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Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by minimaxir on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:40PM (#25363447)
Key line:

> The FTC is seeking a permanent injunction in federal court that could, among other things: require divestitures of assets, including Instagram and WhatsApp

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by mmastrac on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:52PM (#25363671)
Splitting those two properties off would be fantastic.

I know it's a pipe dream, but an independent Oculus would make me so happy. I suspect this is impossible due to the early nature of the VR market. Maybe just an FTC requirement _not_ to require a FB login?

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by gamblor956 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:56PM (#25363753)
Unfortunately, after skimming through the PDF of the complaint (https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/1910134fbco...), it appears the FTC is not seeking that remedy.

It appears VR is still too small of a market for them to care about.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by vosper on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:49PM (#25364712)
Also, Facebook doesn't have a monopoly on VR - there are several competitors in the market, like HTC and Valve.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by bogwog on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:00PM (#25365866)
Yeah, and that might be because Valve is too expensive for them to buy.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by spdionis on Thursday December 10, 2020 @02:24AM (#25370852)
Valce is also probably not for sale.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by ascagnel_ on Thursday December 10, 2020 @10:15AM (#25374508)
There's also a bunch of social features embedded in the Steam client; I wouldn't be surprised if regulators took exception to any acquisition by another company with a social network.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by jcfrei on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:52PM (#25364743)
Seems a bit short-sighted because if Oculus becomes the dominant VR platform that Facebook envisions it to be then it's going to dwarf instagram in terms of economic importance (for advertisers and users) over the long term.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by freehunter on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:02PM (#25364924)
That's a big if, one that hinges on way too many things to be able to successfully argue in court about:

1) VR ever becoming a huge player. It might. It might not. Right now there's no real evidence that VR will actually become a big deal, and Facebook could argue that this is a niche offering that can't be anti-competitive because there's no real market yet.

2) The feasibility of VR technology independent of major vendors. There's a strong possibility that without a huge R&D budget VR will never overcome the hurdles that might keep it out of the mainstream. Facebook could argue that removing Oculus would doom VR to failure in the market.

3) The Sirus/XM merger removed 100% of satellite radio competition (there's only one vendor left after the merger), but both Sirius and XM successfully argued that the market isn't big enough to support multiple vendors. Facebook could argue a similar case, that for the health of the VR market there should be fewer competitors.

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know if any of those would be winning arguments, but based on previous anti-trust cases I've followed that would be the strategy I would expect. And it might be why the FTC didn't go down that path.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by paxys on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:56PM (#25364796)
The flip side of it is that VR isn't mature enough for a company like Oculus to succeed independently. Having the resources of Facebook behind it will help the VR market as a whole (for now).
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by kossae on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:59PM (#25364872)
I think the FTC will deal with that as it comes. Including that in this case would be speculating the future of the Oculus business.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by SerLava on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:58PM (#25363785)
Ugh, yeah Facebook probably bought Oculus thinking:

-What if a lot of people use these in the future

-What if they're really comfy when they get slim, and people use them all the time, even for essentially web browsing.

-Later models can easily have internal and mouth facing cameras so you can smile at people in VR

-Let's intimately observe the finest twitch of every expression felt by our users, peering deep into their minds, learning more about how to manipulate and destroy humans than anyone ever thought possible.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by retromario on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:47PM (#25364658)
Their thinking is pretty much all laid out in the 2015 Zuckerberg memo on VR/AR: https://twitter.com/lucasmtny/status/1095861887588229120?s=2...
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by shostack on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:31PM (#25365403)
Ava the Oculus Connect 6 keynote video on YouTube.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by dane-pgp on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:21PM (#25364210)
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a VR headset worn on a human face - forever."

(Apologies to George Orwell.)

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by Applejinx on Thursday December 10, 2020 @10:03AM (#25374368)
Damn straight. The prospect of how much you can learn about human reactions is INCREDIBLE. Eye and mouth tracking is everything, here: it would be turning a wide variety of human behavior study into Big Data and straightforward machine learning.

What would you do with it? What wouldn't you do with it?

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by SerLava on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:17PM (#25364129)
I'm getting down votes here, does anyone really think Facebook wouldn't do this?
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by annadane on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:24PM (#25364258)
You're getting downvotes from apologists and shills
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by justapassenger on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:16PM (#25364120)
> I know it's a pipe dream, but an independent Oculus would make me so happy

While that would cool for short-term, independent Oculus can stagnate. VR still needs many more billions to be truly usable, and I don't think independent company will be able to fund it.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by djrogers on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:33PM (#25364428)
> independent Oculus can stagnate

My experience has been that technology is far more likely to stagnate at BigCo than SmallCo - especially if SmallCo's only source of revenue is said technology.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by KaiserPro on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:13PM (#25365085)
FB are pouring billions into oculus. They intend to operate it at a loss for a good 5 more years.

Only when AR is a thing will they stat to push for profitability.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by systemvoltage on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:44PM (#25366378)
I think this is the problem. Operating at a loss while wiping out players without deep pockets to run at a loss.

This should be illegal. Amazon and Uber have wiped out small players.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by WillPostForFood on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:58PM (#25368030)
If they are dumping billions into manufacturing, and selling at a loss, maybe that's a problem. If they are dumping billions in to R&D and improving the tech, then let them do it.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by justapassenger on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:07PM (#25369571)
That would make all new business illegal, as you operate at a loss for multiple years.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by systemvoltage on Thursday December 10, 2020 @12:26AM (#25370110)
At some point it needs to be illegal. When a large company of 30000 employees starts wiping out entire industries with cash buffers, you can see why this is just wrong and monopolistic/oligopolistic behavior.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by KaiserPro on Thursday December 10, 2020 @02:53AM (#25371031)
The problem with this is that would make virtually all of silicon valley start ups illegal.

In terms of loss, the actual hardware is profitable as far as I've heard.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by disgruntledphd2 on Thursday December 10, 2020 @04:39AM (#25371741)
There's a large difference between using your profits to crush competition in another area, versus setting dollar bills on fire in the pursuit of growth.

There should be regulations around both of these, but they'll need to be different ones.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by tekknik on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:30PM (#25367760)
I agree that this maybe should be illegal, but on the flip what is forcing the other companies to operate at a loss? I would think the name “Facebook” backing oculus means more than a low price
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by thebigman433 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:38PM (#25364512)
I think down the line that would be true, but Facebook's willingness to burn literal billions of dollars at this point is basically the only thing carrying VR. Id love to see it split off in the future though.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by Barrin92 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:55PM (#25364787)
I'm not sure big money is what is needed to create a flourishing VR sector. The appeal of VR has always been creating virtual experiences that are different and unique. honestly I think it makes much more sense for that scene to be decentralised and independent. Kind of like Minecraft came about, I have trouble imagining it as some sort big money project.

I don't think the issue with VR at this point is so much technical than it is that nobody's yet been creative enough to make something truly unique with it.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by arxpoetica on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:14PM (#25365110)
Agree. VR is not more than a novelty and gaming tool yet. Gaming is a huge potential, but I think the real use cases haven't been proven out yet.

I'm still a believer, but I suspect there are other non-VR technologies that either need to catch up or just figure out how to dovetail for VR to be anything other than a novelty.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by jfb on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:09PM (#25363998)
Oculus doesn't present a monopoly concern in advertising, though.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by sharkweek on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:12PM (#25364063)
Just wait until you slip into the Oculus 5 and enjoy a movie night with your friends anywhere in the world!

Oh what’s that? Your eyes looked at the logo on the shirt the hero is wearing, are you perhaps interested in learning more about where you could buy it?

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by csunbird on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:46PM (#25364644)
Or, if the Oculus becomes the most popular VR equipment, think about the advertising can be shown to people in VR Chat rooms, VR films, virtual cinemas..... all bound to a single company.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by tempsy on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:57PM (#25363763)
Pretty sure the focus is on Instagram and Whatsapp only, not Oculus.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by rolph on Thursday December 10, 2020 @05:04PM (#25379384)
considering some of the things that facebook has been used for it should be very careful about what it does with VR/AR and the potential for use as a HUD facilitating an attacker and providing them with a support team
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by Erik816 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:05PM (#25363919)
If only there were some kind of federal agency, maybe a "trade commission" that could have blocked these mergers when they originally happened ....
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by ergocoder on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:17PM (#25365151)
When they originally happened, people thought Zuck was insane.

Instagram for $1B? WhatsApp for $17B? Really?

FTC definitely isn't competent enough to understand how visionary the acquisition was.

To be fair, not many was that competent. Otherwise, Google and other cash-loaded companies would have acquired these companies with higher offer.

It could have easily been Twitter + Vines + Periscope where the acquired products went nowhere.

It's unfair to Zuck for being very visionary about this. But antitrust isn't about being fair to an individual company...

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by aylmao on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:08PM (#25368149)
> It's unfair to Zuck for being very visionary about this.

I personally disagree with the idea that Zuck was being a "visionary" here. I don't think buying Instagram for $1bn was a particularly visionary move but rather just... cautious. Facebook also bought Gowalla, Lightbox.com, Friendly, TBH and tried to buy Snapchat, Musically (since merged into TikTok), Houseparty, etc. All these are/were competitors and threats. Some were small, some were big. Some worked out and grew, others didn't.

The Instagram acquisition happened fairly early on, so it makes sense that it was worth a lot of money to Facebook. Now that Facebook is huge it can get turned down by a company like Snapchat, and it'll just go ahead and copy/improve its features with its much-larger team, capital, and user-base. Back then, buying the competitor was the best option since Facebook didn't have as many resources or reasons to believe they could compete as effectively.

Moreover, I'd argue the reason Instagram worked out so well is precisely because it got acquired by Facebook. Had Instagram had to figure out its own monetization strategy, find its own clients, compete with the established players, build its own infrastructure, etc. it probably wouldn't have been able to grow as much or as quickly.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by thraway12 on Thursday December 10, 2020 @02:22AM (#25370833)
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by majani on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:47PM (#25365680)
To be fair, that Whatsapp deal still looks insane. Still no meaningful revenue coming from that end 8 years later
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by will_pseudonym on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:35PM (#25369349)
Except the revenue that they potentially would have been losing out on had they not acquired their competitor.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by ergocoder on Thursday December 10, 2020 @01:14AM (#25370399)
Nobody really knows how much that would be.

But everyone will make up a number to support whatever side of the argument they are on.

In any case, Whatsapp as a standalone company would definitely go bankrupt. The infra cost would be insane with such little revenue.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by madeofpalk on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:31PM (#25365411)
> When they originally happened, people thought Zuck was insane.

Maybe that's a sign that the acquisitions deserved more scrutiny?

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by JxLS-cpgbe0 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:22PM (#25364215)
The FTC allowed the IG merger because

* No ads (lol)

* Competition from Google even if it did have ads

* FB had no competitive photo app

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by WillPostForFood on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:03PM (#25368090)
Thanks Obama.

But seriously, by what rationale would you block the purchase in 2012? Instagram only had 25 million users at the time.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by maxerickson on Thursday December 10, 2020 @08:52AM (#25373664)
You don't just look at Instagram when you evaluate the acquisition, you look at Facebook also.

Facebook was huge, and Instagram didn't represent anything Facebook couldn't just build themselves, other than the growing user base. So there is your rationale, the behemoth shouldn't be completely free to consolidate users. Of course the details of how big is too big and so on are the hard part.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by Igelau on Thursday December 10, 2020 @08:46AM (#25373604)
I think that's the point. If it wasn't anticompetitive then, why is it now?
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by codetrotter on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:52PM (#25363672)
From a privacy point of view I agree that it sounds like a good thing and I hope it happens.

From an entrepreneurial point of view I wonder how it will affect the future of big tech players acquiring other companies.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by vmception on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:04PM (#25363901)
> From an entrepreneurial point of view I wonder how it will affect the future of big tech players acquiring other companies.

It won't.

The full power of the United States does not reverse all those shares you sold to a big tech company, or sold as a big shareholder of a big tech company.

If the market tolerates a price, based on their own exuberance and view of future revenues, that is fine here, and the incentives will continue to promote near term profits with a who-gives-a-shit slim possibility of cleanup by the regulators.

Corporations are just a conduit for money, and the regulators only enforce actions on the conduit, and thats a maybe.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by lowdose on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:02PM (#25363864)
It should be forbidden after IPO to acquire other companies because of this kills competition before it has the chance to compete.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by ggreer on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @09:06PM (#25368685)
Then no companies would IPO.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by sneak on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:55PM (#25363728)
From a privacy point of view it doesn't matter who collects it so long as the FBI and US military can retrieve it on-demand without a warrant or probable cause under FAA 702.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by yur3i__ on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:54PM (#25364766)
I disagree with this. Privately owned threats are still a big deal, even if government threats also exist.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by zamalek on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:50PM (#25363649)
Oh that's awesome. I haven't been able to pry my family away from those two, even though they openly admit that Facebook is evil/sucks.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by wlesieutre on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:25PM (#25364289)
Oculus too please!

I'm holding off on merging my Oculus and Facebook accounts as long as possible in hopes that someone tells them to get the hell out of here with that nonsense.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by claudeganon on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:04PM (#25363916)
Will splitting off Instagram make a meaningful difference given how little protections there are around selling advertising data?

I agree we would’ve been better off if they had never been allowed to buy Instagram AND we had meaningful laws in place, but I don’t see how this fundamentally changes things given where we are now.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by SerLava on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:54PM (#25363720)
Huge. I'm glad Zuckerberg is probably panicking.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by samfisher83 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:55PM (#25363745)
Even if they were three separate companies wouldn't Mark still have voting control of all three companies?
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by tarboreus on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:11PM (#25364040)
I think divestiture would mean a full spin-off to an independent entity.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by CPLX on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:04PM (#25363897)
Generally no, he couldn't do that, as that would be the opposite of the concept of divestment.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by SerLava on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:00PM (#25363824)
I don't think so? Can anyone answer this definitively?
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by dsr_ on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:10PM (#25364018)
The FTC could, potentially, require:

1. That FB split into N independent companies, whereupon each share of FB would become 1 share in each of N companies.

2. That the supermajor shareholders (say, more than 10% of any company) each pick at most one company to retain that interest in, and sell off shares in the other companies until they had less than 10% of each of those).

3. That the new companies avoid overlapping directors.

It would be a long time in court. See the breakup of AT&T.

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:21PM (#25364208)
And then it would eventually come back together. See ATT.

https://money.cnn.com/infographic/technology/att-merger-hist...

Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by mrkramer on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:36PM (#25364471)
"And then it would eventually come back together." That would be hilarious.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by katbyte on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:37PM (#25364490)
But are there not multiple phone companies now instead of just one?
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by samfisher83 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:35PM (#25365488)
They have all pretty much merged back into AT&T or Verizon. Those two companies together would be the original MA Bell.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:43PM (#25365612)
And Centurylink.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by aylmao on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:10PM (#25368173)
Duopolies are bad, but I'd say still better than monopolies.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:20PM (#25365214)
Yes, it was just a possibly funny observation that most of the entities created from the monopoly ended up back in an entity called ATT.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by lovecg on Thursday December 10, 2020 @12:18PM (#25375901)
Reminds me of Terminator 2.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by oblio on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:41PM (#25365585)
Even better, Standard Oil.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:01PM (#25363842)
Is this not itself an antitrust issue? If so, why?
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by lkxijlewlf on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:00PM (#25363832)
I am unclear why he would be panicking.
Re:FTC Sues Facebook for Illegal Monopolization by desas on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:26PM (#25364315)
Best case: there's a lot of legal kerfuffle and he is a multi-billionaire

Worst case: there's a lot of legal kerfuffle and he is a multi-billionaire