News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by caymanjim on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:02PM (#24138557)
I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you don't own your time, people will take it from you.

I'm perhaps speaking from a place of privilege, but it's not that hard to achieve. I've been doing this my whole life, from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career.

Sit on the couch. Take a vacation. Quit your job. Say no to overtime always and forever. Blow off weekends often. Nothing is as important as others will tell you it is. You're going to die some day and when you're on your death bed you won't regret the times you did nothing.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by horns4lyfe on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:06PM (#24139262)
I could not agree more. I'm pretty early in my software career after a few years as a military officer, and if that job taught me one thing, it's that NOTHING at work is as important as you think it is. Looking back on those times, even in a job where lives are sometimes on the line, I can't believe how seriously I took some things and how much more fun I could have had. It's a disappointing lesson to have to learn in hindsight.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by sudeepj on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:14AM (#24139876)
Highly recommend to watch the clip from the movie Office Space (only 54 sec long) [1]

The guy with the moustache is a blue collar worker and the other one is white collar worker (actually in Tech/IT)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lmW2tZP2kU

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by fzil on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:09AM (#24140114)
That’s gotta be one of my favourite movies of all time. This and the printer killing scene are hilarious.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by tayo42 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:23AM (#24140179)
Amusing that so much of that movie is still relatable 20 years later to a whole new generation of workers. Except maybe the scene where he kicks down the cubicle, if I need to be in an office give me a cubicle or something lol
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by eldavido on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:14AM (#24140455)
Yes. I'm genuinely surprised how timeless this is.

You watch it today, in 2020, and it's shocking that it was made 20 years ago. This tells me that Judge and the other writers managed to latch on to some very timeless things.

Not sure what they are, but they nailed it.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by alexbanks on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:07AM (#24140721)
They latched onto the meaninglessness that is office work, combined with the obvious passive aggression and lack of respect that big companies have for their employees
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mercer on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:31AM (#24142669)
It's fascinating how good Mike Judge is at 'nailing' a variety of experiences.

Office Space is pitch-perfect, but then he went and created Silicon Valley and King of the Hill too. I can't personally confirm that King of the Hill is accurate, but I've heard it is. Silicon Valley just nails it though, and it is far more specific than the Office Space type stuff.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by dack on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:05PM (#24139577)
i still remember the time (early in my career) i was summoned to jury duty and tried to register an "undue hardship" with the judge because i had a project deadline coming up.

i genuinely thought it was that important, but looking back it was really not a big deal at all (and the judge knew it) :)

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by kamaal on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:37PM (#24139732)
One level of enlightenment is when you understand things can be done later at your convenience.

Another level of enlightenment is when you understand somethings don't have to be done at all.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by jorgekong on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:25AM (#24139925)
thank you, that's a great and pithy comment
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by krick on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:58AM (#24140078)
It's not like spending your time on jury duty is in any way better than spending it on work (or pretty much everything, for that matter).
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by Godel_unicode on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:17AM (#24140150)
You don't think doing your part to guarantee your fellow citizens get their (in the US at least) constitutionally guaranteed right to a jury trial is "worth it"?
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by dunefox on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:48AM (#24140939)
According to this thread: no, it's not nearly as important as your own time. They can always get someone else to fill in.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by russh on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:11PM (#24147095)
If only there was a way to do that without being treated with a general low-grade contempt.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by gonzo41 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:28AM (#24139939)
Remember those late night ironing and polishing things. The few the brave. Ahh the best of times.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by benhurmarcel on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:36AM (#24141179)
40h/week with 3 weeks off/year isn't anything out of the ordinary. If anything it's quite a bit more work time than most European workers.

Taking months between jobs and going to 4 days/week is more uncommon though.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by ThePadawan on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:59AM (#24141980)
My own experience as a Software Engineer in Switzerland:

- A lot of companies are ok with 80% (most often that means 4 days of full time work). Some aren't, but especially towards more experienced roles, it's not out of the ordinary at all.

- 40h is actually somewhat rarer. I've been interviewing recently and lots of smaller companies think it's a point of pride to have 45h or 43h weeks. When you point out to them that this 12.5% rise in hours should also come with a 12.5% pay rise, they are baffled how you would come to that conclusion.

- 4wk vacation is the mandatory minimum. 5wk is nice and often available.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by allenu on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:29PM (#24138736)
I like your attitude. How, if I may ask, did you end up with your current philosophy? Was it through past experiences where people did take your time and you gave in?

I love the idea of taking lots of time off, but on a personal level I have a lot of guilt surrounding that. I know it's not rational since ultimately it's my life, but it's still something I need to work on to get over. If you have tips on changing my mindset surrounding this, I'd love to hear it.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by gerdesj on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:55PM (#24138911)
caymanjim is unlikely to answer. The poor thing is knackered out from typing their post.

I think that they might have been a little disingenuous. Their post was far too long and properly typed out to be from a real sloth.

Fibber.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mettamage on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:44AM (#24139997)
I identify with his post. I always had a rebellious streak when it comes to people judging me. In return, I don’t judge other people myself. It also saves a lot of energy :)

That’s how I don’t feel guilty. I am not doing anything and you can do whatever you want in life too.

I find it tough to achieve though. I am currently at 4 days per week but would like to be at 3.5 days, that’s my optimum (lower than 3 days and I will go insane of not exercising my mind).

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by perfunctory on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:28AM (#24140837)
> lower than 3 days and I will go insane of not exercising my mind

It's not like paid work is the only place where you can exercise your mind

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mettamage on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:32AM (#24142226)
I agree but I find it the most practical place. If I can’t exercise my mind, then there’s nothing for me at work other than obtaining an income (no SF salary here so no financial independence possible).
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by 6510 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:17PM (#24144971)
I do the same only I exercise the body at work.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mettamage on Saturday August 15, 2020 @07:20PM (#24173308)
Nice one!

Fair enough, I thought about doing that too. I chose for the mind, but IMO the body is a good option as well, especially because if you choose the right profession (i.e. light to medium exercise), it probably means you'll live longer.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by dunefox on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:57AM (#24140999)
If you need the workplace to 'exercise your mind' then I don't know what to tell you... all your free time gained this way is useless then if you don't know how to spend it.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mettamage on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:27AM (#24142188)
One needs to work to survive. The benefit of work for me is to exercise my mind. Other forms are available but do not aid survival. So assuming everything else is equal, I should use work to exercise my mind.

The issue with work is that it is constrained to one thing (web dev in my case). I can use my free time to do whatever (relax or other exercises such as meditation).

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by ta1234567890 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:12AM (#24140127)
Can't answer for caymanjim. Personally, I now work about 2-5 hours per week, mostly just meeting some people (don't have to do anything besides talking to them).

What I realized early in my professional career was that position trumps everything. For example, if you are born into a great enough position, you are set for life, pretty much regardless of anything else. Then I figured out (slowly over time through trial and error), which positions I could move to from the one I was in, where I could either: a) do less work for same pay, or b) get more pay for same work. Although a lot of times switching positions required intense "extra" work.

In the end however, it seems to mostly just been a lot of luck in the way things played out, together with an intense desire to, in the long term, reduce my work-related load/responsibilities.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by tmnvix on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:09AM (#24141349)
I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, what do you talk about for those 2-5 hours?
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by ta1234567890 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:05PM (#24144830)
Depends on who I meet with. But mostly it's about financials, sales, planning, legal issues and team building (usually talking about personal stuff and building rapport as a group). Sometimes it's about product and programming.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by chii on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:38PM (#24139422)
> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career.

i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by bmcn2020 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:45AM (#24140005)
highly agree

> I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more.

Definitely speaking from a place of privilege. Single moms living in poverty don't have the luxury to care for her mental health. She probably can't take even a few days off, voluntarily, much rather months or years.

Let me ask you (caymanjim), in the months and years you take off, how do you subsist? The average American has, what, less than $500 in savings?

Privilege colors your views on reality, and I would love for all of us to get there, but let's not imagine that this "isn't hard to do". It is. It really is.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by eldavido on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:19AM (#24140476)
This sentiment expresses something I'm starting to see a lot in our discourse. I call it "third-party outrage", where you (bystander) get mad because you think some "aggressor" did something bad to some hypothetical "victim".

What cracks me up is that oftentimes, the victims don't even care or don't get nearly as mad as the bystandars. Same story with tech workers getting mad about how Amazon pays their employees. Is there any real harm being done here?

So I gotta wonder, why are the bystanders more mad than the alleged "victims" themselves? Do you realize how screwed up this is?

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by luckylion on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:26AM (#24140821)
I don't think it's outrage, it's more so pointing out that "if you're poor and can't afford to renew the lease, just take a million or two out of your savings account and boom, you're wealthy" isn't good advice because it requires having a savings account with at least a few million in it.

And for anyone in that situation: how many of them are too poor to pay rent?

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by 6510 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:12PM (#24144902)
It only makes sense to do something if you expect results. The victim doesn't get mad because there is no point to it. (or they just feel that way) They just have to accept whatever is coming at them. (or they just feel that way) Are there labor laws if you cant afford legal action?
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by chii on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:27AM (#24140530)
Would you still make the same statements if the topic was about whether the word 'blacklist' should be replaced?
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mirko22 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:59AM (#24141009)
Yes :) but that ship has sailed.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by bmcn2020 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:52AM (#24140964)
> So I gotta wonder, why are the bystanders more mad than the alleged "victims" themselves? Do you realize how screwed up this is?

Can you clarify, cause I'm not sure what issue you're addressing? Am I a "bystander" in this, or an "alleged victim"?

As a "bystander," you think, therefore, that I am not poor/in poverty? What gave you that idea?

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mirko22 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:58AM (#24141004)
Being single mom has often nothing to do with privilege but rather choices in life, at least if you are divorced... I think that was the point.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by bmcn2020 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:20AM (#24142142)
I disagree. The main point, at last my initial point, was that there are people in situations in life -- however they got to those situations -- that absolutely cannot afford that kind of "sloth" lifestyle.

And, sociologically speaking, sometimes single motherhood is connected to privilege, or a lack thereof.

[dead]
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by dang on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:28PM (#24145847)
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by reddog on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:43PM (#24139460)
There is a leisure class at both ends of the economic spectrum.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mrec on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:53PM (#24139510)
That's an interesting observation, although it does depend on the benefits landscape where you live.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by flamble on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:04PM (#24139570)
I love the idea of benefits conceived of as a landscape. You have the slough of despond, the scorched desert, the arctic wasteland, the jagged windswept hellscape, etc.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by 6510 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:13PM (#24144922)
The old pit
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by tomdell on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:40PM (#24139434)
If it was sufficiently long ago, which it sounds like it was, they could. Minimum wage would be significantly higher now if it had kept pace with inflation and cost of living increases over the last few decades.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by doliveira on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:30PM (#24139699)
Yeah, minimum wage jobs mostly won't expect you to work beyond your normal periods and days, but they definitely won't want you working less than that.

The weirdest part, though, is voluntary taking several months or even a year between jobs. Now that is proper privilege.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by mirko22 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:03AM (#24141031)
Why though? You don't know in what conditions he spends that time. He might live in a way you would not like to live without a job so you think of not working a privilege.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by kwhitefoot on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:44AM (#24141219)
> Why though?

Probably because we assume that when he wants a job he can get one, and one that pays for all the time of as well, at the drop of a hat. But it's not so for someone without in demand skills.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by TeMPOraL on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:04AM (#24141676)
Because one of the big concerns of almost everyone who isn't in high demand is gaps in CV. For some reason it seems that - and it's definitely believed that - employers will look very unfavorably at you if your history of employment isn't continuous.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by doliveira on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:39AM (#24141864)
Not just that, being able to afford months and months without salary is quite a privilege, even on relatively high wages like a developer's. Not to mention if you can do that while on minimum wage jobs, you probably aren't a major source of income for the family.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by rv-de on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:43AM (#24141211)
sounds like me except for the 3 weeks vacation in a bad year. I guess you are living in a country with an employees-are-slaves-work-culture. In Germany five weeks is the minimum and six the norm. _maybe_ understanding your situation through my on experience I'd question your priviligedness, though, as it appears to me like you are (also) carrying a considerate psychological burden that you need to deal with. at the end of the day this is what more or less forced me to take time off between jobs. I needed that to bring back some peace and balance to my mind.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by rikroots on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:06AM (#24141684)
I decided, 3 weeks into my first full-time job (as a lab technician) that I profoundly disagreed with the concept of the capitalist work ethic. The idea that a person's life had meaning only if they stayed in work - often boring, tedious work - until their retirement day, after which they could be kicked onto the old-person's scrapheap to do fun stuff for a few years (if they were lucky) until dementia took their dignity and their memories and their final breath ... I hate that concept.

I have, over the years, walked out of well-paying, high responsibility jobs (Civil Service, IT) because the stupidity of the petty empire building and office politics became too much to bear. Sometimes I've been in a situation where I had saved up enough 'rainy-day' money to give myself time off to do other stuff - finally get a degree, write some books, work on an open-source project or even, yes, spend a couple of weeks staring at a wall while I daydreamed. When I've had no money, I've taken welfare cheques, or worked in menial zero-hour-contract manual labour jobs to keep food on the table, or started fresh in an entirely different service/industry.

Things I've learned:

1. Know how much money you need to survive with a roof over your head and food on the table. If you're earning more than that, you're in a good place.

2. Your job title and the numbers printed on your payslip do not determine who you are. Measure your worth in the relationships you have with your friends, family and work colleagues. Measure it in terms of your mental wellbeing.

3. There is no such thing as 'idleness'.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by ksolanki on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:32AM (#24140553)
I am not sure. My biggest driver has been to be in my death bed and having done nothing, having made no difference to the world. So I keep trying.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by tetris11 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:40AM (#24140584)
I like to think that friends and family will look on my works and say "he was a creative man", but deep down I know that those words will only come from a few who already know how to appreciate it.

Therefore, I work to please that faceless few. I am happy with this, because it is nice to be appreciated, but at the same time I cannot help but feel that I am not building something meaningful in my more direct social circles.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by sporkologist on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:11PM (#24139288)
I totally agree. Three days has been the max for me, as far as mental health agendas. Far more productive with 15 - 20 hours work, at the most. My employer Walmart, for some reason, isn't as conscious as many, they're telling me that my cart-collecting days are over.

> Blow off weekends often.

Yes definitely agree, best for health outcomes.

Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by nine_k on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:28AM (#24139941)
What does your spouse say about your effectively freed time? Your kids?
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by 082349872349872 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:22AM (#24140499)
I bet they appreciate the attention.
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by dunefox on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:58AM (#24141006)
Why would they get a say in that?
Re:Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant... by nine_k on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:58PM (#24146160)
If they don't, why one would call them their family?