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Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by dllthomas on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:38PM (#25624455)
> Why wouldn't someone jump at an opportunity to prove the thing/service they provide actually works, unless they were unsure about it themselves?

Because everyone is already acting like they know it works, so the only way that experiment can change things is in a way that's bad for the person in question. In that situation, they should (from a local, selfish perspective) be resisting even if they're awfully sure it does work (and perhaps even if they're right!).

Given that, I don't think the behavior has already given us an answer.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by disgruntledphd2 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:45PM (#25624528)
Facebook's ad research team have run a lot of experiments.

The goal was to demonstrate an impact of in-store sales from internet advertising. They did the first studies in about 2008-10, and have continued running these studies ever since.

They even built a tool so that advertisers can run these studies, and get a sense for the incremental impact of their ad.

Google have a similar (less full-featured) system.

Really, it's the rest of the ecosystem that has much of the fraud, and I think that a lot of people in the industry are aware of this.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Daho0n on Sunday January 03, 2021 @09:28PM (#25627380)
A system to advertise how good FB's ad system is, built by FB who we know have fudged their numbers before? That isn't proof of anything.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by pessimizer on Sunday January 03, 2021 @05:40PM (#25625919)
> The goal was to demonstrate an impact of in-store sales from internet advertising.

So the goal was to advertise advertising. A more scientific goal would be to see if there was an increase of in-store sales from internet advertising. Instead they were looking to design experiments that would show a positive effect, with the goal of giving advertisers a dashboard so they could run those experiments themselves.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by hertzrat on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:38PM (#25627099)
To let those advertisers do the experiments themselves, and to relate the campaign to in store sales, would require Facebook and google to share a ton lot of internet-user tracking data
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by webmaven on Tuesday January 05, 2021 @12:00PM (#25647590)
> To let those advertisers do the experiments themselves, and to relate the campaign to in store sales, would require Facebook and google to share a ton lot of internet-user tracking data

I think you are misinterpreting what "do the experiments themselves" implies.

Certainly there is a JOIN with Google's or FB's data, but it can still happen entirely in a hosted sandbox with no data sharing necessary.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by somedude895 on Monday January 04, 2021 @01:28PM (#25635728)
Of course they'd say that.

We've run Google's Local Campaigns, which are supposed to drive brick and mortar store visits, which they measure using GPS and "other signals". I checked with one of our most remote and least frequented stores, to see whether they could see any of the 100 daily visits that Google claimed to have generated, and they couldn't see a thing (avg daily visits were around 80 before during and after the campaign)

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by masonic on Monday January 04, 2021 @02:29AM (#25628618)
Heh. Just today, FB served me an ad claiming to be Macy's and talking about their closeout specials, accompanied by dozens of mourning comments. It was all phony.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by xapata on Sunday January 03, 2021 @11:05PM (#25627828)
The analysis is often performed by a different team, thus no conflict of interest.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by Paradigma11 on Monday January 04, 2021 @10:15PM (#25641641)
And if the team doesn't get the desired result there will be a different team next time.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by xapata on Monday January 04, 2021 @11:45PM (#25642211)
Depends which team has the power. Sometimes it's the team auditing the results that's more respected.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by coliveira on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:48PM (#25624550)
Not really, scientists for example also have their whole careers based on the truth of some theories that they use. However, they're willing to put them to proof in different ways. The reason they do so is that they have a high degree of confidence that these theories are true. This cannot be said of people doing advertisement.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by ACow_Adonis on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:26PM (#25625403)
The reproduction crisis in sciences suggest the self- interest is pretty wide spread.

And the social stigma in science of being someone who tries to take down, discredit, or disprove your colleagues/superiors/ competitors theories is pretty substantial: IME there has historically almost been a taboo against attacking our speaking negatively about publications and your own sciences + faculties practices.

The saying of sciences advancing one funeral at a time doesn't exist because they're all such great skeptics and falsifiers, and current scientific practice is heavily biased towards positive findings and contains general publication biases.

indeed there's actually a LOT of common ground with advertising self-interest, since a lot of publication in science is effectively just advertising your brand...

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by ssss11 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @02:55PM (#25624625)
I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to say. Scientists’ whole careers are based on running hypotheses to prove or disprove their theories. That IS their career.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by mkr-hn on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:50PM (#25625107)
And disproving a theory with lots of research backing it would be great. Imagine if someone found a huge hole in general relativity. There would be a boom in the grant writing industry.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by accountofme on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:34PM (#25627075)
Truth is relative. Sampling can skew results. Scientists are people too. We all have flaws.
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by gspr on Monday January 04, 2021 @03:41AM (#25628941)
> Truth is relative.

This is a dangerous misconception to be spreading. It is not at all related to your other claims, namely:

> Sampling can skew results. Scientists are people too. We all have flaws.

These are of course correct statements. But they do not influence truth. They may well influence people's understanding of what the truth is, but that's different.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by hertzrat on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:40PM (#25627110)
If you really believe truth is relative, walk to the grocery store tomorrow without wearing clothes and convince yourself that it will be fine. Or run a lighter under your hand - maybe it won’t burn today? Of course you wouldn’t to those things though because, at the end of the day, we rely on truth for everything we do. We just don’t always know what it is. Relativism is not the same as “it’s hard to figure out because it’s so complex”
Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kergonath on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:54PM (#25627186)
Are you implying that the probability of someone going to a store named and getting out of it without harm is zero? There’s plenty of photographic and video evidence of the contrary. Probably not the best example.

Same for a lighter, there are many factors involved, and playing with lighters that way was a party trick where I grew up.

We use truth as a concept every day as an approximation, but the universe is not bound to follow. Very unlikely things happen all the time.

Re:Uber discovered they’d been defrauded out of 2/3 of their... by kergonath on Sunday January 03, 2021 @08:49PM (#25627163)
Truth is an unhelpful concept anyway (in science at least). What’s more useful is the likelihood to get a given result from a given experiment and the ability to make predictions.

And yes, when we put things that way it brings a lot of possible issues with sampling, processing, and measuring (and who’s doing the measuring). Some of these things would be harder to control for in a study of the effectiveness of advertising.