News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by zenexer on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:21PM (#24889098)
I know I’m nitpicking, but this just doesn’t add up:

> Nearly half of Google’s search traffic now comes from Apple devices, according to the Justice Department

> The Justice Department, which is asking for a court injunction preventing Google from entering into deals like the one it made with Apple, argues that the arrangement has unfairly helped make Google, which handles 92 percent of the world’s internet searches, the center of consumers’ online lives.

What? Worldwide, iOS market share is peanuts compared to Android. Depending on the report, the exact amount varies pretty widely, but nothing ever seems to report more than 18-ish percent worldwide. macOS is negligible. Meanwhile, Android’s market share is enormous.

Android devices alone—worldwide—could easily account for half of Google’s search traffic, especially when you consider countries like India. But the DOJ wants to argue that:

1. Google handles 92% of global search traffic

2. Half of Google’s traffic comes from Apple devices

If we believe that 92% figure, that places a generous upper limit of Google’s search traffic originating from Apple devices at about 20%, far short of “nearly half.”

Look, I hate the monopolistic nature of search just as much as the next person, but can we please double-check that our numbers actually make sense?

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by heavyset_go on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:26PM (#24889607)
52.4% of the mobile market in the US belongs to iOS[1], and 47% to Android.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by kovek on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:57PM (#24889826)
I’m really confused by what I’m reading on this page. Can someone clarify the different between these two?

Quoting:

> Apple iOS continues to hold its large share of the smartphone operating systems’ market within the United States, claiming more than half of the market in May 2020.

> ...

> Android still the one to catch

> Android, however, still holds the largest share of the United States smartphone operating systems’ market and has done for many year.

So this is about the smartphone operating systems, in the united states. Apple has “more than half of the market”, and Android has “the largest share”. How are both statements possibly true?

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by sandworm101 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:54PM (#24890260)
>> claiming more than half of the market in May 2020.

Market share /= number of devices.

Apple owns the "market", ie the money. Apple owners spend vastly more on their OS (via playstore). Android might be running on vastly more devices, but the people who matter, the rich people with money to spend on camera apps, spend that money via iPhones.

We live in a world where whales matter more than customers. The legions of android users who use their phones to make phonecalls, as internet browsers, and as navigational tools ... they don't matter as much as any single iPhone user who regularly drops a few hundred every month on eye candy iPhone backgrounds.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by kovek on Sunday October 25, 2020 @06:32PM (#24890652)
I see what you mean here, and it might be what the statistics website is claiming. However, it is not clear at all. They use the words "large share of the smartphone operating systems’ market within the United States," and "largest share of the United States smartphone operating systems’ market" when talking about the market share for Apple and for Android, respectively. Sounds like the same metric is being compared.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by heavyset_go on Monday October 26, 2020 @03:25AM (#24893606)
Apparently Apple's App Store is responsible for 3 times as many sales as Google's Play Store[1].

[1] https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2020/01/in-2019...

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by woah on Sunday October 25, 2020 @09:55PM (#24892099)
I don’t think it’s that stark. iPhone has captured the market of people who want to pay for things related to their smartphone by offering a slightly higher end smartphone.

Android users made a choice to prioritize their smartphone less in their financial lives by getting a cheaper device (except for the 5-6 HN commenters who got an Android because of a personal vendetta against the Apple App Store policies).

It stands to reason that the people who decided not to spend money on a smartphone also decide not to spend money on smartphone apps.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by underwater on Sunday October 25, 2020 @10:58PM (#24892458)
Your comment is reading as pretty condescending and judgemental. Not everyone who owns an Android is cheap.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by bryanrasmussen on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:23AM (#24894550)
there's a difference between cheap, thrifty, and not wasteful.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Zenbit_UX on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:36AM (#24895449)
Lol, that's cute.

Sorry to burst your bubble of pretention but the highest end android phones are in another league of price and have been for a long time.

To be fair I won't even bother comparing the Zflip2 foldable because it's more of a proof of concept than something many people buy but it's price tag would make you blush. So, the numbers: the latest and greatest iPhone 12 max is $1549 CAD while Samsung's Note 20 Ultra 512GB is $2029.99 CAD.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by marketingPro on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:36AM (#24895010)
It boggles me to think an Apple user thinks they are getting something high end.

A nerd get an Android, where a teenager will get an iPhone. It's simply a low information consumer buying an overpriced product.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by chillfox on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:20AM (#24892798)
By extension advertising to iPhone users is more valuable as they have more money or are more willing to spend more money.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by marketingPro on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:39AM (#24895027)
Not to mention more susceptible to advertising.

If someone is willing to overpay for an inferior product, they likely will also impulse buy more often than someone who shops and researches phones..

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by skinnymuch on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:34AM (#24895974)
Why write this comment? What possible need was there to insult all iPhone owners?
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by chillfox on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @03:00AM (#24916029)
I disagree about iPhone's being inferior to android phones. While I don't doubt that high (build) quality android phones exist none of the ones I have personally owned qualified (Sony Ericsson, Sony, Samsung). My current iPhone has lasted more than double as long as any of those did before falling apart.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by cbogie on Monday October 26, 2020 @03:18AM (#24893573)
you mean via appstore?
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by 411111111111111 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:13PM (#24889922)
The first number is about sold devices in may, the later is about all devices in use no matter when they were bought
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by hamburglar on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:27PM (#24890033)
off-topic, but if "username checks out" style posts were appropriate here, this would be a good place for one. :D
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by vermilingua on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:29PM (#24890060)
You’re right, they’re not appropriate here.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Someone on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:40PM (#24889252)
Reading https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/doj-google-suit/c21c1..., the missing part seems to be “of mobile device usage, in the USA”. It says:

“In the United States, Apple iOS devices — those running on Apple’s proprietary mobile operating system account for roughly 60 percent of mobile-device usage. Apple’s is a closed ecosystem; Apple does not license iOS to third-party mobile device manufacturers.

Another roughly 40 percent of mobile-device usage comes from devices that use Android, an open-source mobile operating system controlled by Google. Unlike iOS, Android is licensable, which means third-party mobile device manufacturers can use it as the operating system for their devices. All other mobile operating systems, combined account for less than one percent of mobile device usage in the United States.”

(Of course, whether that’s correct is a different question from whether that’s what the DoJ claims, but it doesn’t seem farfetched to me that it is correct, too)

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by mroche on Sunday October 25, 2020 @09:52PM (#24892073)
At least one aggregator of this kind of information has the 60/40 metric as pretty much spot on, going from Sept. 2019 to Sept. 2020.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile-tablet/uni...

Mobile and Mobile/Tablet are pretty much the same, and Tablet only giving Apple a few percentage points advantage further (~65%).

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by CaptArmchair on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:53PM (#24889353)
> But the DOJ wants to argue that

No. That's NOT what the DOJ wants to argue. Yes, the complaint itself does refer to market share, but it doesn't specifically refer to "92 percent of the world's internet searches". In fact, the complaint refers to market share within the United States, since that's geographically relevant to the case. What happens elsewhere isn't. [1]

[1] https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/GOOGLEANTITRUST...

This is what the NYTimes wrote:

> The Justice Department, which is asking for a court injunction preventing Google from entering into deals like the one it made with Apple, argues that the arrangement has unfairly helped make Google, which handles 92 percent of the world’s internet searches, the center of consumers’ online lives.

92 percent links to a report by statcounter.com [2]. That's the NYTimes making a claim about Google's market share and linking to a source.

If you read the sentence even more carefully, you'll see the word "which" appear twice. "Which" grammatically denotes a non-defining clause from the perspective of the writer. It's information that you could remove without altering the core of the sentence: [3]

"The Justice Department argues that the arrangement has unfairly helped make Google the center of consumers’ online lives"

More importantly, "which" is gramatically used from the perspective of the writer to give a bit of non-essential background to the sentence. And so, what is absolutely NOT being said here, is that the DOJ claims that Google holds a 92 percent market share.

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s... [3] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/which-vs-that/

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Despegar on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:38PM (#24889693)
From page 30 of the DoJ filing:

>Over the years, Google has steadily increased its dominant position in general search services. In July 2007, Google estimated its general search services market share at 68 percent. By June 2013, Google estimated that its share in the United States had already increased to 77 percent on computers. By April 2018, Google estimated that its share was 79 percent on computers and 93.5 percent on mobile. More recently, Google has accounted for almost 90 percent of all general search engine queries in the United States, and almost 95 percent of queries on mobile devices. Recent share estimates are in Figures 7 and 8.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by pessimizer on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:23PM (#24889581)
The NYT constantly embellishes like this, it's a really shitty part of its style. If you want to add information, don't infix it within a description of the Justice Department's argument. At least put the editorial in a different paragraph, if not the editorial section.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by CaptArmchair on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:18PM (#24889976)
That sentence is grammatically entirely correct, neither is it misleading. I don't see how it embellishes the core meaning of the phrase.

Is it harder to read with two non-defining clauses? That's something else.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by ocdtrekkie on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:31PM (#24889179)
Pretty sure the "over half" figure refers to traffic in the US, where iOS is around half of mobile devices, unlike the global market where Android has a definite monopoly outside the US.

The DOJ legislates largely based on US figures, but noting Google's global power is hard to ignore completely.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by zenexer on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:47PM (#24889306)
They said “worldwide” for the other figure and failed to specify the region [in the article] for the other. I think you’re right, but it’s still deceptive, and I’m inclined to believe it was deliberate. Even though the DOJ does seem to clarify in the actual filing, it rubs me the wrong way, and the article summarizing the events is misleading.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by asdfasgasdgasdg on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:56PM (#24889374)
If this is what they meant, then the usefulness of the statement is even more questionable. If more than half of mobile devices are iOS, then your prior expectation would be that more than half of traffic would come from those devices.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by sokoloff on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:25PM (#24891083)
Android devices are so cheap that I have many of them, some dedicated to a single purpose (I have an Android “phone” [without service] and a FireHD that are used only for reading data from my cars’ OBD2 ports and another running my sprinkler system interface)

IOS devices are more expensive, so the ones I have actually get used (and most were bought secondhand so don’t contribute to market sales figures). Our household usage and search share is surely 99+% from Apple OSes, while the device share of devices bought new at retail might be only 40% Apple.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by ogre_codes on Sunday October 25, 2020 @09:22PM (#24891899)
> Google handles 92% of global search traffic

The justice department doesn't care who handles search traffic in Cambodia, Canada, or Taiwan. They are only interested in US based search traffic where iOS has 50%+ market share.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by KorematsuFred on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:52PM (#24889787)
> preventing Google from entering into deals like the one it made with Apple,

Be careful what you ask for. If you make such deals illegal, Apple will have to set Google as search engine for FREE thus benefiting Google.

As a non-murican it baffles me that US government will try to hurt its own successful companies in this fashion which smells of incompetence and political vendetta rather than genuine concern for the health of search ecosystem.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by AnthonyMouse on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:43PM (#24891640)
Presumably it would only be Google prevented from entering into such agreements, since nobody else has a dominant market position in search.

The interesting question then would be whether Apple would take somebody else's money and change the default search engine on their devices. Which might net them almost as much money, but might also irritate a lot of their users if the highest bidder isn't as good of a search engine.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by FpUser on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:39PM (#24890130)
Companies like Google are starting to have way too much influence on government. Government does not like it at all so they'll take measures to curb the influence one or the other way.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by crazygringo on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:44PM (#24889283)
Seriously, I think the Justice Department is missing some qualifiers.

I'd assume it's referring to both only US traffic and only mobile traffic.

Because if you make it worldwide or include desktops/laptops, it's laughable.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by pilsetnieks on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:42PM (#24891622)
But the DOJ isn't missing anything, it's the Times that's missing them, as someone (literally named someone) pointed out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24889252
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by sampsonitify on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:11PM (#24889909)
Mac Os X on desktop seems < 20%[1], so hard to imagine how overall it could hit that figure.

[1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st...

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by 1over137 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:30PM (#24889165)
Maybe the USDOJ cares more about US numbers, not worldwide ones? iOS is surely more than 18% in the USA.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by fmajid on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:56PM (#24889821)
They do, and also it makes a better case than worldwide where Google is kneecapped by the Chinese government to benefit Bandung, or Russia where Yandex is a strong competitor.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by fakedang on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:36PM (#24889210)
Not an unreasonable conclusion.

1.) Google handles 92% of global search traffic

2.) extrapolate to the US (since it's likely the same, if not higher) : Google handles 92% of US search traffic

3.) Half of Google's US traffic comes from Apple devices (since Apple controls 60% of the smartphone market in the US).

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by TheMblabla on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:34AM (#24892857)
Not all of google's us traffic is from smartphones though
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by eli on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:49PM (#24889318)
People with iPhones use their phones more than people with Android.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by fmajid on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:55PM (#24889807)
And are a way, way more attractive demographic for advertisers. I knew about the deal, but until the House report I didn’t realize it made up such a high proportion of Apple’s profits (14 to 21%). Knowing Apple, they must be driving a hard bargain.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by xenadu02 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:58PM (#24890305)
I have no knowledge of any of this but the report doesn't either. It states those are estimated numbers culled from the web. AFAIK there is no actual public info on what the dollar amount is (and I certainly don't know what it is).

I do see everyone running with those numbers as if they were fact though. That's the danger of using such made up numbers in the report: everyone else repeats them as if they were fact even when the report says they don't know.

Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by drivingmenuts on Sunday October 25, 2020 @05:27PM (#24890041)
Apple is the new old IBM without all the warmth and personability, but ten times the marketing skills.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by nathanvanfleet on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:24PM (#24891078)
I'm not sure the American DOJ considers web traffic in India
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by viktorcode on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:24PM (#24889593)
You are conflating market share with internet usage share.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by protomyth on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:36AM (#24892866)
Yeah. Go to Walmart and look at the cellphones in green boxes that get sold for non-contract usage. They are all Android and most will be used for messages and calls. They are absolutely horrific to use for web browsing. Maybe in a couple of generations that will change.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by cwp on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:19PM (#24889550)
Is it really that hard to believe that iOS users do more searches than Android users?
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Kiro on Sunday October 25, 2020 @04:31PM (#24889643)
Yes, why try to justify such an obviously incorrect statement? It's clear that the only reasonable explanation is that it is US traffic only where iOS indeed has over 50% market share.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by cortesoft on Sunday October 25, 2020 @06:28PM (#24890612)
I assume since this is a US case, they only care about percentages of US searches.
Re:Apple, Google and a Deal That Controls the Internet by Spooky23 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @03:38PM (#24889228)
Android in the US is different.

iOS really dominates — I’d guess that half of the Android users get pushed by a salesman at a carrier store, who get spiffed by different companies. Many only buy a smartphone because they are unaware flip phones still exist!