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Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by jonplackett on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:51PM (#24296425)
This must be scary reading for Intel, still battling to make anything decent at 10nm (which I know is more like 7nm TSMC, but still, this is another 2 steps on from their 7).

It's a bit worrying how all this innovation, with the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of completely cornering the market, is all in one country, that is very close to another country, that doesn't want it to be its own country.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by calcifer on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:14AM (#24303232)
> all in one country, that is very close to another country, that doesn't want it to be its own country.

That's actually good news for Taiwan. TSMC is already very important for everyone. If it becomes the only player in high-end chip making, there is a good chance western countries won't let China invade Taiwan.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by pk_kinetic on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:34AM (#24303327)
Why would China invade Taiwan when it can just buy all of its engineers?
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by calcifer on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:53AM (#24303426)
Because China thinks that territory belongs to them, their motivation has nothing to do with TSMC.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by davedx on Thursday August 27, 2020 @03:12PM (#24297447)
TSM will build a factory in the USA: https://time.com/5837274/tsm-chip-plant-arizona/
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by ETHisso2017 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:10PM (#24298096)
which is only 5nm, only entering production in 2023, and only 20,000 wafers / month vs their gigafabs which are orders of magnitude larger
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by m00x on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:11PM (#24299705)
It's a good start. They need to move carefully while balancing their assets.

They also need to train the new employees in the US, it'll take time to get great chip engineers there, and get Taiwanese volunteers to move to the US.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by amelius on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:26AM (#24302970)
Isn't IC fabrication mostly automated? So wouldn't most jobs be in research?
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by jiggawatts on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:46AM (#24303079)
It is automated in the sense that silicon goes in one end, and ideally no human being touches it until it comes out of the other end in a finished package. It is not at all automated in the sense that there is a ton of maintenance work on the production line.

I love reading through random tech journals, the type with highly industry-specific ads in them, as an insight into the worlds other people live in. Jobs and every day problems I will never experience first-hand.

One of the single most eye-popping experiences like that was an ad in a chip industry quarterly I found somewhere that was breathlessly advertising that their latest tool (a machine the size of a garage) now had an MTBF of "just" 27 hours instead of the previous 2-3 hours, a massive tenfold improvement! Cutting edge stuff, apparently, compared to the competition. The really impressive part apparently was that by cutting down on maintenance time, it could be "online" for up to 90% of the time instead of just 30-50% of the time or somesuch. Apparently that's impressively good in this space.

The rest of the ad (and much of the journal) kept going on and on (and on!) about how their tool has easy-swap parts, can keep the vacuum during repair, has tool-less panels, quick access, no need for heavy lifting, etc...

I don't think I'm exaggerating too much by saying that nearly 50% of all technical development in the fab industry is about reducing the maintenance effort, and hence staffing costs.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by amelius on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:24AM (#24303276)
I can only wonder why one would use ads in an industry which is so specialized and has so few players. Wouldn't it be more efficient to just talk to these people?
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by skissane on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:38AM (#24303356)
I think they want to do both.

Put ads and positive press in trade journals you know your customers read. It increases the percentage of their minds you occupy.

In-person contact does that too. They aren't mutually exclusive strategies.

A lot of this equipment is so expensive, that the cost of a few trade journal ads is negligible compared to the amount of revenue involved.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by throwaway4good on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:30AM (#24301646)
Why would they do that?
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by oseityphelysiol on Friday August 28, 2020 @02:42AM (#24301999)
The moving part? Probably because of better salaries. I don't know much about Taiwan and how nationalistic they are, but for most of the world working in the US is seen as the career endgame (or means to get there).

If the question was why would Intel invest into making the chips in US - from recent news it seems like US understands how dependent it is on other nations for silicon manufacturing, which poses many questions. The biggest one seems to be national security, which looking from the side is the only factor that gets thing done in US.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by vaxman on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:25AM (#24302257)
> I don't know much about Taiwan and how nationalistic they are

You will want to read up on The Republic of Formosa, WWII and the history of Taiwan at some point. There are enough Chinese nationals on this website to downvote us all but suffice to say, it is widely regarded at the federal level that Taiwan could come under siege by the Chinese Communist Party at anytime and be used as a bargaining chip with the West along with Hong Kong, the DPRK armistice and Western financial interests in Macau. We need to begin evacuating Hong Kong and Taiwan immediately back to the USA --in fact, China just seized a boat of people fleeing Hong Kong last night, the first time they have done that (and on what charges, nobody knows, not even the Chief of Police of Hong Kong). As the President said today, we are going to break it off cold with China and as you expand your knowledge of the situation, you will realize that China claims Taiwan as part of its territory and the people of Taiwan do not.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by m00x on Saturday August 29, 2020 @04:01PM (#24318992)
Hong Kong was legally handed over to China, but they had a 50(?) year handover period which they're breaking. Taiwan was never China's. A bunch of Chinese nationals went to China during the cultural revolution, and China would love to have Taiwan, but Taiwanese people are basically Chinese refugees and do not want that. China has been posturing to conquer them for years. My wife's parents (Taiwanese) immigrated to Canada during one of the periods of high tension between the countries. China was flying fighter jets over Taipei as an intimidation tactic.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by baybal2 on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:05AM (#24302149)
> which is only 5nm, only entering production in 2023, and only 20,000 wafers / month vs their gigafabs which are orders of magnitude larger

And there is a good chance that it may never be, just like Foxconns Wisconsin facility.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by CarbyAu on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:50PM (#24300002)
The US invaded for oil.

What will it do for chip production?

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by breatheoften on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:38PM (#24300562)
Lose its competitive advantage, slowly consolidate remaining assets into private hands with borderless migration capacity, elect a government composed entirely of conman, and five to ten years from now, begin losing every violent international confrontation that it tries to start?
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by CarbyAu on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:37PM (#24301125)
I agree with everything but...the losing of every violent international confrontation.

Maybe you'd lose against other modern, well integrated forces. But there is a lot of the world whereby forts, trenches, gun emplacements are still their best. And they are simply butter to the modern military knife.

Barring major catastrophe,(ww3, another american civil war, a pandemic that kills large % of younger population etc) it will take far more than 10 years to decline past that point.

The Iraq Military Exercise (I can't call that a war.) is a clear example of that.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by raducu on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:17AM (#24302206)
What war could the US start without the usual and immediate involvement of Russia, China or Iran -- I mean, except for a war with its own citizens that is.

The US lost the Afghanistan war, is slowly losing Irak to Iran, lost all face and is getting humiliated in Syria, failed at preventing Russia impose its presidential candidate, is alienating its european allies (see the Iran sanctions debacle), is supporting the savage Saudi Arabia -- who is losing the war in Yemen.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by bioipbiop on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:08AM (#24302856)
The US won Afghanistan handily, they just didn’t know what to do with it when they had it. I think America would have been better off placing Afghanistan under a military governor for a few years while they built up the country’s institutions.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by raducu on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:48AM (#24305532)
Most powers make the same false assumptions that they "easily won" an insurgency/guerrilla war.

No you didn't win anything, you temporarily held territory, you wasted enormous resources, and were in fact beaten by goat herders in the end.

Without putting the whole country in a concentration camp and re-educating for 20 years and without providing an alternative economic model, a central administration in Afghanistan is irrelevant wether you do it for "a few year" or decades.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by bioipbiop on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:41PM (#24312153)
I think you’re conflating Afghanistan with Vietnam. America never fully committed to Afghanistan as they did with Vietnam. From the very outset they tried to do it on the cheap by relying heavily on the northern alliance. Subsequent to the invasion, America was far more interested in pursuing the Iraq war, so Afghanistan quickly became a backwater.

This meant that America became heavily reliant on local war lords (some of whom had dealings with the Taliban) to ensure security and maintain order. This undermined the government they were trying to build in Kabul and contributed to a culture of corruption. None of which endeared the common afghan to their newly formed institutions. The Taliban exploited these weaknesses with classic insurgency tactics and gradually took territory from the weak central authorities.

This was all entirely avoidable, America just didn’t stay focused on the mission.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by shpeedy on Friday August 28, 2020 @06:40AM (#24303368)
IMHO, you should replace RF with Turkey. RF was unable to grab Ukraine or Georgia, which were completely unprepared to war.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by raducu on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:57AM (#24305644)
RF completely achieved its objectives in Ukraine, Georgia and Syria, without putting a "we have won" show.

Sure, there are sanctions, because Russia actually annexed Crimea.

Russia knows very well that teritory grabbing in itself is pointless in the 21th century, Russia grabbed enough territory to nullify any chance Ukraine or Georgia will join NATO.

Don't get me wrong, as an eastern european, I hate what Russia stands for, but militarily and geostrategiclly, they know very well what they are doing, because they cannot aford not to, unlike the USA.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by craftinator on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:42PM (#24300584)
When's the last time we didn't lose every violent international confrontation we were involved in? Also, yeah, the rest of that is both incredibly depressing, and of such a high plausibility that I can't see another way of it turning out. Pretty much like the US in Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by sgillen on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:45PM (#24300898)
Idk the US “won” in Iraq very quickly (toppled the head of state, dissolved the official military). It was the occupation and rebuilding efforts afterwards that it failed at IMO.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by raducu on Friday August 28, 2020 @03:09AM (#24302171)
The US victory was a textbook 19th century victory, but a 21th century catastrophic failure/pyrrhic victory -- in Irak and Afghanistan.

You cannot win a war if you fail to reach your strategic objectives -- then it's not a war, but a bar brawl you "won".

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by sgillen on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:28AM (#24302974)
The Iraq/Afghan wars were a mess, but the strategic objectives aren't even entirely known and some of them were achieved. The Iraq war at least:

1. Secured strategic access to Iraq's oil resources. 2. Establish a permanent military presence in the region. 3. Removed the the de facto government.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by raducu on Monday August 31, 2020 @12:14PM (#24332872)
I was talking about the rational objectives of the US as a state, if we agree that the US is a captured state by criminals with unknown strategic objectives or contrary to the US as a country, then, all bets are off.

1. The US was in no danger of remaining without oil, the price of oil skyrocketed after the US invasion, and the "access" was certainly not worth trillions of dollars that the war cost, not to US as a whole.

2. The US already had a military presence in Saudi Arabia, and without the vicious circle of violence it itself caused, the US had no reason to maintain a permanent military presence in Irak.

Just see the recent Soleimani debacle -- the US is one such debacle away from being kicked out of Irak after blowing those trillions, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, helping spawn Daesh, causing economic devastation in Irak and the region.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by rbanffy on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:03PM (#24311872)
True. I don't think establishing a functional government that would enable Iraq to become a regional power was in the cards. The US wanted oil.
Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by raducu on Monday August 31, 2020 @01:56PM (#24334097)
But the US could have just bought the oil on the open markets.

In 2008, the US imported 600.000 barrels of oil per day from Irak -- that's when oil peaked at ~150 -- but if the whole year the oil stayed at 150$/barrel, and the US just stole it without paying Irak anything, that's just 32 billion USD.

It would take the US 60 years to recuperate all the money it would have spent on Irak war if it was to steal all the oil from Irak at the levels of 2008, or 380 years at todays import levels and valuations (assuming the oil was war booty -- it is not).

There is no way the war was started over oil, that would be beyond dumb.

My personal theory is it was just the industrial-military oligarchs who started the war as to forever saddle the US taxpayer.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by rbanffy on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @02:47PM (#24345315)
> My personal theory is it was just the industrial-military oligarchs who started the war as to forever saddle the US taxpayer.

That, and US construction and oil companies.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by skissane on Friday August 28, 2020 @07:03AM (#24303476)
The US used to have tens of thousands of troops in Taiwan. The US military formally withdrew in 1979, although it has quietly retained small numbers of US military personnel in Taiwan ever since, responsible for training and liaison with Taiwanese military forces, but not enough to be militarily significant.

A quick, unexpected, massive deployment of significant US military assets to Taiwan would put Beijing in a very difficult position. Either Beijing attacks, and starts a shooting war with the US – which would do massive damage to the Chinese economy; or else, Beijing doesn't and loses a lot of face in the process.

It would be a rather risky, high stakes gamble, but one in which the US might come out in front.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by jonplackett on Friday August 28, 2020 @08:53AM (#24304242)
And what happens to the US (and world) economy if there's a war? And how would that war end without taking the world with it?

I think COVID has shown Chinese society/government/people are much better equipped for big shocks than the US is so if it's a protracted thing they would have a huge advantage.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by ckocagil on Friday August 28, 2020 @10:43AM (#24305456)
You're saying unexpected but China has likely simulated this situation a million times and prepared a plan. I would bet China is constantly monitoring for such deployment and will react long before the troops set foot on Taiwan. AFAIK nearby island are already heavily militarized.

Also I'm not sure how people of Taiwan would react to such deployment. Neither Taiwan nor China recognize each other as a separate country. They both claim to be the righteous government to one unified China.

Re:TSMC and Graphcore Prepare for AI Acceleration on 3nm by gerash on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:53PM (#24299566)
IIUC graph core chips are very different from Intel chips so idk if their manufacturing can be compared. Or is it that chip manufacturing does not depend on what chip is being manufactured?