I hate hate hate running. I used to work out quite a bit but could never get into running and sought other cardio exercises - literally anything that wasn't running.

Over time school, then work, then life simply got in the way and my exercise lapsed. Now in middle age I worked up a minor health issue and my doctor strongly encouraged me to start up on cardio again -- this coincided with both the start of COVID lockdowns and wasn't long after a move to an area with lots of trails nearby.

So I started walking about an hour 3 times a week as weather permitted. Health condition went away, blood pressure dropped, mood improved, sleep improved. I also started enjoying the changing of the seasons more, enjoying nature, being outdoors and all that. I started feeling like eating crap wasn't "right" and started eating better. It's like an entire cascade of wellness.

Not once have I gone for a walk and thought "I'd rather not be doing this" like with running. In fact I usually look forward to my walk and look for excuses to go on one.

Turns out I should have just gone walking all the time instead.

> I started feeling like eating crap wasn't "right" and started eating better. It's like an entire cascade of wellness.

I've noticed this effect strongly with all forms of exercise. The better shape I'm in, the more I naturally gravitate to healthier habits in my diet and elsewhere. Working out more has an awesome compounding positive effect.

Running isn’t the only way to get cardio in. Tabata/HIIT, while making you feel like you’re on the verge of dying, are wonderful and most important safe for your knee joints. Long distance running will wear your meniscus out.

So for everyone here who says they don’t like to run - that’s fine, get on the stairmaster or pick up a kettlebell or medicine ball and do some swings and tosses and side movements. Running will seem like a walk in the park by comparison.

> Long distance running will wear your meniscus out.

Is there any research to back that? Everything I’ve ready says that it is not a fatality and that it is possible to run, for many years (life?) without destroying your joints.

It’s my understanding that your statement is as accurate as saying “driving a car will result in you getting in a car accident”. It’s extremely possible and it has happened to many people but it doesn’t mean it _has_ to happen

A physical therapist once told me that the number of runners (that is, people who have done it regularly for years) who have non-trivial knee problems is in the neighborhood of 75%. Don’t know the source behind that, but it’s stuck with me. And the reason I was there was because of the knee problems I had from running.

The research is mixed. Partly since the advent of modern running sneakers may actually be causing more injuries as a sibling comment pointed out. For a while I was doing PhD research in materials science and created a technique to do materials fatigue testing of the meniscus. Unfortunately that was the first ever such research for meniscus and the data wasn't able to conclude much, alas. The research can't say for sure what injuries are from form and conditions or underlying mechanical limits, or the effect of self-repair mechanisms. After that work though, my opinion is to run on the front of your foot and remain well hydrated as both reduce peak impact forces. Also pay attention to how you twist the knee while running (eg don't twist during land). Also 1/3 of meniscus injuries still appear to be unrelated to any specific injury or activities like running.

> that it is possible to run, for many years (life?) without destroying your joints.

I knew a few people who've done well over 200 marathons (a couple are well over 500, one is over 1500 IIRC, one did >250 in a calendar year) without destroying their joints. Now it might be that their running style (invariably "slow and easy") that lets them do that many marathons also contributes to them avoiding this issue.

I've seen a video where they recorded a runner running barefoot and in shoes. When running barefoot, you tend to step on a front of your foot and much less vibration go to your whole body this way.

I've bought barefoot shoes myself and it is true that I tend to step more on a front part of the foot as well.

"Driving a car will result in you getting in a car accident" is pretty accurate given that the average person will be in an accident.

I've never enjoyed running and never practised it on a regular basis. I have chondromalacia which started (or rather had been diagnosed) in my early twenties. It doesn't prove anything of course, but probably some people are inclined to get joint problems anyway (although running might make it happen quicker probably).

I disagree, running and walking are not really substitutes from a health standpoint. Walking has a lot of health benefits but they're largely orthogonal to traditional vigorous exercise.

Modern research has identified that the major mediator of exercise's physiological benefits is the down-regulation of the adrenal axis.[1] In other words, activating the fight-or-flight sensation is a key component of an exercise program. It's also why very high-intensity exercise seems to produce the most rapid improvement in key biomarkers.[2]

Many people don't like vigorous exercise because they feel like they're dying from the strain. However that painful stressful feeling is largely essential to the process.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010733/ [2] https://www.sciencealert.com/just-12-minutes-of-intense-exer...

Interesting. For a long time I did indeed feel like I was dying when I started running. Now I feel edgy and anxious if I don’t get to run for a few days. We are built to run.

Incidentally running 30 minutes twice a week has been the best thing I ever did for my health. I feel better now than I did in my 20s and that was over 20 years ago!

From what I’ve read, they are interchangeable from a longevity perspective, rapid improvement aside.

Small quibble: there are people who hate jogging, but love fast exercise. I hate hate hate jogging, but loved sprinting, HIIT, and all manner of sports involving quick movements plus slower times.

Not clear which group the people in this thread belong to, but jogging does seem to polarize.

One way to split the difference: rucking. It's just walking while carrying extra weight. Gives you a harder cardiovascular workout that isn't as taxing as running, more along the lines of hiking depending on the weight. I guess biking is another way.

I do a form of rucking and highly recommend it. I don’t think traditional rucking gear is optimal though. The backpack format puts more strain on your back and most rucking forums and such I’ve seen recommend only like 30lbs. The most amazing piece of fitness equipment I have is a 36lb belt which puts no weight on your back and doesn’t hold in heat like a vest. I’ve since had to add a 45lb vest to it, but the vest should at least put less torque on your back than a backpack.

Thanks for introducing me to rucking. I've recently taken up jogging at the age of 40 but it's having a negative affect on my hip and knees. Rucking sounds like something I could really get into.

I had not considered that about the backpack. I'll look into a belt option.

Rucking? I call it going grocery shopping...

If that doesn't work, try riding a bicycle. You can adjust the pace depending on how you feel, and see a lot more than you would on a regular walk. If you pack a lunch, you can go pretty far, relax in a nice place, and head back.

Warning though: this requires amazing bike infrastructure. In most places in the US, cycling on the road can be an extremely stressful experience.

Same for walking- in many towns there is no sidewalk which forces anyone walking onto the gutter.

For bike trails, there is an effort to connect Maine to Florida called the East Coast Greenway: https://www.greenway.org/

Having used it myself, it's not continuous but certainly better than nothing.

How's biking in US outside of big cities? Cause it's the best place to bike in my country (Poland).

You just leave the city and turn to any random small road and you can relax. My favorite are the farming land near Lublin. 30 minutes from the city center there are roads where you pass 1 car per hour :)

https://live.staticflickr.com/7264/6999476374_94c82f49dc_o.j...

And dangerous, too.

Yes, we are truly spoiled here in Germany

You can use a stationary bike

I remember Taleb being really harsh on bike riding which he derided as “unnatural”. Though I can imagine his position being too extreme. I don’t think his proposed alternative of weightlifting is very “natural” either.

Yes, that is exactly what I tried to explain. You don't have to run in order to feel healthy. You can improve your wellbeing and focus by taking a quick walk.

The benefits of it are too immense to ignore.

> I don't even need to have headphones on to enjoy walking!

I think people like Cal Newport actually proposed taking long walks without listening to anything, and I find this idea reasonable. After 15 to 20 minutes my mind settles into a state of being able to come up with ideas and deep reflections that would usually not be possible when I’m simply sitting indoors being distracted by some digital device.

I loved running when my weight bottomed out(168 for a 5'10" frame). As a former fat kid who never ran a mile and always found a health reason to escape PE class it was amazing. It didn't last long though. I met my wife and started gaining weight, and soon I was back to where running hurt like hell.

Now I hike, and I love that. I don't think I'll ever lose enough muscle and fat to get down to where running feels good again.

> I love this. I run (a little), but have never enjoyed it. I've never once experienced a "runner's high"--even when I ran 5-6x per week for years. I still do it a couple times a week because it's a quick way to get my heart beating, and I do feel better afterwards.

I think that "feeling better afterwards" _is_ runner's high.

I find “feeling better afterwards” to be utterly distinct from “runners high”.

“Feeling better” is a given after most training sessions, and I use it as a marker for not being overtrained.

However, there is no way for me to force the “high”. I can facilitate it, maybe. But it mainly comes and goes at it pleases. It may be a fleeting moment or it can last for literal days.

It is like flying. There is no pain - no discomfort at all. The mind disassociates from the body. I am Hermes in his winged sandals. I am God.

Runner’s high is the point where the person running enters a particular state of flow, a sense of release and euphoria where the mind can perceive the entire body as well as each part of it moving with ease and feels whole. It’s part like sex, part just the right amount of drunk (except minus the delusion), part some kind of meditation, sometimes kind of climatic even.

I’d argue that when going for a run at some point it feels like the effort becomes paradoxically effortless and you’re in the “now”, then that’s it. The “feeling better afterwards” is more like aftershock.

(BTW although Info experience the high, I don’t like running, but I do it because there’s such a quick bang for the buck in terms of cardio training, and it’s basically “no excuses” frictionless: dress up, shoes on, go)

In my experience the runners high kicks in around mile 5 or 6, and only if you are fit enough to keep going after that. I've never experienced it on a shorter run.