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Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:30PM (#25249511)
Lol they highlighted running Linux in the first announcement of the ISA switch, they see no threat in Linux at all. Their business model would need to change dramatically for that to happen. They’re a hardware company that makes the hardware more attractive with software, service and device integration. Their software restrictions are part of the value proposition, but anyone fully ejecting from that would be on their own. Linux becoming attractive on their hardware would almost certainly be unsupported, but I seriously doubt it would be undermined.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by CharlesW on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:53PM (#25249666)
> Linux becoming attractive on their hardware would almost certainly be unsupported, but I seriously doubt it would be undermined.

This. Apple doesn't even care about Hackintoshes, which are (theoretically) orders of magnitude more threatening to Apple's business model since they (theoretically) cannibalize Mac sales.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by someperson on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:16PM (#25249808)
Reminds me of that Bill Gates quote from 1998:

> Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though," Gates told an audience at the University of Washington. "And as long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.

I am sure Apple loves that Hackintosh users are in the Apple ecosystem (often developing software for Apple machines), and many will eventually start buying real Apple hardware.

Apple will turn a blind eye to Hackintosh as long as the process stays too difficult to ever cannibalize sales.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by jjoonathan on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:44PM (#25250263)
Did they ever start getting license revenue from China? I've had a few recent interactions with Chinese businesses that suggest piracy is still rampant and shameless.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by egsmi on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:03AM (#25251134)
http://www.chinagoabroad.com/en/article/microsoft-s-cloud-co...

"A survey conducted by Forrester Research earlier this month showed that Microsoft has already become the country’s second-biggest cloud services provider, with its Office 365 and Azure platforms."

Looks like the subscription model did the trick.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by kalleboo on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:47PM (#25250538)
They're probably still better off than if they clamped down on piracy and China decided to develop a competitor to Windows and switched to that
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by cies on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:04AM (#25252592)
China did, it's (was) called Red Flag Linux. It's shut down now. I believe this product was mainly a tactic to get the Chinese gov't a better position in negotiating deal with MS (probably regarding both cost and access to backdoors).
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by squarefoot on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:14AM (#25250933)
> Apple doesn't even care about Hackintoshes

That's because their numbers are so low that they don't represent a threat, but still contribute to keep users hooked to the Apple ecosystem, which is vital for them; of 10 people with a Hackintosh there may be no real Mac users, but many of them are likely to own an iPhone and use other Apple services; Apple need to keep those customers so they close both eyes on Hackintoshes. Also, since they offer no warranty for non original Apple hardware, it wouldn't impact much their corporate users base, which often are forced to use the real thing.

One side effect of making their own line of CPUs, and a system that as for now, runs only on them, however, could also be seen as a way to kill the Hackintoshes "competition", or it may be just a nice side effect for them. Time will tell.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by minot on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:10PM (#25249768)
The main reason to run hackintosh as far as I know is to write software for macOS or iOS. Apple won’t encourage corporations to build hackintoshes but as long as it isn’t too easy to install macOS anywhere I don’t see how — on net — it hurts apple.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by Wowfunhappy on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:36PM (#25249901)
> The main reason to run hackintosh as far as I know is to write software for macOS or iOS.

I suspect a lot of Hackintoshes users do so because they like using macOS day-to-day, but don't see anything appealing in Apple's hardware lineup.

I'm one of them.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by fangorn on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:11AM (#25251701)
Won't Apple silicon eradicate hackintoshes eventually? I mean, you won't be able to just buy Apple's components and assemble a computer. If you were, it's really just a Mac, isn't it? I imagine they'll support x86_64 based systems for a few more years, but there won't be new drivers or support for new cpus, etc.

I wonder if it occurred to someone at Apple, if it's somewhat an added benefit to them.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by michelb on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:38AM (#25252189)
I'm on my second hackintosh now, and while setup is now easier, I still need to be careful with what I buy/update/upgrade. Right now, I'm getting way more bang for my buck. (faster cpu, faster gpu, normal priced ram+storage)

With apple silicon, I hope they release a decent 'mac pro' or something that is good enough for me. Prices won't go down obviously, so here's hoping we can at least install third-party ram + storage.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by waheoo on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:25PM (#25250159)
I don't agree with you but I am glad you exist.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:44PM (#25250523)
What makes MacOS good?
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by zimpenfish on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:33AM (#25251830)
When they moved to HiDPI screens, everything worked. In contrast, when I moved my Windows 10 box to a 4K monitor, everything was unbelievably tiny until I set the system scaling to 300%. Which then broke some apps (far too large text, etc.) that I had to go through the "run in this scaling compatibility mode" debacle. Except some other apps still had small text and icons (looking at you, Chitubox!) which required the "run in this other scaling compatibility mode" finagling. Imagine having a "mature" OS where people are still dealing with this after years.

(and this is just one of the pain points I get from Windows 10 every day that I don't get from macOS.)

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:58AM (#25252893)
So you have more pain points with Windows 10 than Apple corporation?

My biggest pain are how Apple treats everyone, for the last 30 years. It's unbelievably frustrating.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by zimpenfish on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:38AM (#25253541)
> So you have more pain points with Windows 10 than Apple corporation?

Yes. Especially if you add in how Microsoft Corporation have treated people over the last 30 years too.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by hehetrthrthrjn on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:04PM (#25250625)
Generally good design and user-centered design (but that's being eroded with every new release) along with attention to detail.

Small examples: you can scroll a window without having to click on it to make it active, applications don't refer to files using paths but file ids instead so you can generally move files around a disk while they are open without things breaking.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by rfoo on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:32AM (#25251006)
> you can scroll a window without having to click on it to make it active

This works on Windows, and most sane Linux DEs are either default to that or can be configured to do that.

> applications don't refer to files using paths but file ids instead so you can generally move files around a disk while they are open without things breaking.

Do you mean they hold an opening fd of the file, which is also not special at all? Otherwise it is pretty interesting, please elaborate.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by hehetrthrthrjn on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:06AM (#25251673)
I only really use macOS these days, so they've clearly improved or borrowed features since I last looked, but I guess the point is that those features were implemented long ago.

The ability to implement file access the way is obviously possible on any OS, but on the Mac it's consistently implemented that way in applications, except for a couple of bad actors. On other OSes it's much more mixed. The same can be said for many other small features. There's a just a lot better consistency overall on macOS.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by e_proxus on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:30AM (#25253077)
> Do you mean they hold an opening fd of the file, which is also not special at all? Otherwise it is pretty interesting, please elaborate.

Exactly. Special notwithstanding, it’s still a nice feature and not something Windows has to my knowledge, at least not common (i.e. “File is in use” errors). On macOS you can e.g. move a file to trash while it’s being used still by some running program.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by gsich on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:14AM (#25251171)
Somewhat not consistent though. But I don't know if that is the fault of the application or Windows.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by koyote on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:23AM (#25250962)
The scrolling behaviour also exists in Windows and in Linux.

I believe (if I understand what you mean correctly) that the file system behaviour is also a Linux thing. Deleting a file that is open is completely fine in Linux.

I think UX between the three OSs is almost completely a matter of habit and familiarity these days. I for one can't see how anyone can be productive with the (what I believe is abysmal) window management on a Mac but millions of people like it so I'd probably get used to it if I wanted to.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by danieldk on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:04AM (#25251373)
file system behaviour is also a Linux thing

It's required by POSIX, so all modern UNIX-like systems have this behavior:

When the file's link count becomes 0 and no process has the file open, the space occupied by the file shall be freed and the file shall no longer be accessible. If one or more processes have the file open when the last link is removed, the link shall be removed before unlink() returns, but the removal of the file contents shall be postponed until all references to the file are closed.

https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/u...

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by sixbrx on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:02AM (#25253745)
> the file system behaviour is also a Linux thing

I think the interesting part is being missed here, the behavior is that the file is being identified to apps by a uniquie identifier which is not the path, so referrering apps still find it after it's been moved, even when they didn't have it open already. More like using the inode as the identifier maybe? This is a behavior that goes all the way back through the pre-OSX macs. It was part of some sort of philosophy for Macs though I forget its name.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by andreareina on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:29AM (#25251489)
Reason I bought a Mac way back when is that I wasn't going to go back to Windows if I could avoid it, and I needed to run Photoshop.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:52AM (#25252862)
This sounds a tad irrational, but I also hate windows once every 4 years.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by andreareina on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:35AM (#25253110)
That sounds a tad presumptive.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by pedro596 on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:09AM (#25252619)
- Normally is attached to very good-looking and sturdy machines

- You can have (..)nix like terminal in half of the screen and Office, Photoshop, and most of the shiny SW ("except games") running flawlessly in the other half without some kind of VM

- The battery of this very nice machines that it comes attached to may last a day

- Customization is a bit more restricted than its (..)nix cousins so most of the time it runs flawlessly even if you don't know what you're doing

- It connects very well with the other device that a lot of people carry in their pockets

- There are not a lot of combinations of HW + MacOs that you can run so online support tends to be very good

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:56AM (#25252886)
Can't really take this seriously when your first line is false.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by MobiusHorizons on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:45AM (#25253587)
Would you care to elaborate?

Try as I might, I have never found any laptop that is even half as sturdily built as a macbook. Yes apple plays dirty tricks that prevent inexpensive repair, but TBH, no one else produces a product that physically lasts long enough to be worth repairing by the time the board level components gives out.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:04PM (#25256006)
Butterfly keyboards. Lack of ports. That's just from memory.

I'm sure Apple denies any faulty hardware as they did with their keyboards.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by MobiusHorizons on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:33PM (#25256387)
Oh gotcha, I certainly agree that the keyboards were a problem, and it was not cool how Apple pretended it was a non-issue for so long. It definitely prevented me from purchasing one during the time they using those keyboards.

That said, I am using one of those Macbook Pros for work, and the overall build is still very impressive. I would expect this machine to last longer physically than any of the non-mac laptops I have ever used.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by kergonath on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:42AM (#25251275)
UNIX with good taste and a decent UI.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:52AM (#25252855)
That makes up for Apple being Apple?
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by kergonath on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:19PM (#25257013)
Does it make up for running on well designed hardware? Well, yes it does. That’s also irrelevant to your question I was answering (well, I know you were trolling, but anyway).
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:28PM (#25271904)
Don’t shift the goalposts. You can ask what makes [product] good, or what excuses [company]’s actions, but it’s not the same question.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:31PM (#25271936)
As an example: I find Amazon to be one of the most blatantly evil large consumer facing tech companies; I hate giving them money and avoid it as much as I can often at my own expense; their consumer facing products are wildly good for most common usage scenarios and I understand why they’re successful even though I wish they weren’t.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by 2muchcoffeeman on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:38AM (#25251869)
Unix based OS where sleep and hibernate work flawlessly, decent UI, with good commercial and open source software support? Also all the hardware works?

I like Linux, but it’s no where near as polished as Mac OS. Wasn’t 20 years ago. Isn’t now.

Hell, I’m thinking I should just reinstall windows and use WSL2.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:06PM (#25256035)
That first paragraph isn't accurate.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by sbuk on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:13PM (#25256927)
> That first paragraph isn't accurate[...]

"...in my opinion."

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by deergomoo on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:49AM (#25252504)
It's a *nix with real Office and Photoshop
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:55AM (#25252885)
I'm not following why these are related. I use Linux for dev, I use windows for office and Photoshop.

None of those require macOS.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by deergomoo on Monday November 30, 2020 @09:02AM (#25253747)
That's nice, I hope you enjoy your setup.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by woahAcademia on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:05PM (#25256026)
Really makes you wonder how many people are just buying because of marketing and psychology tricks.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by deergomoo on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:55PM (#25257433)
Or perhaps they just value different things than you? Assuming that the only reason someone might enjoy a product is because of marketing trickery is pretty elitist.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by hehetrthrthrjn on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:14PM (#25250658)
The main reason for me is that Apple hardware is (from my experience) unacceptably unreliable and their warranty service is infuriating.

Add to that a lack of expandability, customizability, (user) repairability and (hardware) compatibility.

Life is just a lot less miserable without having to deal with Apple hardware. PC components seem to be very reliable when you spend just middle-range prices and you can easily buy and swap out components when something does go wrong.

I generally go many months without having to reboot my Hackintosh, and I can't ever remember having a kernel panic after initial setup. Both of those things were not true with Apple hardware.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by rileymat2 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:45PM (#25249953)
They were a hardware company, but are moving into services for continued growth, which puts them at odds with an open platform. The business model is changing. https://www.statista.com/statistics/382136/quarterly-segment...

You can see services revenue is up to 14 billion compared to iPhone's 26 billion.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:12AM (#25250924)
Why would services put them at odds with an open platform? (I’m pretty sure they use that open platform for many of their services)
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by wizzwizz4 on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:27AM (#25251479)
Making it harder not to use their services permits them to profit thereby (e.g. via the Apple tax).
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Monday November 30, 2020 @10:44AM (#25254917)
Why would an open platform running on their hardware impact service usage at all? Let’s be clear what an open platform on ARM Mac is: people (such as a lot of folks here) who already prefer an open platform and want M-series performance, not a significant proportion of the macOS user base developing a preference for Linux.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by ngcc_hk on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:29PM (#25250464)
And that is revenue. Guess margins is the main question.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:15AM (#25250938)
That’s pretty easy to ballpark. Everything Apple does targets a whole package 25-30% margin. If the services aren’t generating that margin, the hardware is making it up. Last I heard the iPhone is on that margin target, as are all or nearly all macs. So it’s pretty reasonable to assume the services are pretty close in line.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by toyg on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:49PM (#25256587)
Services actually hover in the 60% gross margin, vs 30% for hardware. But they sell so much hardware that the overall profits are still 80% from that.

Source: https://sec.report/Document/0000320193-19-000119/

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by Dylan16807 on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:35AM (#25252430)
> whole package margin

> If the services aren’t generating that margin, the hardware is making it up.

I really don't like that way of looking at profits.

Going by that standard, if you sell a thousand dollar device with $260 in margin and no software, everything is great.

But then if you add on $600 in software to increase your margin to $330, that's bad somehow?

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Monday November 30, 2020 @10:48AM (#25254957)
Huh? I wasn’t making a value judgment at all, just observing Apple’s historical behavior. That is how they look at profit. And they move all sorts of revenue around to make certain price points more appealing. Mac mini gets cheaper at entry level, macOS is free. To the extent those are lower margin, they make it up in services or other hardware lines.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by Dylan16807 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:53PM (#25257418)
Huh? I wasn't judging you at all, just insulting Apple's historical behavior, how they look at profit.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by MrBuddyCasino on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:03AM (#25251656)
> they see no threat in Linux at all

Imagine thinking macOS is threatened by Linux. Guys like this will never understand the appeal of the Apple ecosystem, it is beyond their comprehension. There are some good reasons to run Linux, but shouldn't you at least be capable of seeing why Apple makes the kind of money they do, beyond the "well those customers must obviously be stupid and less enlightened than myself, a true warrior of the Free Software tribe"? Why are people like this.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by higerordermap on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:49AM (#25252240)
> "well those customers must obviously be stupid and less enlightened than myself, a true warrior of the Free Software tribe"

Sort of.

For most MacBook users, a chromebook will be more sensible choice.

And iphones sell because fashion.

iOS is locked down, and Mac app Store is also a candy shop. Because there are stupid people to spend money on shit mobile games, apple makes quite a lot of money.

And they do lot of deceitful marketing. Apple software is getting shit year by year.

Most people buy apple because "brand", and get accustomed to it and don't like slightest change.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by samvher on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:24AM (#25252698)
My next machine is going to be a Linux machine. Having said that, Apple builds high quality products - my 2012 MacBook Pro is still very good, and the software is incredibly stable. Yes a lot of stuff is locked down but that also means the interface is predictable and stable, mostly things just work.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by segfaultbuserr on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:59PM (#25250600)
+1. The real problem is not software incompatibilities or restrictions, but simply the lack of any vendor support and documentation. For a Linux port to "fail" (in the sense of very low usability), Apple doesn't even have to do anything actively, staying unresponsive and unsupporting is sufficient. Without comprehensive documentation, the development will be a long struggle.

- First, having good hardware support even on x86_64, a known platform with vendor support, can be problematic.

Even on a standard laptop where Linux works just fine, it's still a struggle for the community to get all the peripherals working after a new laptop has been released. Usually new computers can take a year or two before everything is sorted out. For example, on my Lenovo tablet, it took a whole year before every driver has stabilized, yet the integrated audio still didn't work (even when two company employees were actively supporting it on Linux), and I had to take an USB soundcard on-the-go, a really frustrating experience. Eventually I found the problem in the source code, fixed it, and submitted it to LKML - happy end. But it's not the only problem I had, and not everyone is lucky to have an easy problem - the more non-standard the platform is, the more problematic it is, just ask Microsoft Surface Book users for confirmation.

- Second, power management is already a somewhat unsolvable problem on x86_64, again, it's a known platform, and often with vendor support.

It's increasingly difficult to do power saving in modern laptops with highly integrated SoC - a single component can prevent the entire system from entering a deeper power saving state. In the old days, CPU and graphics were basically everything, but nowadays there can be an endless number of traps - a SATA driver or an audio driver can be the culprit. And even when developers have gone through the trouble of supporting power saving in a device driver based on the existing documentation, it's often plagued with mysterious bugs that baffles everyone (the Window driver often includes nonstandard workarounds that is difficult to be discovered without familiarity with the hardware and systematic testing). And not to mention that many subsystems are poorly documented that prevents the implementation of power management. On many machines, it's already safe to say that nobody knows how power management really works, and nobody knows how to fix it.

- Third, reverse engineering the GPU driver is hard, GPU driver is still a disaster on Nvidia x86_64 and ARM SoCs.

In the past decade, it's well known that Nvidia had done a successful job to destroy Nouveau, the free and open source driver for Nvidia graphics, by simply not providing documentation and tech support. It took years of reverse engineering to get basic 3D rendering, and another few years for reclocking support. And the introduction of signed firmware for hardware initialization and control essentially rendered Nouveau unusable on the last few generations. The problem is GPU is not limited to complex hardware like Nvidia graphics, even the graphics on relatively simple ARM SoCs have this problem, documentation is nonexistent and reverse engineering is slow. The Mali GPU commonly found on ARM single board computers is still having problem on performance, stability and hardware support.

Even on an extremely popular platform, with known documentation (after requests from the community) and strong community support - the Raspberry Pi, it still takes 3 years or so before the 3D graphics driver, VC4, is developed into a usable state.

---

Porting Linux to Apple Silicon is a challenge that requires developers to accomplish a similar task, but under the conditions of (1) to a brand new platform, (2) with unknown, new and non-standard peripherals, including the GPU, (3) without adequate documentation. It's easy to make the kernel boot, but making it usable is the sum of all nightmares.

You'll find none of the peripherals works, and the community reverse engineering efforts will take years before getting basic functionality, and even then, the battery will only last for 2 hours and will forever be broken. Graphics acceleration will be nonexistent or just borderline usable. And only Apple knows the technical details, nobody can fix it.

Unless the circumstances change and indicate otherwise, I think the Apple Silicon port will be a serious waste of community time, talents, and resources. It's better to spend time on a platform where vendor support and documentation exists...

However, the conclusion assumes that a serious competitor of Apple Silicon will eventually emerge and more supportive to the community, but it won't necessarily happen. I'm somewhat afraid that biting the bullet and reverse engineering the Apple Silicon could be the only way to have a high-performance Linux desktop on ARM - I hope not.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by heavyset_go on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:21PM (#25257036)
This is, unfortunately, the conclusion I've come to, as well. Thanks for the write up.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by iso1631 on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:01AM (#25252580)
> Lol they highlighted running Linux in the first announcement of the ISA switch, they see no threat in Linux at all

First they ignore you

Then they laugh at you

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by otabdeveloper4 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:03AM (#25251653)
> they see no threat in Linux at all

Yet.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by yellowapple on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:14AM (#25252049)
I mean, hopefully they haven't entirely sold their hardware-company soul, in which case Linux support would only help hardware sales, even if by a little bit. Apple certainly didn't do much to interfere with people porting Linux and BSDs to their PowerPC hardware back in the day (and indeed, the Powerbook G4 sitting on my bed right now is mostly-happily running OpenBSD).

However, considering Apple's behavior around iPhones and iPads, I don't expect those hopes to come to much fruition.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by cies on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:13AM (#25252636)
If you use Linux on an Apple laptop, you are less likely to use their software stores, mobile phones, tablets, headphones, etc.

The integratedness of Apple's offerings depend on the control they have on both software and hardware. I think it's the integratedness that sells Apple's product.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by whereistimbo on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:33AM (#25252750)
But is amount of people that want to use Linux on an Apple laptop going to be relevant to Apple? Given most consumer would rather use preloaded OS and the state of the linux on the desktop, I don't really think it matters to Apple.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by cies on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:59AM (#25252901)
> I don't really think it matters to Apple [given] amount of people that want to use Linux on an Apple

Agreed. But the point I argues was that Apple does not care because they sell hardware either way. I think they care a lot their hardware is used to runt their software, as this is a big reason to sell more hardware.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by otabdeveloper4 on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:48AM (#25252839)
Despite what people say, I view the possibility that Microsoft might switch to the Linux kernel to run Windows as very much real.

NT is very much legacy code in maintenance mode, switching to something that's more modern that's also the base for Android makes a lot of sense.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by yellowapple on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:29PM (#25257844)
Right, but at least before iOS those software offerings were specifically to make the hardware more attractive. Being able to install Linux or Windows or what have you doesn't really impact that much, since the option to reinstall macOS and return to that "integratedness" always exists, and since there's nobody holding a gun to "normal" users' heads saying "you must install an entirely different operating system" (and indeed, Apple taking a stance of "we don't officially support this, and strongly suggest you stick with macOS, but if you really know what you're doing we won't get in your way" would be perfectly reasonable).

Nowadays, especially on iOS, it seems like the software is the focus. I'd argue that's a mistake that will sooner rather than later bite Apple in the ass. Hopefully the switch to M1 is a sign that Apple realizes this and wants to move back toward making top-notch hardware instead of coasting on App Store rent-seeking and planned obsolescence.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by fartcannon on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:12PM (#25250650)
The phrase 'I seriously doubt' should have to be backed up by money.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by eyelidlessness on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:24PM (#25250714)
Okay. I’ll give you a dollar if I’m wrong
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by romanoderoma on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:45AM (#25251904)
> They’re a hardware company that makes the hardware more attractive with software

They also make hardware that to take advantage of the new software features need to become obsolete

Linux extends the life of any hardware it runs on