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Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @04:54PM (#24394591)
It doesn't really surprise me much that lactase persistence should be so strongly selected for in a relatively short period of time. Cows and other ungulates possess a rather magical ability to turn something that can't be digested by humans (cellulose) into something that can (milk). Opening up the huge caloric and nutrient resource of cellulose to humans in a relatively replenishable way had to be a giant benefit to those who could digest milk.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AlotOfReading on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:05PM (#24394663)
Lactase persistence isn't the only (or even first) way to convert inedible flora into food. For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history. If you absolutely insist on dairy though, the genes for lactase persistence post-date dairying by a few millennia and many people who rely primarily on dairy today still lack the genes, like most Mongolians. They've adapted different production methods and gut microbiota to take care of the issues.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by pan69 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @06:15PM (#24395087)
> For one, you can simply eat the cows

It could be more resource intensive to get a new cow each time rather than milk the same cow over and over for a longer period of time.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by GuB-42 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:05PM (#24395356)
Not denying it but in order for a cow to produce milk, it has to give birth to a calf every year. So you are getting new cows as a byproduct.

Today, male calves are usually separated from their mother early and slaughtered for their meat, while females can be used to replenish stock. But if you prefer you can slaughter them later for more meat and less milk.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by dalbasal on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:01AM (#24397875)
Look at modern, traditional pastoralist cultures. Most rely on dairy for staple protein. Very few animals are kept for meat alone, in a traditional economic context. Most require several uses (plowing, transport, textiles, dairy, meat, currency) to justify their care.

Some cultures even outlaw eating beef, and most slaughter mostly when they don't have enough feed or for special occasions.

Dairy is absolutely essential to the nutritional economy of most pastoralist cultures that we know about. As you say, lactose persistence is not an absolute barrier... but I think this sort of evidence suggests that dairy is a very significant part of human history. Pastoralism with or without milk is a different beast.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by bluGill on Monday September 07, 2020 @01:54AM (#24396931)
You get milk every day in a reasonable quantity. Before refrigeration killing a cow meant inviting the whole town to a feast at your house. Smaller animals can be eaten by one family before it spoils, but not a cow.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by adrianN on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:26AM (#24397057)
Salting, drying and various other methods for preserving meat have been known for a long time.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by rrobukef on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:39AM (#24397419)
Yes, even with preserving there is too much meat. DDG says one cow has about 250 kg of meat. This is enough to feed a family for over a year.

There is also enough edible meat that cannot be preserved: the head, some organs. These are prepared immediately, hence the feast for the village.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by irrational on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:02AM (#24397884)
A modern family with two kids or an agrarian family with a ton of kids? Plus the agrarian family is doing so much manual labor that they can probably eat the modern family under the table.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by rsj_hn on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:54AM (#24397503)
sure, so 400 families can support a population that kills a cow per day, eats some of the meat in the family and sells the rest of the meat.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by olau on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:36AM (#24397715)
How much land would those 400 families need to feed their cows?

I think most prehistoric settlements were small. Around where I live, perhaps 5-20 houses.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by ttoinou on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:26AM (#24398344)
> Fun Fact: the word for "capital" derives from "cattle"

"cheptel" (french) / cattle / capital seem to derive from "caput" / "capita" latin for head(s)

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by rsj_hn on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:12PM (#24402369)
For the etymology, capital today can mean everything from the capital city of Spain is madrid, to a "capital crime", a capital column, etc. I refer you to the second meaning here:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Capital

Since we are talking about neolithic cattle culture, the word does not come from Latin but from the PIE root "kaput" meaning "head", as in counting heads of cattle or the chief (principal) part of a loan as opposed to the interest paid, which is the secondary part.

The word "Cattle" also comes from "kaput".

Other words coming from "kaput" are "chapter", "chief", "caudillo".

My source for this is the AMAZING BOOK "A History of Interest Rates", by Sidney Homer, which is available on Amazon Kindle and is highly recommended for anyone interested in financial history.

Here is S.H.:

"Cattle breeding has supplied us with many financial terms used in later money economies. For example, there is our own word capital and our term pecuniary, from pecus, meaning a “flock” in Latin. Sumerians used the word mas for calves and for interest. The Egyptian term ms, meaning interest, is derived from the verb msj, which means “to give birth.” Early Greeks, in fact, valued their precious metals in terms of cattle. In the Odyssey one of the suitors promised to bring Ulysses a contribution “of bronze and gold to the value of twenty oxen.”

Cattle probably comprised the first true productive assets or capital of tribes or individuals. Ownership of cattle determined the social position of individuals and families and still does in parts of Africa and, indeed, in parts of the United States. Surplus labor could be stored and retained in the form of cattle. "

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by ttoinou on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @07:19AM (#24419769)
caput, kaput, that's what I'm saying
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by rsj_hn on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @03:40PM (#24425021)
Yeah, I should have said "both capital and cattle come from the same PIE root, originally used in a financial sense when referring to heads of cattle".
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by rsj_hn on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:57AM (#24398194)
pre-historic peoples would travel with their cattle -- their assets were the cattle themselves, not the houses. That doesn't mean they wandered around lost, you would have places you'd go to at different times of year, and may even set up some wells and more permanent structures around those places for you to stay in, but the cattle business was one of always being on the move.

Fun Fact: the word for "capital" derives from "cattle". Cattle was the first form of capital that was accumulated in the neolithic era. It would grow (bear interest), people would hoard it, so you had cattle-inequality, etc. This continued even into the bronze age

From Genesis 13

"So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him. Abram had become very wealthy in livestock and in silver and gold.

From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier and where he had first built an altar. There Abram called on the name of the Lord.

Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents. But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great that they were not able to stay together. And quarreling arose between Abram’s herders and Lot’s."

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by smabie on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:19AM (#24397029)
It's relatively easy to preserve meat by making jerky or through fermentation. Cultures have known about these methods for a long long time.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by watwut on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:01AM (#24398209)
> Not denying it but in order for a cow to produce milk, it has to give birth to a calf every year.

Just once, not every year. The cow have to be pregnant to start making the milk, but if you keep milking the cow, it will keep making the milk. The cow however does not have to have calf every year.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AdrianB1 on Monday September 07, 2020 @07:08AM (#24398542)
Not true, a cow starts to make milk not when it becomes pregnant, but on delivery. The milk production declines in time and stops completely about the time the cow is pregnant again.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by scns on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:15AM (#24397968)
In conventional agriculture, cows whose milkproduction declines get slaughtered, even when pregnant with a developed fetus inside.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by hinkley on Sunday September 06, 2020 @06:56PM (#24395301)
Milk production is also a continuum of data samples over the life of the animal. Eating the animal is one data sample and you can’t duplicate the animal after collecting the data.

Selecting for milk production would be a lot more accurate than selecting for meat tastiness, longevity or even, to an lesser extent, health.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by simcop2387 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:29PM (#24396182)
Actually we select for both depending on the line of the stock and have been doing so for a rather long time. You do lose the animal after killing it of course but we have a huge amount data from cattle breeding charts that lets a branch be trimmed if there's some fault with it that will damage the genetic tree.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by hinkley on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:27PM (#24396386)
You can’t use the lens of modern agriculture and data collection to look at the birth and growth of animal husbandry.

We have enough now that the conversation isn’t about if we can afford to eat our cows but how fast we can eat them. The top of this thread was discussing how we got into milk harvesting so broadly when so few have the genes for it. It was more efficient for people handing down knowledge through oral tradition.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by solstice on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:06PM (#24395912)
I can't decide whether that first para is satire or not
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by sangnoir on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:32PM (#24396189)
You could also harvest and consume the blood[1], without having to kill any cattle.

1. https://www.atlasobscura.com/foods/cow-blood-kenya-maasai

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by kaesar14 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:43PM (#24396225)
This must be more dangerous disease transmission wise?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by sangnoir on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:09AM (#24396982)
If you choose to consume the blood raw, then yes, it can be a vector for pathogens. However, most pastoralist societies know how to keep their herds healthy.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by eru on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:04AM (#24397896)
That's for the vector from cow to human. But cutting into your cow also makes it more likely for your cow to catch something, doesn't it?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by scns on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:20AM (#24398004)
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AniseAbyss on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:40AM (#24398109)
Europe doesn't have the huge steppes that North America and North Asia had for unlimited and ever replenishing cattle.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Retric on Sunday September 06, 2020 @06:15PM (#24395088)
Milk is vastly more efficient than directly eating cows. It’s the same reason eggs are cheaper than eating chickens, compounded by an even longer lifespan.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AlotOfReading on Sunday September 06, 2020 @06:40PM (#24395212)
The comparison isn't between milk and not-milk. As I mentioned previously, you can eat dairy without lactase persistence.

Secondly, lactation is a pretty different energy calculus from eggs. The calories in it can be used to grow the baby animal it's intended for. That would still be less efficient than direct consumption, but probably not as substantially with ancient animals.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by restalis on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:18AM (#24398297)
"For one, you can simply eat the cows, the way it was done for most of human history."

Besides what sibling comments already mentioned, eating the livestock directly meant having to herd larger groups of animals. One hypothesis that comes to mind that explains how lactase persistence might spread so fast was the enabling auto-sufficiency on small family-level herding that helped with survival. The primary target of plagues and war were the large settlements, and I imagine it was very useful to be able to live on small and thus low profile herd that roamed away in the wilderness, far away from the population-limiting events, or at least sitting them out somewhere close by but safe. This is harder to do with large herds, which for one consume the grassing stock faster, require more active movement, and thus confers inferior stealthy means of existence that is so important in face of wars of that time.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by nyolfen on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:44PM (#24396233)
mongolians are also atypically short for a population with a tradition of dairying, though — those with lactase persistence are among the tallest in the world thanks to the massive caloric surplus reducing environmental selection against height in times of scarcity
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by paganel on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:36AM (#24397406)
> those with lactase persistence are among the tallest in the world thanks to the massive caloric surplus

That doesn't explain men from Bosnia-Herzegovina and from the former Yugoslavia, generally speaking. Even Wikipedia [1] mentions that area as being above Nordic countries like Sweden when it comes to average male height.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Leherenn on Monday September 07, 2020 @07:31AM (#24398658)
Are they supposed to be lactose intolerant?

According to this link posted below [1], Montenegro and Albania are in the top 10 for milk consumption per capita.

[1] http://chartsbin.com/view/1491

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AdrianB1 on Monday September 07, 2020 @07:12AM (#24398565)
I am the tallest by far in my extended family and also the only one without lactase persistence. My father is the tallest in his generation and also the only without lactase persistence. Not statistically significant, but worth mentioning.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by cozos on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:10PM (#24396314)
that's an interesting theory ive never heard before. Is it generally accepted that Northern Europeans are taller because their society is less prone to famine?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AlotOfReading on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:25PM (#24396375)
It's relatively uncontroversial that contemporary European populations are among the tallest in the world broadly due to caloric surplus and generally good nutrition.

However it also worth noting that if we go back farther than the past century or so, it was non-european populations that were among the tallest in the world. That would be populations like the Sioux, Athabascans, and Maori. This kind of points to how big a factor social, economic and political context has on population metrics like height. Moreover, certain diets and populations simply make for shorter people. Disentangling all the effects is complicated.

For the data, I'm half-remembering a table from a paper I read years ago. Ourworldindata has a very similar table with pretty reasonable citations, so it checks out:

https://ourworldindata.org/human-height#how-does-environment...

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by econcon on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @06:58AM (#24407189)
Or we can speculate the the societies where there is more freedom are taller.

It could also be sexual selection as this stature change is too fast and usually the environment difference takes several hundred generations to show difference.

The timeline is so small I'd argue it's actually free society enabling people to chase their sexual imperitive and this sexual selection is resulting in taller population, not nutrition.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by hbarka on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:52AM (#24398168)
Yes, like the divergence between South vs North Korea in just a few generations.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by treeman79 on Monday September 07, 2020 @10:22AM (#24399587)
Or Japanese. Older ww2 Japanese are short. Their kids are a head above them.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by missing_paren on Sunday September 06, 2020 @08:16PM (#24395733)
> the way it was done for most of human history

Humans were not hunting for most of their history [1]

[1] "The human adaptations to meat eating: a reappraisal" Claude Marcel Hladik, Patrick Pasquet https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00545795/document

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AlotOfReading on Sunday September 06, 2020 @08:51PM (#24395868)
The paper you're linking does not support the conclusion you're drawing and I'd encourage you to read it more carefully. Modern humans are omnivores, which means their diet included both animal and plant products, though in different proportions at different times and places.

Moreover, the suggestion that humans started eating meat recently is patently ridiculous in the face of the material record. The nicest way I can put this is to strongly recommend spending some time with Wikipedia. A good starting point would be the stone tools page, in particular the section on the Acheulean industry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_tool#Mode_II:_The_Acheul...

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by msla on Sunday September 06, 2020 @09:57PM (#24396077)
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150728-chimps-nearly-wiped-...

Chimps not only hunt, they over-hunt:

> The apes have killed and eaten so many red colobus monkeys, the population has fallen by 89% and they are having to find new prey

https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/10-things-chimpanzees-eat...

Don't believe me and the BBC? How about Jane Goodall?

> One of the earliest and most significant discoveries made by Jane Goodall was that chimpanzees hunt for and eat meat.

Bonobos hunt at the same rate as chimps:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/04/190430091846.h...

And, again, early humans hunted:

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/evidence-f...

> The diet of the earliest hominins was probably somewhat similar to the diet of modern chimpanzees: omnivorous, including large quantities of fruit, leaves, flowers, bark, insects and meat (e.g., Andrews & Martin 1991; Milton 1999; Watts 2008). Tooth morphology and dental microwear studies suggest that the diet of some hominins may have included hard food items such as seeds and nuts, and underground storage organs (USOs) such as roots and tubers (Jolly 1970; Peters & O'Brien 1981; Teaford & Ungar 2000; Luca et al. 2010). By at least 2.6 million years ago, a remarkable expansion in this diet started to occur; some hominins began incorporating meat and marrow from small to very large animals into their diet.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by chrisco255 on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:56AM (#24397187)
Humans and their ancestors have been actively hunting for millions of years. We invented fire, spears, and the hand axe (hand held stone tools) for hunting. Not to mention the bow, which is more than 50K years old. The earliest known human settlements are built from mammoth bone. The earliest paintings (more than 30,000 year old cave paintings) depict hunting scenes and the fossilized bones of animals are contained on site.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by lordnacho on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:04PM (#24394658)
If it's so powerful, why did it not take over the rest of the world, or at least the rest of Eurasia? You'd think just a few people having kids with foreign populations would make the gene conquer the whole planet? They had cows in other places as well, right?

One guess might be that winters in Europe were harsher than other population centres (China, India, Middle East), and periodic famines meant that some people would just scrape enough calories from milk. You hear stories about people trying everything when they're out of food, maybe trying the cow's milk was a sort of last resort that worked for some lucky people. Then again, you'd think they'd have eaten the cow first.

The article does say it happened too fast to be from natural drift or population turnover, but I'm not sure what turnover means. Is that replacement say from a conquering tribe?

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Spooky23 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:28PM (#24395495)
Milk isn’t dairy. Because it’s a liability in many parts of the world without abundant fodder or cold climate. Milk can be dangerous without refrigeration in hours.

Dairy is much more than milk. You can consume cheese, yogurt, butter and many other products where the process of making the dairy product eliminates lactose. Think about things like cooking oil — an impossible thing to manufacture efficiently if you lack the resources to grow oil crops and process them. With diary, you just make butter, which is trivial to do.

Domesticated cows and dairy is a pretty miraculous thing. It’s a shame that the excesses and poor practices around industrialized agriculture and economic policy has made it a ethical problem for some people.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by LargoLasskhyfv on Monday September 07, 2020 @12:44AM (#24396678)
Let it ferment. Just add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:10AM (#24397562)
Lard was the "cooking oil" of choice before modern industrial production shifted to seed oils.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by eru on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:07AM (#24397916)
And it's still great.

(Though to be sure, lard was the cooking fat of choice in much but not all of the world.)

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by bad_user on Monday September 07, 2020 @09:24AM (#24399249)
Lard was also very expensive, typically inaccessible to the layman, who preferred to sell all animal products they could get their hands on.

Fat was inaccessible for cooking on a day to day basis, for anyone but the rich, until the introduction of seed oils.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by scns on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:25AM (#24398023)
I prefer purified butter for cooking, milkprotein burns so fast.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Rexxar on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:41PM (#24394895)
> If it's so powerful, why did it not take over the rest of the world.

Time. For going from 1/10 000 000 to 25% of the population in 300 generations (7500 years), you need to have a gene that give you 5% more offsprings at each generation.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by iguy on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:28AM (#24397362)
And distance. Not so much gene flow across the Mediterranean until we got good at sailing.

And climate. Milk was an advantage against other food sources available at the time in northern Europe, but this wasn't necessarily true elsewhere.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by restalis on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:39AM (#24398401)
Climate also reflects on the level of available grass that the herders had to take into account when deciding where to move. Europe receives smaller quantities of precipitation as one goes from west to east, and then Europe's lush vegetation transitions into steppes and harsher climate beyond Volga region (Europe-Asia border). It must have been a tough call to decide to go eastward, and from what history tells us, that herders chose to migrate westward, not the other way around.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by gostsamo on Monday September 07, 2020 @12:09AM (#24396567)
Europe, throughout most of its history, was a corner of the world. It was a final destination for tribes that were misplaced by overpopulation, decease, and famine from the Middle East and Central Asia.

My theory is that in order for this mutation to spread it must give a cutting edge advantage in an equal environment. However, the migration pressure was toward Europe, not out of it. What's more, other populations already had their ways to utilize derry products and the advantage might not have been so crucial. Therefore, the gene spread had been dependent mostly on internal migration and local populations mixing together.

Of course, this theory has its weaknesses. It does not account for the effects of Alexander the Great, the Silk Road, the Roman empire or the depopulation of Eastern Europe through slave trade during the middle ages. At the same time, most of these factors would open trade routes and cultural exchange but not the large scale migrations necessary for a significant genetic mix. Slavery might offer something, but it was recent and slaves are usually the most disadvantaged group in a society which does not help their genes being promoted.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by grawprog on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:11PM (#24394710)
>You hear stories about people trying everything when they're out of food, maybe trying the cow's milk was a sort of last resort that worked for some lucky people. Then again, you'd think they'd have eaten the cow first.

Maybe it was more desperation from waiting for cheese or something? I'm guessing if they kept milk cattle and didn't eat it they had a reason?

Cheese seems like something that cows would be used for. It's easy to make, it comes from curdled cream, it stores for long periods, and it's calorie dense.

Maybe milk drinking came at a time of extreme hunger where people just drank it directly instead of waiting?

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by srtjstjsj on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:07PM (#24395370)
Cheese has about the same lactose as milk, doesn't it?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by rwh86 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:11PM (#24395399)
Hard cheeses contain almost no lactose; it's consumed by bacteria during the maturation process.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by njarboe on Sunday September 06, 2020 @08:38PM (#24395818)
A way to store a surplus food that contains high protean and fat is another huge benefit of dairy. Hard cheeses can be stored for years in the right conditions and these conditions are achievable for ancient people (caves).
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by eru on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:09AM (#24397924)
And if done right, the cheese becomes tastier as it ages.

Not as important today, but more important back then: aging your cheese also concentrates the salt. Salty foods are tasty.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by njarboe on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:06PM (#24409749)
Good point. Back then salt was valuable in places just short distances from the ocean. Humans need salt, especially when doing hard physical labor, sweating all day.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by grawprog on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:43PM (#24395577)
rwh86 is correct. That was part of my reasoning. I was thinking aged fermented cheeses not fresh cheeses, which do have more lactose.

Aged fermented cheese is what I was figuring they would have made, because of the lactose issues. These take several months to years to make. I was lumping in higher lactose things like milk, soft unripened cheeses and yogurts together as 'high lactose desperation foods' as arguably, all were likely consumed for the same reasons early on.

I would guess the lower lactose fermented cheeses would have been favoured earlier though. Humans have a history of fermentation and the utility of aged cheese is kind of hard to beat as far as such things go regarding fat and calorie content and preservability.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by undersuit on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:14PM (#24394729)
Eurasia focused more on mare's milk and China and other rice dominated agricultures had no room for large concentrations of herds.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by gruez on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:27PM (#24395491)
> China and other rice dominated agricultures had no room for large concentrations of herds.

Yeah it was discussed recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373939

tl;dr: rice was so efficient that there was no point in raising cattle

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by scythe on Sunday September 06, 2020 @06:37PM (#24395194)
>If it's so powerful, why did it not take over the rest of the world, or at least the rest of Eurasia? You'd think just a few people having kids with foreign populations would make the gene conquer the whole planet? They had cows in other places as well, right?

It's cooler in Europe. Food stays better longer there. For example the daily mean temperature in Prague in July is 20 C, with a low of 15 C, so you could easily keep a cellar below that. Cheese will keep for a while. Plus, there's often a nearby mountain range with a convenient glacier:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_trade#Pre-19th_century_met...

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Der_Einzige on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:46PM (#24394919)
Uhh, they just drank different milk. Ox milk, goat milk, etc.

Cattle are not always found in other places.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by nkurz on Sunday September 06, 2020 @06:59PM (#24395320)
You might be thinking of a different animal. An ox isn't a good choice as an milking animal, as it typically is a castrated male bovine. If female, it would at least produce milk, but then it would just be a cow used for plowing, and would have the same milk as a dairy cow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox. Maybe you mean a water buffalo?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by AlotOfReading on Sunday September 06, 2020 @05:58PM (#24394988)
Lactose is present in all mammal milks to some degree and thus lactase persistence can have some benefits regardless of the specific animal the milk comes from.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by scns on Monday September 07, 2020 @05:30AM (#24398055)
Goats milk aminoprofile is closer to human milk. Cows milk is 90/10 casein/wheyprotein, goats milk is 60/40 or 40/60 IIRC.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by User23 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @08:22PM (#24395759)
Bronze Age Europeans aren’t the ancestors of modern day Europeans. Thanks to modern genetic research we know that they were largely exterminated by invaders a few thousand years ago, at least on the yDNA lineages.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by ema on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:34AM (#24397394)
Didn't the bronce age end like three thousand years ago? It's my understanding that by that time the Indo-Europeans were already well established. Besides while they contributed a large fraction of the ancestry of contemporary Europeans a significant fraction of the ancestry is still from the middle eastern farmers which conquered Europe before them. Even if you only look at the Y chromosome, there is still quite a bit none R1 floating around.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by iguy on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:21AM (#24397327)
It's true that they were replaced, almost completely in northern Europe. But the claim of TFA is that these skeletons date from after this Indo-European / Yamnaya arrival, and hence that it disproves the theory that lactase persistence arrived with them.

Linguistically, I think we know they had cows but not agriculture, before migrating to Europe & India. (IIRC "cow" comes from PIE?) Which gave credence to the idea that they may have been lactose-tolerant. TFA is one study, so we will presumably eventually see whether this holds up with more data.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by bobbylarrybobby on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:26PM (#24396380)
Do you know where modern day Europeans came from? Who were these invaders?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Bayart on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:00AM (#24398204)
A variable ancestry of post-ice age hunter-gatherers, Neolithic Anatolian farmers and steppe invaders (ie. Indo-Europeans). The ratio varies depending on areas, but that mix is specifically European.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by Acrobatic_Road on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:24AM (#24397052)
Indo Europeans from pontic steppe and farmers from Anatolia. Northern europeans have more ancestry in the prior.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by NegativeLatency on Monday September 07, 2020 @01:27AM (#24396800)
Possibly the celts and prior Indo-Europeans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by xyzzyz on Monday September 07, 2020 @01:18AM (#24396771)
You can find answers to these questions in recent David Reich’s book.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by burtonator on Sunday September 06, 2020 @10:24PM (#24396162)
One of the biggest misconceptions of evolution is that it's a slow and gradual process. Under the right conditions it can happen VERY fast.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by akiselev on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:29AM (#24397659)
Very fast. The canonical example is the peppered moth (Biston betularia) [1] in the UK changing color from white to black and back to white in the last two hundred years. Coal power plants during the industrial revolution covered the surrounding areas in soot and darkened the white lichen covering those trees, which meant that the white moths were more visible to predators. Once clean air regulations and technological improvements eliminated the soot, the gene that turned them black became a liability and the population was once again taken over by the white moths.

The specific mutation event was traced to around 1819 [2] and by the turn of the century, the white variant was all but gone around industrialized cities (someone even wrote Darwin about it in the 1870s). Starting in the 50s and 60s, the distribution began to reverse once the air started to get cleaner and now we're back to a largely white moth population.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17951

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by tomp on Monday September 07, 2020 @07:25AM (#24398627)
Evolution should be measured in generations, not years. According to Wikipedia, the peppered moth has 1 generation per year; in humans, it's probably like 1 per 20 years. So 50 years moth-time is still 1000 years human-time. Still quite fast though.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by JacobAldridge on Monday September 07, 2020 @09:18PM (#24404363)
“Punctuated Equilibrium” - long periods of stability, and then short periods of great change.

I find it interesting to see the effect in other fields in my life - for example, I’ve been tracking net worth each month for almost a decade, and it follows a similar pattern of slow (or no) growth ... and then big jumps.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by 29athrowaway on Monday September 07, 2020 @01:10AM (#24396752)
There are bacteria that can eat nylon, a man-made molecule. Nylon was invented in 1935 and these bacteria were discovered in 1975. The enzymes used by these bacteria only work on nylon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

Bacteria have much shorter generations and this facilitates rapid evolution.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by bonoboTP on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:39PM (#24395551)
Why couldn't we evolve the ability to digest cellulose directly like cows, instead of going through cows?

My guess: grazing takes extremely long and so we let cows do the boring job of grazing outside all day then we quickly slurp up whe harvested calories in just a few glasses of milk.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by readams on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:42PM (#24395569)
Cows have to go through quite a lot to make it happen, with a multistage digestion process, multiple stomachs, regurgitation and additional chewing of food, the right microbiome. In short it's not an easy trait to just "evolve". Lactose tolerance on the other hand is just retaining a trait into adulthood (lactase production) usually lost after weaning.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by restalis on Monday September 07, 2020 @10:24AM (#24399596)
"Cows have to go through quite a lot to make it happen, with a multistage digestion process, multiple stomachs, regurgitation and additional chewing of food, the right microbiome. In short it's not an easy trait to just «evolve»."

The complexity of digestive apparatus found in Bovidae family and other ruminant mammals is just an optimization. Herbivore monogastric mammals like horses consume cellulose too. There even isn't that necessary for the mammal to be (specialized) herbivore in order have the cellulose digesting ability, as pigs clearly demonstrate. Some extensions in our menu limits are always welcomed. Digesting lactose as adults was nice, but digesting cellulose, even if not that pleasant or efficient, would have been even nicer, as when things went historically bad, it would had came in handy if we could literally just run to the forest for more than to just hide.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by as-j on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:44PM (#24395588)
Why wouldn’t we?? Have you seen a cow? :)

An enzyme to break down milk seems to be such an easier adaptation compared to a whole series of stomach, which are basically a series of fermenters.

Having raised goats the size of their rumens to body is pretty amazing.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by bonoboTP on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:50PM (#24395619)
Couldn't we have invented some way of doing all that cow-stomach stuff in a pot? Like cooking, grinding, fermenting etc, similar to how we turn other inedible plant stuff like wheat into yummy stuff like bread?
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by jaggederest on Sunday September 06, 2020 @08:22PM (#24395757)
You can convert cellulose into glucose but it takes things like this (special cultured bacteria, extremely processed cellulose, and an ultrafilter to remove glucose to drive the reaction): https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/bit.26022080...

Or strong acids and 190°C over a catalyst.

Cellulose is remarkably strong, especially with lignin in the structure too. We're lucky anything can digest it at all.

Which brings me to mycology, probably the best way to extract energy from cellulose for humans. Sterilize, inoculate, keep moist, and harvest a significant percentage of the source material as good carbohydrates and protein.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by bluGill on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:04AM (#24396964)
My understanding is cows don't digest cellulose either. They have those stomachs to provide an environment for bacteria that can to live. Cows then digest that bacteria.

Which is digestion of course, but it isn't that cows can do it. Our large intestine does the same thing but it isn't anywhere near big enough to get a significant amount of energy from cellulose.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by pvaldes on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:51PM (#24403616)
Seeing cows as bacteria eaters is a challenging but powerful image. Really clever point.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by pvaldes on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:48PM (#24403593)
We don't have the right kind of tooth to graze
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by raxxorrax on Monday September 07, 2020 @03:44AM (#24397441)
I think the actual genetic factors for lactose intolerance are very rare. It probably has more to do with gut flora and consumption.

I am slightly intolerant and have symptoms if I stuff myself with raw milk. Other than that it is no problem. I have a friend with the genetic condition and even he drinks milk. He does get problem quickly, but not if he drinks coffee with some milk or yogurt.

I think all people develop an intolerance with age naturally, but people that consume much milk will have that process slowed down. I think the genetic factors can just accelerate the process that is responsible to induce intolerance.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by seszett on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:01AM (#24397529)
> I think the actual genetic factors for lactose intolerance are very rare. It probably has more to do with gut flora and consumption.

Not really, lactose is basically converted straight into glucose by lactase, and if you don't produce lactase the lactose is going to be digested by a variety of bacteria and turned into a whole host of products (some of them usable by the body) but mostly gas. There isn't really a way to avoid that, even though gut flora can be more or less efficient and allow non-lactase-producers to mostly digest milk, it's never as efficient as using lactase.

> I think all people develop an intolerance with age naturally

No, it's a well-researched thing, some populations of humans keep producing lactase after their childhood and some don't. It's not related to the milk consumption of an individual, either.

Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by cannedslime on Monday September 07, 2020 @07:04AM (#24398523)
There is fats in milk, the energy is not exclusively lactose.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by KuhlMensch on Monday September 07, 2020 @02:20PM (#24401348)
Minor note: The puzzlement around gene-selection isn't, "Why so fast?" but "Why so fast and LATE (between 3000 and 1500 years ago)?"
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by throwaway5938 on Monday September 07, 2020 @06:46AM (#24398436)
Note that there's still no evidence the ability to digest lactose is an actual adaptation as opposed to some allele that got accidentally fixed in some populations due to genetic drift.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by tus88 on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:54PM (#24395635)
When you put it like that I understand why Indians worship cows.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by serf on Sunday September 06, 2020 @11:43PM (#24396454)
Hindu folk revere cows, but not all folk from India are Hindu.
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by jagannathtech on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @03:11AM (#24405919)
Well atleast their ancestors used to be
Re:Warrior skeletons reveal Bronze Age Europeans couldn’t dr... by dalbasal on Monday September 07, 2020 @04:50AM (#24397796)
Maybe not surprising biologically, considering the role of nutrition as a limiting factor on human (and most organisms) population. Say an ancient culture developed a lifestyle heavily fishing relient. If the resources (fish) were plentiful, it's not hard to imagine fish becoming a staple diet fast and subsequent adaptations to the nutritional pros and cons emerging within just a few generations.

OTOH, milk requires domestication of mammals. For milk to be a staple (as it is among many existing pastoralist cultures), processing and preservation techniques (yoghurt, cheese, etc) need to be developed. It's (IMO) a pretty complex assortment of dependant cultural and biological adaptations in both humans and animals.

Genetic evidence like this suggests that the adaptations spread fast. It also suggests a substantial role played by pastoralist cultures in neolithic and bronze age prehistory.

Neolithic history is tends to emphasize grain agriculture. These people left more artifacts. They left large settlements (eg Jericho) for us to dig up. They became urban "civilizations." Common, orthodox interpretation (eg the common marxist narrative) focuses on these a lot. Complex relationships between economics & social structure are inferred. etc.

Pastoralism gets a lot less attention. They left few artifacts, fewer settlements. They weren't urban, making them less interesting to most 19th and 20th century historians. Yet, we have lots of evidence that they were both many and significant.

Some of the earliest histories we have (Sumerian, 1st Dynasty Egyptian) suggests all sorts of contact, cultural exchange and conflict with large populations of pastoralists. Ancient historians attributed many innovations in weapons (eg chariots, compound bows) and other technological advancements (eg wheels) to pastoralist cultures.

While speculative, I'd also suggest that the earliest "nations" may have been pastoralists in the Yuval Noah Harari sense of the term. This also makes them the first civilizations in the same sense. They were also likely to have been innovators and originators of long distance trade and communication.

None of that is proved by the spread of lactose tolerance, but it does suggest that pastoralism was a very significant lifestyle in the lead up to pre classical cultures.