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Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by nus07 on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:44PM (#25338001)
I agree on almost all of your points with a few caveats. - Cars : The Bay Area is very walkable but that’s mainly SF. The tech burbs of Palo Alto , Menlo Park are not super walkable and you are relying on the BART and other public transport . But Covid has destroyed public transport and cuts in funding threaten them further.

LGBT : This is not really the 80s and 90s . Most big cities from DC, Atlanta, Austin ,Chicago, Phoenix, Miami have strong LGBT presence . And a lot of racial heterogeneity there too.

Art and Culture: Almost all artists that I met in Austin, Chicago , Miami , Portland , Asheville left the Bay Area . They were priced out by tech . Everything is tech in the Bay Area . Even artists have to align or suck up to tech .

High quality food: Yes, again a lot of other cities are replicating that.

The Bay Area is truly great and very beautiful . But I cannot constantly hustle at 45 while raising 2 kids , pay a million dollars for a shack . I am sort of tired of constantly competing and hustling . I am tired of being told that we are counter culture since we are not Wall Street bro’s but I need a million dollars for a 1950s 2 bedroom house .

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by dcolkitt on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:50PM (#25341074)
> The Bay Area is very walkable but that’s mainly SF. The tech burbs of Palo Alto , Menlo Park are not super walkable and you are relying on the BART and other public transport .

Even SF is not very walkable compared to Chicago, DC, Philly, Boston, etc. (All significantly cheaper than SF.) Even by American standards, the BART is a pretty second-rate metro. (And that's not even counting the fact that nowadays it's essentially unsafe at night, for single women, etc.)

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by xvedejas on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @02:07AM (#25342702)
To push back a bit: SF proper must have the best bus system of any city in the US. It's possible to get pretty much anywhere in a reasonable amount of time, even late at night, with just a quick bus ride or two. I won't say MUNI is perfect but it's doing a lot of things right. Anyone who thinks BART is synonymous with SF's inner city transportation is really not making their way around the city by transit.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by physicsguy on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @02:42AM (#25342908)
I don’t live in the US but have been to a few US cities for work. San Diego was horrendous without a car. DC was very good, even though when I travelled there had been heavy snow.

I’ve been to SF twice in the last three years. My impression of SF’s public transport (and to be honest, walking around parts of it too) was that I did not feel very safe using the MUNI buses, especially at night. I saw on the news that a British guy got stabbed near my hotel a week after I left the first time.

On one occasion I also witnessed a bus driver drive past a guy in a wheelchair in the middle of the day. Someone on the bus challenged them on that and I vividly remember that she said “I ain’t lettin no cripple pee pee all over my bus.”

The BART was much better but obviously is more limited in where it goes.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by Apocryphon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @04:21PM (#25351514)
On the other hand, MUNI is incredibly overcrowded along certain lines now, and conditions on the buses are often filthy (though perhaps that's common in all dense large U.S. cities).
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by ghaff on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:25PM (#25338551)
And SF wrt cars only to some degree. I know a couple who decamped to SF and sold their cars when their kids got older. They do indeed live without owning cars. They also use Ubers, ZipCars, and regular rental all the time.

I think a lot depends on what you're used to. I think a lot of folks accept the limited mobility they knew through school when they graduate. It becomes less acceptable as they get older. Many exceptions of course.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by reddog on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:38PM (#25339325)
>They do indeed live without owning cars. They also use Ubers, ZipCars, and regular rental all the time.

Is there that much of a difference between owning a car and renting a car or using Zip or having a chauffer (Lyft, Uber, taxis) tote you around? I'd get rid of my car too if I could afford to have Uber haul me everywhere.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by chao- on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:44PM (#25339367)
>Is there that much of a difference between owning a car...? I'd get rid of my car too if I could afford to have Uber haul me everywhere.

With reference to my sibling comment, definitively yes. I personally spent less on a handful of Lyft rides per month in Houston than I did on insurance alone when I owned a car. Never mind the cost of the vehicle itself, gas, any repairs...

Even adding in the cost of my rail and bus rides, still doesn't come close to the cost of a vehicle.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by fomine3 on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:11PM (#25340792)
But SF is one of the most expensive living cost, so I suspect that spending for cars isn't much issue.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by joshuamorton on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:44AM (#25342583)
Before I sold my car, I spent more on parking (in my apartment) than I did in an average month if ride-sharing.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by moonka on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:34PM (#25340974)
>Is there that much of a difference between owning a car and renting a car or using Zip or having a chauffer (Lyft, Uber, taxis) tote you around? I'd get rid of my car too if I could afford to have Uber haul me everywhere.

It's a difference in frequency of use. In Seattle, a lot of my friends don't have cars, but use Rideshare/rentals when they need it. If you are using it a couple times a week, pretty easy to stay under the cost of car ownership when you factor in insurance/parking/maintenance etc.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by twblalock on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:48PM (#25339411)
Parking in SF tends to really suck, and at least if you take an Uber you don't need to circle the neighborhood for half an hour to find a spot.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by mistersquid on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:30PM (#25340940)
> Is there that much of a difference between owning a car and renting a car or using Zip

The cost of owning a car in California including maintenance, fuel, parking, registration, smog check, etc. can be upwards of $10K per year. At least it was for me when I owned a car.

I walk most places and use car share or rent as necessary. I do not spend $10K per year on car share and rentals.

Literally, YMMV.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by ghaff on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:42PM (#25339352)
I guess it still works out for them. They also rent their parking space to someone else. And he rides a bike, etc. And they use public transit. But, yeah, it's dependent on having a number of car options also available.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by rightbyte on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:44PM (#25339374)
And use home delivery! You outsourced the car dependency to poor gig workers.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by chao- on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:27PM (#25339205)
You can make a lot of things work in a lot of places. I have lived in both Dallas and Houston without a car, for example (but also Berlin, Santiago, Tokyo, so I have comparison points). If you don't have kids, and have the freedom to plan a bit around where you live and work, you won't really feel like you're missing anything. I would take a trip via Lyft twice a month to some venue that's further away than the bike/rail/bus combo could get me, but that's about all.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by ghaff on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:45PM (#25339379)
TBH though, I'm mostly not interested in "making things work" if I have more convenient options. At one point, I spent a lot of time in Houston and I absolutely needed a car--for my job if nothing else. But even living in New Orleans at that time I absolutely needed a car for my job.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by sutterbomb on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:50AM (#25342330)
What’s a good neighborhood or two in Houston where it’s possible to do this?
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by chao- on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @02:57AM (#25342991)
The easiest in terms of pure transit is the corridor in Midtown along the Red Line. From about Alabama up to Downtown. Second is Montrose which for some people will have a cooler vibe.

Within Midtown, the further North you go, there are a few more bars/clubs that make noise at night, so either live further South, live a few blocks East or West of the rail, or both. Huge amounts of apartment stock just came online in the last 3 years there, so you might get a solid rent deal somewhere? For me personally, being able to walk to a grocery store is always key anywhere in the world: shop every 2-3 days on the way home from work, only buy what I need, less waste. That area has two grocery stores: Randall's and Whole Foods.

Montrose is the other top spot. For me it is the #1 example of how Houston's lack of zoning can shine (versus other areas where it is a detriment). Fantastic local retail interspersed among every-other residential block. Montrose is a large-ish area and every half mile can be a slightly different "feel", but there are great options to rent newer apartments, older apartments, or rent spacious, cheap, historical houses close to things like Menil Park, or the big restaurant scene along Westheimer. Sadly the Kroger at Hawthorne is closing, but the huge HEB is dead-center of Montrose. East a bit and you're near Trader Joe's. If you're anywhere along Westheimer, the 82 bus goes to to Midtown Whole Foods and if you're along West Gray the 32 bus goes to the Kroger near River Oaks. The whole area always has things happening (check the pinboards at Inversion or Black Hole), and is next door to Midtown for even more.

If Downtown would get a larger grocery store with slightly more affordable staples (no offense to Phoenecia), and have it close-ish to where the rail lines meet, the entirety of Downtown would immediately become more viable (imo). I have friends both in Downtown, and in the Heights (solid bike culture there), but they eat out more than I do. The Heights started getting expensive ten years ago and doesn't look to stop, but it's still an option.

In about 5 years I think the Greater East End will be another great walkable/bikeable region (the actual East End, not EaDo), so depending where along the gentrification curve you prefer to live (before, during, after) it might be worth checking out now.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by sutterbomb on Sunday December 13, 2020 @06:29PM (#25411560)
Thanks so much, appreciate it
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by throwaway201103 on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:49PM (#25338072)
Can't speak for other cities, and maybe not even Chicago today, but when I lived there, there was a lot of diversity in the loop (the downtown business district) during the workday, but beyond that it was a very segregated city.

Also, though I did own a car, I really only used it on weekend trips out of town. If I had stayed long-term, I would have sold it, because it's expensive to own one there (parking is expensive unless you want to gamble on finding a spot on the street, and there are extra city taxes on gas and registration). Chicago is pretty walkable and has usable mass transit.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by rayiner on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:47PM (#25338768)
Most big cities are segregated, both economically and racially—and the economic segregation amplifies the racial segregation.

The exodus of middle class Black and Hispanic people from high cost urban areas drives some crazy income distributions in places like San Francisco: https://statisticalatlas.com/place/California/San-Francisco/.... If your apartment building, restaurants, etc., are places mainly populated by those making over $100k/year, there will be a vanishingly small number of Black people in those places. (See table 10). Contrast somewhere like Atlanta, where a third of households making $75-100k/year (a very comfortable income in that city) are Black.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by skrtskrt on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:12PM (#25338367)
Chicago is pretty segregated, but the transit situation is easily the best of any major US city. A car helps you get places quicker, but an adventurous person can get all over the city easily on the buses and trains and any given neighborhood is very walkable.

The main issue is the cold. You have 3 months of amazing summer and 8 months of cold with two weeks of spring and fall on either end. If you're not from the Midwest, it can really wear on you and bring you down.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:46PM (#25338762)
Cold is fine.

Getting robbed at gunpoint isn't. That's the real Chicago you have to contend with.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by pchristensen on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:36PM (#25339877)
Crime-wise (and on many quality of life issues), Chicago is like 3 cities in one: - a rich, extremely safe city (broadly, greater Loop and north/northwest sides) - a poor, unsafe city (south and west sides) - a middle income, very average city (the more suburban, far northwest, south, and southwest area)

Your experience will vary greatly, depending on which areas you visit.

It also has more than triple the population of SF, or twice as many people as SF+Oakland combined, so any absolute (as opposed to per-capita) numbers aren't comparable.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by stephencanon on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:21PM (#25339147)
Only place I’ve been robbed is SF (Tenderloin, 2002). Only place I’ve had my car broken into is SFBA (Berkeley 2008, San Jose and SF in 2018).
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:17PM (#25339675)
And Chicago has nearly 6x as many violent crimes per year as Oakland or San Francisco and still edges them out on property crime.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by a_t48 on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:24PM (#25341362)
Is that per captia?
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:08PM (#25348083)
Chicago is less than 6x bigger than San Francisco or Oakland.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by stephencanon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:34PM (#25348548)
SF, yes (“only” 3x bigger), but Chicago is more than 6x the population of Oakland.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by a_t48 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @03:16PM (#25350754)
I'm just asking for accurate statistics.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by baja_blast on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:40AM (#25346635)
As someone how has lived in both cities, I can say I felt unsafe way more often in SF than Chicago. Chicago's crime is gang related and isolated to a part of the city kind of disconnected from the main hub. But in SF the craziness is in the nice areas, I have had to deal with way too many violent mentally unstable people there, in fact I remember one of the two years I lived there a British woman randomly got a kitchen knife jabbed through her skull. In SF you're dealing with a large number of seriously mentally ill going to and from work.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:04PM (#25348039)
As someone who has lived in several of the places topping the crime charts in the US, I want to tell you that this comment stinks of privilege.

In Chicago you were able to afford to live somewhere isolated from the reality of most Chicagoans.

In San Francisco you have so thoroughly priced everyone out that there isn't anywhere for the lower classes to go and so the bullshit is everywhere for everyone to deal with. Boo hoo.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by ketamine__ on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:10PM (#25339023)
Never happened to me or my friends. And apparently there's less poop on the sidewalks than SF.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by rightbyte on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:47PM (#25339395)
I don't know anyone that died of Covid. I wash my hands and are not walking around in Chicago.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by ketamine__ on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:02AM (#25345164)
I have no plans to live in fear and plan to walk around downtown Chicago in the future.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:12PM (#25339645)
Happened to a friend across the street from University of Chicago 2 weeks ago.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by whoisburbansky on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:48PM (#25338059)
Agree on all counts, just putting Seattle out there as another city with a strong LGBT presence.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by throwaway6734 on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:38PM (#25338676)
Is there a general belief that San Francisco is a counter cultural place?
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by compiler-guy on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:52PM (#25340640)
At one time, San Francisco was very bohemian and very counter cultural. The Electric KoolAid Acid Test has its genesis in San Francisco. As do the Grateful Dead, the summer of love, and many other parts.

You can still find many vestiges of this, like all the head shops and very non mainstream things in the Haight Ashbury, but the reality is that it is far less of a counter-cultural mecca today than it was fifty, or even twenty, years ago.

The reputation is taking a long time to catch up to that reality though.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:44PM (#25338744)
Only by some San Franciscans who've been sniffing their own farts for too long.

Everyone else thinks that The Bay is culturually homogenous.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by treeman79 on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:25PM (#25339756)
It’s pretty dangerous to go against the culture these days. I’ve been singled out for trying to stay out of PC culture. Backed into a coroner of either actively agree with everything PC or “consequences”.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by AnimalMuppet on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:30PM (#25339813)
"Backed into a coroner" is, I presume, a typo, but it does very well at communicating the sense of danger...
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by gamechangr on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @05:07PM (#25352045)
I thought it wss a play on words for sure
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by busterarm on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:31PM (#25340951)
It's okay, most of them don't walk the walk. They're all about it right up to the point that you suggest that poor people deserve decent jobs with a decent commute. Then they go straight to frothing at the mouth and incoherent shouting.

What I'm saying is turn it around on them.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by bosswipe on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:23PM (#25339744)
If I said something bad about "red necks" or other such subcultures people would get angry and indignant. But somehow it's become OK to make disparaging comments like that about San Franciscans.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by 0x2d123 on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:41PM (#25339931)
Rednecks and San Franciscans aren't protected classes of people.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by bosswipe on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:51PM (#25341082)
Huh? I wasn't talking about legal stuff.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by 0x2d123 on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:28PM (#25341385)
It matters. People won't make fun of protected classes because they might be cancelled and possibly even land in jail some day if some people get their way with our laws. Anything not against the law or against the cultural norms is free game for making fun of.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by bart_spoon on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:19PM (#25348280)
As someone living in the Midwest, I assure you that we do get slandered far more often than San Franciscans and no one bats an eye.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by bosswipe on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @03:27PM (#25350870)
Huh, I don't think I've ever heard any bad midwestern stereotypes.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by asdff on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:04AM (#25342396)
It was when half the set list for woodstock lived in Haight Ashbury.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by mattcaldwell on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:58PM (#25338903)
Even smaller towns, like Asheville (where I am now), have a huge LGBTQIA+ presence. I moved from DC, which was pretty gay, and I feel like it's even more super gay here.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by legerdemain on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:28PM (#25339213)
Presence, sure. What about legal protections around seemingly trivial daily things like bathroom use? Family planning services focusing on the needs of LGBT families? Doctors who have experience with LGBT patients, whom these patients can trust and talk to candidly? Churches that welcome LGBT members without pressuring them to change fundamental aspects of their lives? Mental health specialists that cater to LGBT needs? People who are visibly out (or trans) in the workplace and talk about their loved ones without discomfort? Support for children and adolescents with diverse identities?

There's a world of difference between "yeah, we have gay people" and being a place where LGBT people can build happy, stable lives.

Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by devtosales on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:10PM (#25340250)
Children don’t have diverse identities. I used to think I was Batman, my mate used to think he was black. Impressionable children are impressionable.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by legerdemain on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:58PM (#25340697)
Case in point.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by devtosales on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @05:29AM (#25343697)
What a world when people can attack then rejection of child abuse and that’s socially acceptable.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by mattcaldwell on Thursday December 17, 2020 @09:51AM (#25456053)
Jesus.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by Bahamut on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:28PM (#25339791)
A caveat on the caveat about cars - I live without a car in the suburbs just fine (Sunnyvale). YMMV, but for me a car would be more of a nice to have. I'll probably get one in a few years anyway after maybe buying a house here, but it's not something I view as an urgent expense.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by robotnikman on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:50PM (#25338088)
Phoenix and the surrounding area also has a decent LGBT presence.
Re:Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley... by gmadsen on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:12PM (#25340271)
the article referenced was from 2016... many of the LGBT issues presented are still real concerns.