunday January 03, 2021 @06:24PM (#25626283)
Have you ever engaged with the large advertizing holding companies? They have teams of HIGHLY acomplished data scientists, boutique vendors for specific niches etc. Even if you don't pay for it there will be some people skilled at statistics looking at reports. If you pay for it, there will be data scientists doing analysis.

The large ad firms deliver a very good product but it usually isn't cheap.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by TeMPOraL on Sunday January 03, 2021 @06:33PM (#25626332)
I haven't, and I don't doubt that's true (at least in many cases; I've learned not to underestimate the chances of big companies ending up running scams either).

I've personally dealt mostly with the other end - the individuals and small agencies - and what I saw revealed total lack of necessary competences for the reports to be corresponding to reality. Perhaps it's understandable - after all, people who have the required knowledge likely end up working for big advertisers, or in entirely different fields. But small business owners don't pick these big advertising companies either.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by srtjstjsj on Sunday January 03, 2021 @11:31PM (#25627946)
It would be fascinating if true if the big "brand name" companies whose entire business is based on charging more for the same commodity product as a generic store brand, but using advertising to justify the higher price in the customers' mind, weren't buying ads from people doing the same thing to them...

The question isn't are the scientists good, the question is if the vendor is honest.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by baron_harkonnen on Monday January 04, 2021 @01:13AM (#25628337)
> Incrementality testing is a big part of marketing measurement at any reputable agency

In a huge number of cases these tests are run by people that don't have the statistical background to property run and understand these tests, in the remaining cases there is almost never follow through to ensure that the results of the test have persisted after the experiment.

People will say "oh this test shows 10% improvement, and this one does too! and this one! and this one!" But then you should see a nearly 50% improvement just because of ad spend and you almost never do. Nobody ever check that all the numbers add up, they just want the numbers that someone reported to feel like they are sound enough to hold up to scrutiny but scrutiny is never applied.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by quacked on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:53PM (#25625143)
Quit and do something that isn't fundamentally detrimental to everyone's quality of life.

http://jacek.zlydach.pl/blog/2019-07-31-ads-as-cancer.html

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by andrewjl on Sunday January 03, 2021 @06:27PM (#25626304)
> as key to their current standing.

It seems like it would be important to measure this standing and turn down spend once it is reached. I can see how there's a lack of incentive to help large advertising spenders understand this.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by dasil003 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:17PM (#25625328)
Brand is a lot more than marketing spend, and not all brands are equal. Google and Facebook have companies that depend primarily on performance marketing spend over a barrel.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by x0x0 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:43PM (#25625048)
Uber was just incredibly incompetent to not audit their ad spend at all.

I worked at an ad company. It was an absolutely standard metric to eg geo-fence ads out of a state or two for 3 months to demonstrate the impact of ads. This isn't easily externally visible, but tests like this are standard practice.

Particularly in the app install space, which is sketchy as hell once you stop buying from the top handful of vendors, buyers should be auditing by a couple million in annual spend. To get to $150m without looking hard at big chunks of their spend is just plain arrogance and/or incompetence.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by abhgh on Sunday January 03, 2021 @09:08PM (#25627250)
I partly work in this space, and I can confirm that geo-fencing over a time period is the probably the most transparent and convincing (to the client) way to do this. Essentially you mark out local regions (as small as zip codes or as large as states, or something else in this spectrum), and ensure that your advertisements only show within certain "fences". And then you compare old and new numbers within those fences.

The technical aspect aside, there are a lot of "soft" factors that help: regular communication of easily consumable numbers/graphs/metrics to the client, calling out inconsistencies, etc. In other words, this is far from a fire-and-forget exercise; this can be an intense monitoring and client-engagement exercise.

The regular client engagement sometimes helps you in pinpointing cause-effect in the observations too. For ex company X might decide to advertise less of product Y in a certain state Z because of new laws there. But the team you're interacting with might not be aware of this change, or might not be cognizant of its potential impact on an advt. campaign. Regular dialogue helps here since you might observe a change in sales trends, and bring it up in a meeting - and the client team might be able to then rationalize the change. This is healthy for both parties.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by nicbou on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:38PM (#25624444)
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by denton-scratch on Monday January 04, 2021 @06:20AM (#25629932)
"If you believed something different you wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting."

~Chomsky to Andrew Marr.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Kyro38 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:44PM (#25624514)
~ Upton Sinclair
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by fortran77 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:48PM (#25624554)
And, unlike most Internet Quotes, this one is apparently real!

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by dllthomas on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:38PM (#25624455)
> Why wouldn't someone jump at an opportunity to prove the thing/service they provide actually works, unless they were unsure about it themselves?

Because everyone is already acting like they know it works, so the only way that experiment can change things is in a way that's bad for the person in question. In that situation, they should (from a local, selfish perspective) be resisting even if they're awfully sure it does work (and perhaps even if they're right!).

Given that, I don't think the behavior has already given us an answer.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by disgruntledphd2 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:45PM (#25624528)
Facebook's ad research team have run a lot of experiments.

The goal was to demonstrate an impact of in-store sales from internet advertising. They did the first studies in about 2008-10, and have continued running these studies ever since.

They even built a tool so that advertisers can run these studies, and get a sense for the incremental impact of their ad.

Google have a similar (less full-featured) system.

Really, it's the rest of the ecosystem that has much of the fraud, and I think that a lot of people in the industry are aware of this.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Daho0n on Sunday January 03, 2021 @09:28PM (#25627380)
A system to advertise how good FB's ad system is, built by FB who we know have fudged their numbers before? That isn't proof of anything.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by pessimizer on Sunday January 03, 2021 @05:40PM (#25625919)
> The goal was to demonstrate an impact of in-store sales from internet advertising.

So the goal was to advertise advertising. A more scientific goal would be to see if there was an increase of in-store sales from internet advertising. Instead they were looking to design experiments that would show a positive effect, with the goal of giving advertisers a dashboard so they could run those experiments themselves.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by hertzrat on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:38PM (#25627099)
To let those advertisers do the experiments themselves, and to relate the campaign to in store sales, would require Facebook and google to share a ton lot of internet-user tracking data
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by webmaven on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:00PM (#25647590)
> To let those advertisers do the experiments themselves, and to relate the campaign to in store sales, would require Facebook and google to share a ton lot of internet-user tracking data

I think you are misinterpreting what "do the experiments themselves" implies.

Certainly there is a JOIN with Google's or FB's data, but it can still happen entirely in a hosted sandbox with no data sharing necessary.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by somedude895 on Monday January 04, 2021 @01:28PM (#25635728)
Of course they'd say that.

We've run Google's Local Campaigns, which are supposed to drive brick and mortar store visits, which they measure using GPS and "other signals". I checked with one of our most remote and least frequented stores, to see whether they could see any of the 100 daily visits that Google claimed to have generated, and they couldn't see a thing (avg daily visits were around 80 before during and after the campaign)

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by masonic on Monday January 04, 2021 @02:29AM (#25628618)
Heh. Just today, FB served me an ad claiming to be Macy's and talking about their closeout specials, accompanied by dozens of mourning comments. It was all phony.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by xapata on Sunday January 03, 2021 @11:05PM (#25627828)
The analysis is often performed by a different team, thus no conflict of interest.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Paradigma11 on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:15PM (#25641641)
And if the team doesn't get the desired result there will be a different team next time.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by xapata on Monday January 04, 2021 @11:45PM (#25642211)
Depends which team has the power. Sometimes it's the team auditing the results that's more respected.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by coliveira on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:48PM (#25624550)
Not really, scientists for example also have their whole careers based on the truth of some theories that they use. However, they're willing to put them to proof in different ways. The reason they do so is that they have a high degree of confidence that these theories are true. This cannot be said of people doing advertisement.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by ACow_Adonis on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:26PM (#25625403)
The reproduction crisis in sciences suggest the self- interest is pretty wide spread.

And the social stigma in science of being someone who tries to take down, discredit, or disprove your colleagues/superiors/ competitors theories is pretty substantial: IME there has historically almost been a taboo against attacking our speaking negatively about publications and your own sciences + faculties practices.

The saying of sciences advancing one funeral at a time doesn't exist because they're all such great skeptics and falsifiers, and current scientific practice is heavily biased towards positive findings and contains general publication biases.

indeed there's actually a LOT of common ground with advertising self-interest, since a lot of publication in science is effectively just advertising your brand...

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by ssss11 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:55PM (#25624625)
I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to say. Scientists’ whole careers are based on running hypotheses to prove or disprove their theories. That IS their career.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by mkr-hn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:50PM (#25625107)
And disproving a theory with lots of research backing it would be great. Imagine if someone found a huge hole in general relativity. There would be a boom in the grant writing industry.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by accountofme on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:34PM (#25627075)
Truth is relative. Sampling can skew results. Scientists are people too. We all have flaws.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by gspr on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:41AM (#25628941)
> Truth is relative.

This is a dangerous misconception to be spreading. It is not at all related to your other claims, namely:

> Sampling can skew results. Scientists are people too. We all have flaws.

These are of course correct statements. But they do not influence truth. They may well influence people's understanding of what the truth is, but that's different.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by hertzrat on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:40PM (#25627110)
If you really believe truth is relative, walk to the grocery store tomorrow without wearing clothes and convince yourself that it will be fine. Or run a lighter under your hand - maybe it won’t burn today? Of course you wouldn’t to those things though because, at the end of the day, we rely on truth for everything we do. We just don’t always know what it is. Relativism is not the same as “it’s hard to figure out because it’s so complex”
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kergonath on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:54PM (#25627186)
Are you implying that the probability of someone going to a store named and getting out of it without harm is zero? There’s plenty of photographic and video evidence of the contrary. Probably not the best example.

Same for a lighter, there are many factors involved, and playing with lighters that way was a party trick where I grew up.

We use truth as a concept every day as an approximation, but the universe is not bound to follow. Very unlikely things happen all the time.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kergonath on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:49PM (#25627163)
Truth is an unhelpful concept anyway (in science at least). What’s more useful is the likelihood to get a given result from a given experiment and the ability to make predictions.

And yes, when we put things that way it brings a lot of possible issues with sampling, processing, and measuring (and who’s doing the measuring). Some of these things would be harder to control for in a study of the effectiveness of advertising.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by hertzrat on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:32PM (#25627063)
> The people that would have the power to run this experiment have their entire careers depending on things staying as-is.

Any large company could invest in some experimentation, whether their marketing directors want it or not. It makes sense that at least a few do but just don’t publish the results

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by justapassenger on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:03PM (#25625224)
It’s like saying that no one who works on reliability of the systems is willing to run experiment to throw 100% errors for a month, because running experiment like that may show that reliability of the systems doesn’t matter.

And then using data from a one system that went down and nothing happened as a proof that systems reliability doesn’t matter at all, and it’s huge scam by engineers.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by jedberg on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:24PM (#25624327)
Exactly. That’s what the episode says too. The only people who could run the experiments hinge their entire career and industry on the results.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by ogre_codes on Sunday January 03, 2021 @10:12PM (#25627588)
> The unwillingness of anyone to run such an experiment is already an answer. Why wouldn't someone jump at an opportunity to prove the thing/service they provide actually works, unless they were unsure about it themselves?

Or they have run the experiment and the results haven't lines up with their own personal biases so they were discarded.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kumarvvr on Sunday January 03, 2021 @10:01PM (#25627535)
Yep. Like the old adage goes, You cant make a man understand something, if his job depends on him not understanding it.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by johnrgrace on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:42PM (#25625037)
The experments are run. Why don't you look at the work that comes out of the Advertizing research foundation.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by throwaway201103 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:16PM (#25625322)
> Why wouldn't someone jump at an opportunity to prove the thing/service they provide actually works, unless they were unsure about it themselves?

Because advertising in some form certainly works. If you can determine that approach "A" that everybody is doing is actually a waste of money but approach "B" is effective, then you can develop services around approach "B" and market them based on these findings.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Nextgrid on Sunday January 03, 2021 @06:27PM (#25626305)
Nobody is arguing that advertising doesn't work at all, but my argument (which I think a lot of other people agree with) is that the effectiveness of online advertising (and maybe advertising in general) is overblown.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by masonic on Monday January 04, 2021 @02:31AM (#25628623)
Advertising that does not actually reach the claimed consumer, by definition, cannot possibly work.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by seppin on Sunday January 03, 2021 @09:21PM (#25627328)
This is no industry with as much snake oil BS as adtech.

It also happens to be the sole form of revenue all of the largest tech firms enjoy.

No wonder there hasn't been a real audit.

Also, all those marketing execs buying all the ads would be out of a job too, so they aren't speak up either.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kevinmchugh on Monday January 04, 2021 @01:09AM (#25628324)
> It also happens to be the sole form of revenue all of the largest tech firms enjoy

I don't think this is true unless you qualify it a bit. Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, don't make most of their money on ads. Even Google has other revenue streams.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by seppin on Monday January 04, 2021 @01:21AM (#25628361)
> Even Google has other revenue streams.

How long do they survive in their current form relying solely on them?

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kevinmchugh on Monday January 04, 2021 @11:34AM (#25633638)
Days, probably, but that's not the point
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by seppin on Monday January 04, 2021 @04:12PM (#25638124)
It's exactly my point. Outside of Apple, all the biggest tech firms are 100% reliant on a form of income that is, at best, partially fraudulent. More realistically, almost entirely so.