The iguana's war on algae is definitely hell for the algae. Is not killing other animals such a great distinction, in the grand scheme of things?
If all the animals were vegetarian and weren't getting preyed on, most of them would die of starvation. (Most birds, rabbits, &c die early -- it's not like people where surviving to adulthood is the norm.) The animals that killed the other animals to have more vegetables to eat would have more offspring and be more likely to survive. Killing others not to eat them but to eat their stuff -- that's war.
The iguana situation is one where there's just not much evolutionary pressure. It doesn't generalize.
Evolution is cruel beyond our comprehension and so it does not have mercy. Today they sit in the sun, their grandchildren can be cannibals eating each other. We have a say, for now.
Not being at the mercy of evolution is an illusion caused by being at the mercy of both genetic and memetic evolution. If we do things that are at odds with either our biological and social adaptation, we tend to not replicate as much as otherwise.
For instance we can chose not to eat or have sex, but that just edits our patterns out of the population as it always has. We can change society such that acts that were adaptive are now maladaptive, but that just changes evolutionary pressures rather than eliminating them. Even as we master evolution it still masters us.
It's like the illusion in orbit that you have escaped gravity, but you're just falling continuously.
In fact placing together memetics and genetics in a single sentence doesn't even compile for me. It's like stamp-collecting and murder. Yes, my whole point is that we are operating on memetic engine and it works wonders.
I'll point out one thing "that just edits our patterns out of the population as it always has", just like not eating or not having sex: being infected by tuberculosis bacteria. By your reasoning developing a vaccine is just silly. Do we even want to rescue any Chopins or Orwells or Kafkas. Vaccine (which is effectively a meme) "just changes evolutionary pressures rather than eliminating them". If it happens, good, if it doesn't happen, no worries? That's the message?
Iguanas surely don't give a fuck about their Chopins.
But they absolutely are the same category. 100%, and always have been. Just look at how mating preference has affected many species, ex: the peacock. "Cultural" pressure preferred men with a colorful booty, and over time genetics conformed. The same is true if the "culture" prefers people who are soft spoken, adversarial, drawn to the color green, or have a funny left ear. If the culture means that people with a certain trait are more successful and thus more likely to reproduce over a sufficient period of time genetics will trend towards producing more individuals like that.
As for the rest of your comment, I keep reading it over and over and I can't figure out what your getting at. Developing a vaccine means more people in my group are likely to survive to reproduce, thus (given sufficient time) evolution will favor those species that can produce vaccines (or not be vulnerable to the disease in the first place).
You seem to be saying that Crocs users have a serious chance to die out in one or two thousand years (after all 30 or 60 generations are peanuts). I'm sure the effect is real. I'm not holding my breath though, because seemingly humans posses another mechanism which can mysteriously mask the trait of i-like-ugly-shoes within just one or two generations. (And with almost no one dying out?)
Just like it didn't take 30-60 generations for the trait of i-hate-suspicious-injections to die out.
I avoided the word "evolution" in hope of achieving understanding at least about the territory if not about the map.
Even if secular people went extinct today, there would be more 30 years from now. Religious communities can produce secular individuals, from which secular communities form that generate secular memes.
They operate on independent planes. Unless a sort of direct genetic disposition to specific ideas can be established, I believe the complexities of genetics and memetics allow for such a broad range of complex interaction that they cannot be correlated so easily.
Now that contraceptives exist, people who choose them and deliberately avoid ever having children will select themselves out of the gene pool. The same goes for people born in religious communities who are skeptical of their religion. The people who remain in those communities will be the ones who have some sort of genetic predisposition to religious experiences. This is already a hypothesis (the God gene [1]).
It may be that as behavior driven by memes versus genes diverge enough, the population naturally falls. That could be the solution to the Fermi paradox, that sentient population growth is limited by the growth of their meme pools, as they diverge in purpose from their gene pools.
Given enough time, every species evolves. Now, the twist is that the human species could alter its own.
Back when Zimbabwe was still Rhodesia, in addition to fighting the Mugabe-lead rebels the Rhodesian military had to routinely step in to stop rival tribes from slaughtering each other. The default state of humanity is tribal warfare, not some beautiful Eden-esque utopia. "Colonialism" wasn't the cause, this is just humanity.
I don't know why people are so keen to deny this. Nature is brutal and yet still beautiful, and I don't see why humanity should consider itself to be special in that regard.
Yes - the world was peaceful until the big bad West came into play. Very bad people!
Lol. The reality is as you lay above. Constantly clashes for resources and land, just as the lives of wild animals are in the present.
Even just watching the birds eating from a limitless supply of seeds this morning, they were fighting and establishing an order.
The only exceptions were species that were total badasses (bears, pumas), extremely prolific (deer), or a combination of badass and prolific (wolves, bison).
Also note that the pre-Contact Aztecs weren't exactly nice people. I believe it was Neal Stephenson who observed that one measure of how much the Aztecs sucked was that when the Spanish Inquisition took over, things actually became more humane.
Species can survive humans if (1) the humans can't wipe them out (badass, prolific) or (2) humans don't want to wipe them out (tasty/useful, invisible, cute).
Colonialism isn't the cause, but colonialism, powered by weapons and transportation technology and the concept of manifest destiny, massively increased the scope and scale of human exploitation of other humans.
Who said colonialism didn't happen in Europe? Scotland and Ireland were arguably where the English prototyped their methods of subjugating countries.
> Do you consider 'colonialism' to be different to any other form of human expansion done since time began?
Yes. Colonialism as a systematic state supported effort to subjugate other nations and overtake their resources is very different than migration, for example.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/new-study-o...
If you know more than another commenter, that's great, but in that case share some of what you know so the rest of us can learn. Responding to bad information with good information improves this place; just putting others down makes it worse.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
But the comment above us is probably right, it would seem that the iguanas have been "doing nothing" for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or millions of years. Meanwhile humans have "accomplished a lot" in the past 10,000 years lets say, at the expense of many many many other things.
Some organism would have realized that hunting down other stuff is easier and more nutritious than chewing on seaweed.
The fact is a certain brainy old-world ape has taken over the biosphere. Because evolution gave them the biological tools to do so. That's what evolution does.
We'd have to propose something different from evolution, to get a different result.
https://www.vulture.com/2017/02/planet-earth-ii-iguana-snake...
Looks like they have a predator to me.
You might have a point about war and in general consumption being a 'wired-in' behaviour. Then again assuming we have something like intelligence and free will, we should be able to choose to override some primitive behaviour.
"What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world. The paragon of animals. And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?"
However, I believe Homo sapiens is already pretty domesticated. (neotenate, potentially herbivorous, able to breed in captivity, pleasant disposition, not prone to panic, willing to live in large hierarchically dominated herds)
Dogs are far, far more aggressive than their wild counterparts. Their wild counterparts, in general, are not territorial against non-canids, and pretty much only attack if they are hungry.
Wolves have evolved to optimize for their own survival, and although they are powerful predators, they are risk averse as well, and will not go after prey that they are unsure of -- you would be too if you had to use your strength to kill for every single meal or starve to death if injured.
Dogs have been bred to fearlessly protect and attack the owner at all costs, including putting their own survival on the line, which is very much NOT how wolves think.
I'd much rather be in wolf or coyote territory than a place with stray dogs.
My favorite metaphor is to think of humanity as gasoline. Left alone it explodes, but put in an engine it does useful work. Society and its laws are the engine that channels destructive force into useful output.
Seaweed and algae are organisms as well. Plants don't want to be killed and eaten no more than animals do. I think Attenborough or BBC's documentary on plants showed the lengths plants go through to avoid being eaten and communicating danger to other plants.
> I am a firm believer that all of the war and crime you see in the world is driven by some biological wiring that most of us continental organism possess, from ants to humans.
It's not just continental, it happens in the oceans as well. It's not just animals, microbes/bacteria/etc also kill and eat. It's even happening all over your body right now. It's been happening millions of years before the dinosaurs.
> If we had all evolved to be more like iguanas, I wonder if society would have made more (or less!) technological and societal progress, given that a lot of technological advancements come from the demands of war--
Probably less. The only reason galapagos iguanas exist is because they are isolated from competition and are adapted to a specific environment. Humans are more general while the galapagos iguana is specialized. It's like the difference between a computer and a calculator.
The entire universe is chaos and continual destruction and creation.
By ignoring the innate human nature to struggle and fight you are not removing it or making it go away. You are merely making it more likely that your society will inevitably fall to another that is more aggressive, assertive, or war like. In all of history decedent societies continually fall to more barbaric and less advanced societies.
It still needs to kill other organisms to eat. The only organisms that don't kill something else to gain energy are photosynthesizers and decomposers like fungi that consume dead organic matter.
That is a very fatalist view that denies humans the agency we clearly have. We are obviously capable of devising social norms that go against our "biological wiring", whatever that even is. A simple proof is how varied social norms can be -- with respect to things like marriage/family, work, death, religion, etc. -- across different cultures in space and time.
We have the power, collectively, to end the horrible practices that lead to war, exploitation, imprisonment/torture, climate change, and whatever else. These are not an inevitability. The idea that it is inevitable is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy that allows it to continue without any challenge.
We have shown in many ways that we have risen above the determinism of many biological processes. We should realise that things can be different and change ourselves to be a part of that difference.
"Pray the gay away."
Lobotomies.
When you stop thinking about "how do I sell this software to other people so I can buy the things I need", and instead move to a model of everybody building software that can help humans obtain the things they need, I think the world changes.
Open source is not immune to false roads and mud.
It's important to separate what we feel is productive work, from what will actually produce the most work on aggregate across society.
I think we can build a world where those who feel they need downward or lateral pressure to get things done can have this, but not at the expense of everyone else.
I meant slacking off as endless debates, running in circles and dropping things.
The art is the fine balance between progress and debt. oss doesn't guarantee that.
Perhaps a more merciful way to lose would be helpful.
If we were all galapagos iguanas, well, then one of us iguanas will find a way to swim or otherwise get to a larger landmass. Or find a way to live in the ocean.
Then, one of us would find a way to breed faster. After all, there is infinite seaweed and algae available to me.
Eventually then, this adapted iguana will be so widespread, even if it remains docile and somehow does not evolve some territorial behaviour for mating purposes (unlikely), that, docile and all, it eats all the seaweed.
Some seaweed will likely mutate into something that is harder to eat for the iguana, or poisons them and iguanas learn not to eat that (why? Well, there are a ton of iguanas - whatever iguana just mutates their genes into recognizing the poisonous one by taste or smell and won't eat it, will survive where the ones without the mutation will start dying off in droves).
And now we have our war back.
It's just between iguanas and the seaweed, which is now in an arms race: The iguanas adapt to deal with the poison, the seaweed adapts to come up with new poisons or otherwise make themselves harder to eat. The rules have changed: There are so many iguanas, that if you are easy to eat by an iguana, you, as a seaweed, are just not going to survive, because there are so many.
Or, if the seaweed does not manage to be an equal aggressor in this fight, then something else happens: First massive, MASSIVE die-outs of iguanas due to starvation, and then eventually, aggressive behaviour between iguanas: If I manage to find a stretch of beach with a bunch of seaweed, and I just had some kids? Well, I can just stay docile. Or, I adapt to be aggressive, I chase off other (docile) iguanas hungry and on the lookout for seaweed, and thus ensure that my children survive whilst theirs die of starvation.
War is inevitable, unless the system grows into 'acceptance', a self-balanced status quo where opportunities to expand exist but for whatever reason a part of the ecosystem just decides not to do this. For example, what if the iguana's somehow have a break built in and do not adapt. It's that or find a lifeform that requires literally zero resources.
The problem is, given that this is an utopic view where life is great and nothing needs to change and there are no external pressures to adapt, why would you invent anything? Until some external force shows up and changes things, life will continue stable forever, with iguanas doing iguana things and seaweed doing seaweed things.
Heinlein's principle is that this can only hold if you are literally the only life in the entire universe (or all life is like this), because if not, one day one of the ecosystems that decided to 'war' and grow will obliterate you. They don't play by the same rules.
Hehe, well, if humans were able to survive off of sunlight alone, then the only reason to kill something would be "for fun", or in other words, the result of what we would call a mental illness.
I wonder if there has ever been an Galapagos iguana vs Galapagos iguana murder. I don't even think they possess the physical capability to murder each other, like, their mouths and hands don't generate enough energy to pierce skin or constrict blood flow or deliver blunt force trauma.
If iguanas were able to survive on sunlight alone, eventually they would hit carrying capacity of the place in which they live.
Were living with the reality of that, as much as I'd also like it to not be the case.
You'll see that on certain Galapagos islands, where no natural predators exist for the iguana, the iguana is completely docile to all other organisms around it. What's even cooler is that the iguana also only eats seaweed and algae, which means it does not need to kill other animals to survive. It has developed evolutionary adaptations to subsist on this diet as well, such as nasal glands that remove excess harmful salt from their bodies.
I am a firm believer that all of the war and crime you see in the world is driven by some biological wiring that most of us continental organism possess, from ants to humans.
If we had all evolved to be more like iguanas, I wonder if society would have made more (or less!) technological and societal progress, given that a lot of technological advancements come from the demands of war--
but war is not a necessary condition for technological advancement now is it?
Long live the Galapagos iguana!