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Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by superasn on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @01:35AM (#24976981)
I was just reading the pale blue dot and he mentions that Voyager 2’s scan platform jammed after its encounter with Saturn.

Voyager 2 emerged from behind Saturn (as seen from the Earth) in August 1981. The scan platform had been moving feverishly—pointing here and there among the rings, moons, and the planet itself during the all-too-brief moments of close approach. Suddenly, the platform jammed. A stuck scan platform is a maddening predicament: knowing that the spacecraft is flying past wonders that have never been witnessed, that we will not see again for years or decades, and the incurious spacecraft staring fixedly off into space, ignoring everything.

The scan platform is driven by actuators containing gear trains. So first the JPL engineers ran an identical copy of a flight actuator in a simulated mission. This actuator failed after 348 turns; the actuator on the spacecraft had failed after 352 turns. The problem turned out to be a lubrication failure. Good to know, but what to do about it? Plainly, it would be impossible to overtake Voyager with an oilcan.

The engineers wondered whether they could restart the failed actuator by alternate heating and cooling; maybe the resulting thermal stresses would induce the components of the actuator to expand and contract at different rates and unjam the system. They tested this notion with specially manufactured actuators in the laboratory, and then jubilantly found that in this way they could start the scan platform up again in space. Project personnel also devised ways to diagnose any additional trend toward actuator failure early enough to work around the problem. Thereafter, Voyager 2’s scan platform worked perfectly. All the pictures taken in the Uranus and Neptune systems owe their existence to this work. The engineers had saved the day again.

Our hacks are nothing compared to the hacks of these old school nasa programmers :)

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by onion2k on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:27AM (#24977281)
Our hacks are nothing compared to the hacks of these old school nasa programmers :)

The amazing thing (to me) is that they developed the Voyager spacecraft in an era when space flight wasn't hugely popular and the budgets at NASA were being cut regularly. NASA went from a peak of $6bn a year in the mid-sixties under Johnson to almost half that under Ford and Nixon. The engineers were well-respected and they clearly felt the work was important, but they weren't particularly well paid. They did this for the love and the science.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by brazzy on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:42AM (#24977355)
It's great, but hardly amazing. Most academic research is done by underpaid PhD and postdoc students for the love of science, and most of that is far less glamorous than SPACE.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by part1of2 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:09AM (#24979755)
> Most academic research is done by underpaid PhD and postdoc students for the love of science

I’d hardly call the graduate papers coming out of academia equivalent to the level of innovation & creativity of what the engineers above described. Perhaps they’re both underpaid, but one is certainly more amazing. Hardly the same.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by matthewdgreen on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:37AM (#24980568)
You should read Rhodes’ “The Making of the Atomic Bomb” if you want to understand what incredible engineering feats academic scientists are capable of — when the people are tightly focused on achieving a single goal. You should also read Rhodes’ book if you want to understand why unguided fundamental scientific research itself is so critical, even when it doesn’t immediately seem useful to you: without the discoveries of science, nuclear fission wouldn’t have been understood. (Of course, many will disagree that the development atomic bomb is a good outcome, but that’s a very different conversation.)
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by BenjiWiebe on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @01:33PM (#24982504)
I love that book. It takes a while to read but it's worth it.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @12:41PM (#24981895)
That's a pretty amazing comment to me. Perhaps I am biased because of all the blood sweat tears and life I spent publishing papers in academia. Generally, with the exception of certain low quality publication venues, certain fringe areas of humanities, and of course review papers, each academic paper is a new contribution to science that has never been made before. Heating and cooling something to unjam it? That's been done since the dawn of modern engineering. A neat story (and I mean it), but hardly an astounding level of innovation and creativity.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by jonathanyc on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:47PM (#24983801)
Are you seriously claiming almost every academic paper in a prestigious journal demonstrates more innovation and creativity than that displayed by the deployment of the Voyager spacecraft? I strongly disagree.

Remember also that a large fraction if not a majority of the Voyager team almost certainly had PhDs or even came from academia. I think we can appreciate innovation and creativity everywhere without having to make it into a genital measuring contest.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:01AM (#25042950)
I was responding to a comment about a story that was specifically about the unjamming by heating/cooling; a phenomenon which everyone above the age of six knows about. My comment was not a genital measuring context, nor did it have anything to do with the innovation and creativity displayed by the deployment of the Voyager space craft.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by viklove on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:43PM (#24983752)
This is clearly about more than just unjamming a part, but the work that was put into building the probe, sending it to the edge of the solar system, and the fact that it's still functional today.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by brazzy on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:19AM (#24980974)
The person I was replying to was very clearly not calling the result itself amazing, but the fact that it was achieved by people whose budgets had been cut in half and who were not well paid.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by abhayhegde on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @08:53AM (#24979633)
I believe the aspect of beauty and glamor is a matter of taste and hence very subjective. Maybe some projects may turn out to be less influential, but nevertheless it appeals to a particular community.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by libraryatnight on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:01AM (#24980791)
That sounds more amazing, and less great.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by OldHand2018 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @12:00PM (#24981435)
You can't just look at the NASA budget. Defense spending was also a huge part of our activities in space.

My grandfather built satellites at Lockheed in Sunnyvale all through the 60s and 70s and it was a glorious time for him. For reasons that I never quite understood, he hated Reagan for "destroying the industry" in the 80s (by which time he was in Denver at MM).

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by melling on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:37AM (#24979974)
We spent more money under Nixon and Ford than we do now.

You’re not familiar with how much money as a percentage of GDP we spent in the 1960s? It’s noteworthy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA#Annual_budget

We were building the Space Shuttle and exploring the planets.

I wish we could spend money on NASA like we did in the 1970’s

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by btilly on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:41AM (#24981248)
I wish that the problem were money alone.

In the 60s, they were pushing to get things out and accepted risk levels that today we would consider intolerable.

Today we've developed a cost-plus contracting approach plus insane safety and success standards that mean it is almost impossible to actually get anything done. With one notable exception - SpaceX.

Just throwing money into Boeing and Lockheed these days would generate profits for them, but not a lot of science for us. We need to change culture as well.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by melling on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @01:43PM (#24982611)
That’s why I’ve been arguing for over a decade that we should use more robotics and unmanned missions.

I remember someone on HN telling me several years ago that Virgin Galactic would be back quickly.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by onion2k on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:53AM (#24980107)
I wish we could spend money on NASA like we did in the 1970’s

I absolutely agree. It's far worse now. And, not at all coincidently, NASA is doing much less science now. A return to the 70s budget by GDP would be good, but a return to the 60s budget by GDP would be even better.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by pavon on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:53AM (#24981354)
I don't see anything on that page given as a percentage of GDP, just percentage of federal budget, and inflation adjusted. And while the inflation adjusted numbers have been on the decrease since the early 90s (when shuttle production ramped down) they are still a little higher than they were in the 70s.

I'd love to see NASA's budget increased, but not now - it would just get funneled into dead-end pork projects like SLS. I'd much rather wait till Starship is successfully operating (New Glenn would be a plus), and it is political viable to end the SLS entirely, and redirect all that money and some into missions (both science and exploration) rather than hardware development.

Or to put it another way, it isn't worth it to me to spend 1960's era money if we are only going to get 1960's era results. If we ever want to move on to bigger things in space, like colonization, we can't just throw money at the problem, we need to find ways to bring the cost down first.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by aazaa on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:31AM (#24981125)
Nixon, yes, but not Ford - at least in inflation-adjusted dollar terms. %GDP spend was higher in that period, but 72-76 dollar spend was less.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by wst_ on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:42AM (#24977356)
I found out that usually happens when you have some constraints. The more constraints the more clever ways people find to achieve their goal.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:12AM (#24977520)
It makes me think of the demoscene, that is doing things like getting 3D graphics on the Commodore or whatever it was.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by Anarch157a on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @08:01AM (#24979217)
Watch the 8088MPH demo on youtube, then read how it was done [0], it's absolutelly insane what you can extract from an IBM PC 5150.

[0] https://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-al...

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by prox on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:18AM (#24978206)
Future Crew - Second Reality
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by onion2k on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:57AM (#24980150)
Check out Zarch on the Acorn Archimedes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNXypBxNGMo It's an awesome 3D game from 1987 (with truly awful sound). That was made 6 years before Second Reality, on a RISC-based computer. It's incredible.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by prox on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @12:16PM (#24981619)
Thats a pretty zippy frame rate there :)

I did recognize the style, and then reading the comments Isaw it was indeed by David “Elite” Braben.

Watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbsfeubbRA Quite a journey from there to here

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by mkl on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:57AM (#24978425)
That was a 1993 PC demo, not C64. I had to mess with my config.sys and autoexec.bat to get it to run, but watched it repeatedly.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by jacobush on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:08AM (#24978875)
Yeah but that demo was later re-created on the C64, arguably the C64 version is better. :-D
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by Someone on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:57AM (#24979191)
For those who don’t know about these demos:

- http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63 (PC; page has link to source code)

- http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1216 (C64)

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by nitrogen on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:34AM (#24979950)
When I saw that one I had never seen anything so smoothly animated before that demo in my life. I think my brief exposure to the demoscene spoiled me, because I now can't stand the slightest graphics hiccup in anything.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by grogenaut on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:28AM (#24978260)
I think that's inherent, the more constraints the more clever you have to be.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by dkonofalski on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:20AM (#24980985)
And the goal is always getting it to run DooM.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by backtoyoujim on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @12:23PM (#24981683)
and we have found the genesis of corruption.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by yetihehe on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:11AM (#24977514)
Up until so much constraints than even the most clever give up.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ProAm on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:38PM (#24983155)
It's not 'hacking' it's engineering.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by brlewis on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:01PM (#24984518)
When it's ground nobody's covered before, it's hacking.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ProAm on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:58PM (#24985754)
I do not believe that is accurate and I also find it disrespectful to call engineers 'hackers'. Most people today that refer to themselves has 'hackers' are also not (also get off my lawn).
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by myth_drannon on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:22AM (#24979852)
It looks like they spent a lot of resources to fix it. In our current business environment, the engineers will be moved to another more visible/successful project and this one will be written off.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by m463 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:44AM (#24977361)
It has become commonplace to solve hardware problems with software. But many times it is not for heroic reasons, it's because hardware is cost-reduced.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ReptileMan on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:49AM (#24978373)
Unfortunately when preparing something for space missions you have constraints that are not as easily solvable as throwing more money.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by radiorental on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:04AM (#24980229)
I'm not sure I'd agree with that at all. On the surface of this planet software is used to simulate hardware as it's much quicker to iterate on a design.

In space, however, you can only run the hardware in it's destined environment once. Software is critical to the design process regardless of the HW costs.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by patmorgan23 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:46PM (#24983237)
Intel has patched hardware flaws using microcode updates before.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by TheCondor on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:09PM (#24982846)
A former coworker/friend was telling me similar stories of his uncle working on missile guidance analog computers from the 1970s. He referred to it as "proper engineering"
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:10PM (#24983455)
That the difference between actual engineers and software engineers.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ponker on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:37AM (#24978301)
They didn't even spin something 350 times before launching it out of the solar system?
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by Kye on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:55AM (#24980123)
It's remarkable to see people doing the usual "well this could obviously have been avoided by..." on something still functioning after 43 years and almost 12 billion miles from home in the most hazardous environment known to humans.

They did an absolutely amazing job and I take it as a given that this was not some novice mistake.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by dirktheman on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:44AM (#24978348)
If the actuator broke down the 351st time, would you've commented 'they didn't even spin something 400 times...'? What would be a number you'd be comfortable with instead?
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by curryst on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:49AM (#24979139)
I would have thought they would run every part until it died so they know roughly what it's lifespan is. It's good if the parts lifespan is twice as long as you need. However, it's even better if you could make it four times the amount you think you need, as long as it isn't horribly expensive.

I would tend to assume they've thought of that though, and stuck with this part for reasons. Maybe there werent other space-ready alternatives or something.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by jerf on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:45AM (#24980042)
I don't think any of us are in a position to be too critical of the engineering done for the Voyager probes. The number of machines running continuously for longer than I've been alive with no maintenance is pretty short; the number of them out past the orbit of Pluto even smaller.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by R0b0t1 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:32PM (#24983650)
This is actually a fairly egregious oversight, but it is good to know they fixed it.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by kryptiskt on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:03AM (#24980821)
It's impossible with current technology to make a vacuum as good as outer space on Earth, which hampers testing of components in realistic conditions. See also Galileo's antenna.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by jjk166 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:35PM (#24983682)
When you are weight constrained the way a space probe is, every factor of safety above the bare minimum is horribly expensive. With no risk to human life and a skilled team of engineers on the ground, the cost of further risk reduction easily may not be worth it.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by elcomet on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:42AM (#24978709)
Maybe the expected number of times it would be expected to spin in space (or twice that to make sure it's working)
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by amelius on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:47AM (#24978739)
The initial Voyager program already ended, and they are now in an "extended" mission.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by amelius on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:04AM (#24978478)
640k
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ballenf on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @01:12PM (#24982260)
Maybe as many times as needed to do the minimal in-solar-system observations that were planned well in advance?

On the other hand, if they had to budget for a second copy of everything in advance they may have never gotten to launch. Asking for the funding after already having good success behind them is likely a lot easier.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by rmu09 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:16AM (#24978928)
Accelerated simulation of the effects of years in the vacuum and temperature of outer space on lubricants is non-trivial.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by frank2 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:29AM (#24979008)
But a duplicate of the actuator failed in a lab on Earth after almost exactly as many turns as the actuator in space lasted -- that's how they determined the cause of the spacecraft's going offline.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by Hnrobert42 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @08:49AM (#24979608)
True, but that confirmed the test run in space, not the other way around. It may have be hard to know in advance if 348 failures on Earth is representative of space, especially because it wouldn’t just be that one system. It would have been lots of parts built in to system working together.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by moftz on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:34AM (#24980548)
Original mission for Voyager 2 was Jupiter and Saturn fly-bys which was mostly a success. The idea is to engineer parts to survive the mission and maybe go a bit further if you aren't at a point of diminishing returns in regards to cost. If it costs $1000 for a 10% gain in life of part, maybe go for it. $1M for 10%? Maybe not. Additionally, gamma radiation can do some weird things to materials and can effect things differently depending on dose rate. Lubricants can increase in viscosity and acidity under gamma. Radiation effects on spacecraft was not as big of a deal back then. Missions were short and electronics weren't small enough to have noticeable radiation effects.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by GoToRO on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:09AM (#24979758)
What you say is just common sense but as you can see from the downvotes, average people do not like smart people. And the exact same thing happened before the launch, I bet. But the exceptional engineer was simply “downvoted”.

Things are tested all the time in factories. For how long? Till destruction.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ben_w on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:38AM (#24981190)
One of the standard examples of common sense is “everything that goes up must come down”.

When it comes to space missions, common sense starts bad and rapidly gets worse — there is no down, there is no “now”, metals can contact-weld without any supply of energy, exposed fluids boil until they freeze, radiation pressure is relevant, ionising radiation doses can be enough to break things, impact damage is radically different, launch times are prescribed by orbital dynamics, engines are more efficient when they are moving faster, fuel use is exponential with regard to change in velocity and nothing to do with distance, and the launch mass is heavily constrained. And that’s just the stuff I know from following Scott Manley and similar on YouTube — I’m a very long way from being a rocket engineer.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by GoToRO on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:32PM (#24983095)
Is that your justification for not testing the actuator? Space is hard, let's not test things?
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by ben_w on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:23PM (#24983569)
If you want to launch on the Grand Tour, your launch options are the 1970s and the 2140s.

You hit the date, you test what you can, within that constraint.

(They were also heavily budget limited, and I’m sure everyone here has an example of a project which became more expensive because someone decided they “couldn’t afford testing”).

Even then, even despite people who probably have PhDs in specific engineering topics I can’t even name, half the time you can’t even tell what’s important to test vs “it’s common sense this will work fine for a thousand cycles” — hence the long list of missions which failed catastrophically.

It is rocket science.

Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by bakedbeanz on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @01:28PM (#24982450)
Ah, but of course you are one of The Smart People whereas we plebians (and the NASA scientists who designed and launched the probe) are merely average.
Re:Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence by GoToRO on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:30PM (#24983068)
Thank you! now you get it!