News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Firefox 79 by shantara on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:24PM (#23977397)
Android version comes with a completely new design, and empty "What's new" section in Google Play gave no indication it's going be such a major change.

Even more importantly, it has overridden data collection preferences after the update. Check "Settings > Data collection". I had to disable "Marketing data" and "Experiments" toggles. Not cool!

Re:Firefox 79 by jackbravo on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:19PM (#23980230)
I did get a: A major firfox update is coming! notification on my android phone that linked to https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-android-upgrade...
Re:Firefox 79 by coldpie on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:45PM (#23977707)
I suspect that approximately no one reads that "What's new" section, and they know it. Even Google just leaves it with whatever happened to be in the field in summer of 2018 when they stopped updating it.
Re:Firefox 79 by smichel17 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:35PM (#23978431)
Maybe nobody reads it when they have automatic updates enabled, but I read the changelogs for every app that has them on F-Droid, even though their update flow is not optimized for this. For projects without changelogs, I'll sometimes check the commit messages.

Quality of changelogs has a big impact on how trustworthy I perceive a project to be. Releasing new versions without a (meaningful) changelog says that you expect blind trust from your users; that you expect them to update anyway regardless of the changelog content; or that you don't consider them able to evaluate whether updating is in their best interest -- in summary, "we know what's best for our users better than they do." Whether or not that's true, the attitude strikes me as vaguely paternalistic. It feels to me that a developer who thinks so little of their users would be more inclined to try and pull a fast one.

As an example, Signal has recently stopped writing changelogs for many of their beta releases, and it has affected my trust in them, and willingness to install said updates.

Let me be very clear: I am NOT saying lack of changelogs makes a developer less trustworthy. I AM talking about how they make me feel about them. I'm also well aware that this is an indirect measurement, so there's some variability and Goodhart's law applies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law).

Re:Firefox 79 by coldpie on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:43PM (#23978535)
FWIW I agree with you entirely, but I suspect we fit comfortably into the "approximately no one" set that I mentioned :)
Re:Firefox 79 by qwertygnu on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:49PM (#23978601)
Add me in that category. If the company/developer doesn't care enough to put one or two sentences about what's changing, they lose a portion of my trust. Even the annoying "bug fixes and performance enhancements" message is better than nothing. But the "don't worry about what's changing, just keep our app on autoupdate!" message is worse than nothing.
Re:Firefox 79 by qwertox on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:52PM (#23980581)
Google should lead by example, yet their "What's New" for Gmail and other apps just contains

WHAT'S NEW

• Bug fixes and performance improvements.

Re:Firefox 79 by artificial on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:46PM (#23979275)
As someone who isn't that familiar with app store guidelines. Is it acceptable to link to the change log on the website?
Re:Firefox 79 by Multicomp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:12PM (#23981238)
Add me as well. Even just an automated list of commits would be better than nothing
Re:Firefox 79 by Aachen on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:43AM (#23984036)
Same here; indeed
Re:Firefox 79 by untog on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:29PM (#23979717)
I think OP's point is that it's a very small category and one HN users probably self-select for.
Re:Firefox 79 by artificial on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:45PM (#23979264)
"We've smashed more bugs and tidied up a few things to make this release even more awesome. Update to the latest to enjoy the best Blablah!"

Actual updates: Version number bump. In my experience outside of the Big Tech releases the most egregious offenders seem to be Credit and Banking Apps with auto expiration. I loathe that feature, it's bitten me in low connectivity areas.

Re:Firefox 79 by TeMPOraL on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:57PM (#23978701)
I do, and I cringe at the weasel-worded disinformation that usually ends up being put there. "We've fixed some defects and improved performance". Yeah, right. Running the updated app provides ample evidence to the contrary.

And then the vendors (and the security people) claim that automatic updates are fundamental, because otherwise people wouldn't install them. But maybe, just maybe, people don't want to install updates because they're being force-fed them, with no information about what to expect, and half of the time the update makes the experience worse.

The road to a better user/vendor interaction starts with providing meaningful changelogs and dropping the paternalistic attitude about updates.

Re:Firefox 79 by skinkestek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:01PM (#23979452)
Mostly agree. Here is a minor nitpick:

> dropping the paternalistic attitude about updates.

Now that we are trying to treat everyone equally, shouldn't we find a better word instead of blaming it all on the dads? ;-)

At least were I came from I cannot remember this attitude come from my dad.

Re:Firefox 79 by ajzinsbwbs on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:59PM (#23981122)
Good point. It’s usually me trying to convince dad to update software, not the other way around.
Re:Firefox 79 by brigandish on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:10PM (#23983207)
He only identified as your dad. Really, your mum was running things.
Re:Firefox 79 by skinkestek on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:46AM (#23984309)
Hehe: My dad used to refer to Mum as the CEO, they are both alive and after being married in well over 40 years they are still an example in being nice and respectful to each other.

I have adapted kind of the same attitude: As the one who brings most money to the table I demand a final say on anything major, but in reality my wife has found our last 3 cars, do the majority of the shopping etc, I mostly just rubberstamp and sign and keep telling my kids to respect their mum.

So far it has worked fine : )

Re:Firefox 79 by phreack on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:19PM (#23978228)
It's infuriating! Netflix even goes as far as condescendingly saying "don't you worry about this kind of stuff, you worry about what to watch next". It's ridiculous, if you're gonna require patch notes they must either be part of the app review, or be optional from the start!
Re:Firefox 79 by rurp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @07:44PM (#23981894)
I strongly agree, especially since I hate 95% of the changes they make. Netflix has the most user hostile design of any media app that I use. I'm still a subscriber for now, but it will be the first one I cut.
Re:Firefox 79 by FridgeSeal on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:17PM (#23982891)
> Netflix has the most user hostile design of any media app that I use

Personally I give that award to Spotify.

Re:Firefox 79 by aksss on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:23AM (#23983959)
Yeah, Spotify feels like a really cluttered small shed in the backyard; like I have to step over all sorts of crap to get what I’m after, and every day the stuff is cluttered up in a slightly different way and somebody randomly hangs a big Michelle Obama poster or some other crap from the ceiling once in a while. Very annoying. Desktop app is mildly more tolerable than mobile.
Re:Firefox 79 by DragoCubed on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:46AM (#23984049)
Every Spotify update I wonder what they mess up next. 'Is it sorting or filtering this time?".
Re:Firefox 79 by fomine3 on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:22PM (#23993364)
I suggest YouTube Music that's really awful.
Re:Firefox 79 by mderazon on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:29PM (#23981366)
Agree, this is the worst condescending bullshit I've ever seen. It's better to just leave empty

Uber are pretty bad at it as well

Re:Firefox 79 by gcbw3 on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:14AM (#23983915)
> Netflix.

In this one case they are right.

it was game-over to your opinion when you purchased their product and use a proprietary client to connect to the their proprietary servers.

If they want to break every single feature, while also denying access to older versions of the client, there's nothing you can do. Besides cancelling the membership, that is. But in this case there is nothing the changelog that would have helped you.

...all that is the complete opposite of Mozilla though.

Re:Firefox 79 by OkGoDoIt on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:29PM (#23978354)
I used to read these until every app stopped providing any useful information in there. Now I wait a while to install updates so I can read the new reviews. Apps updates are so risky, especially on iOS where you can't downgrade an app. More often than not an app upgrade will redesign the UI so I have to relearn it all, or remove free features and make them paid. "Bug fixes and performance improvements", yeah right :-(
Re:Firefox 79 by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:37PM (#23979194)
On iOS, you can connect your device to a computer running iTunes 12.6.3[1] before updating an app to save the older IPA file to your computer. If you later decide to downgrade, you can delete the app and then restore the old IPA from your computer. Backup the IPAs separately from iTunes, as iTunes syncing can screw you if you're not careful.

Yes, this is a complete and total pain in the neck, but it has saved me in the past. Jailbroken devices can also use tweaks that allow downgrading right from the App Store.

---

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208079

P.S. There's actually one more way to downgrade apps—use a version of iTunes from before Apple introduced certificate pinning (iTunes 7 worked for me) and use Charles Proxy to edit the request so Apple gives you an old version. This worked for me as of last fall—but in this case, "pain in the neck" does not even begin to describe it. :)

Re:Firefox 79 by fnord123 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:54PM (#23978666)
"bug fixes and enhancements"
Re:Firefox 79 by fullstop on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:10PM (#23978889)
A lot of apps have A/B testing going on which makes updating this field difficult.
Re:Firefox 79 by feikname on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:39PM (#23980435)
Not really.

""" Fix bug where sync could fail in Android 7 devices

Also, for a few users we rolled the following experimental changes:

  * X, Y and Z
"""
Re:Firefox 79 by DragoCubed on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:49AM (#23984059)
Discord has been really good with their changelogs but their changelogs in app stores are not as good as the ones in the beta channels. I liked their transparency when they introduced tabs in their Android app.
Re:Firefox 79 by on_and_off on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:17PM (#23982132)
Android dev here : big fan of having a what's new containing "we improved things".

ALL the majors apps I am familiar with basically launch new features in the same way : first under a feature flag (e.g. the feature code is in the app but deactivated by default, we control its activation server side). We open up the feature to a small percentage of users, look at how it is behaving (bugs, crashes, impact on metrics) and then decide whether we want to open it up to more users or not.

With such a system where your version number does not mean much, at best release notes would be "we added a new feature, you might or might not see it".

Re:Firefox 79 by mderazon on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:27PM (#23981347)
What are you talking about? Google play update section is my most visited app during the day I think.

I love reading the what's new copy. Some companies put a lot of effort into it, like Signal/Slack (when I still had it installed) Some companies leave it empty which I think is very bad

But the worst are companies that put a constant what's new section like "we're constantly updating our app to make it better for you" bullshit - Uber. This just feels condescending to me.

Overall I think it's a prime channel to let people who are interested in your app to know ... what's new

Re:Firefox 79 by chooseaname on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:47PM (#23978576)
> I suspect that approximately no one reads that "What's new" section, and they know it.

Sadly, people have been trained not to because devs always say, "Bug fixes and improvements".

Some people really do want to know what changed.

Re:Firefox 79 by benbristow on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:18PM (#23979605)
"We've been tweaking our app with the usual bug fixes and performance improvements"

Same thing on iOS to be fair.

Re:Firefox 79 by m-p-3 on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @01:04AM (#23983652)
Still not an excuse for laxism, even if Google does it to. They can do better than Google is they want to.
Re:Firefox 79 by ifmpx on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @10:02PM (#23982793)
I read them. Many do.
Re:Firefox 79 by anotherevan on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:42PM (#23980998)
Hey, I'm approximately a no one, and I read them!
Re:Firefox 79 by conradfr on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:28PM (#23977451)
I got a notification announcing the change.

Which is more appropriate than the one about Facebook.

Re:Firefox 79 by sixhobbits on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:03PM (#23977992)
Maybe more directly relevant but still very Not OK in my books. I get very few push notifications. Send me an email, put it on your blog, whatever - it's definitely not interesting enough for me to come even close to the "I want this pushed on top of whatever else I was doing" bar though.

Brave sent me a push notification this week too :( what browser should I switch to that doesn't try to exploit my 'engagement'

Re:Firefox 79 by coldpie on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:10PM (#23978091)
On Android, most apps include toggles in settings to disable different notification types. It's annoying that they're on by default, but at last you can usually disable them. In Firefox, you can turn off the "Product and feature tips" notifications in settings, and I bet that would prevent that kind of notification appearing. As a last resort, you can disable notifications entirely per-app at the OS level by digging into the Android settings.
Re:Firefox 79 by Rebelgecko on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:22PM (#23978252)
It would be nice if Firefox added a separate category for "Political Call to Action" notifications. That way we wouldn't have to miss out on "Product and Feature Tips", which are occasionally helpful. A bit of a moot point for me since I'm using FF on a Nexus 7 that doesn't support that level of selective muting
Re:Firefox 79 by thrwyoilarticle on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:29PM (#23980903)
This notification came through the 'Browser' channel, not 'Mozilla tricks and tips' like you might expect. So, congratulations Mozilla, I've blocked all of the 'Browser' notifications for your browser.
Re:Firefox 79 by dahfizz on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:22PM (#23978256)
+1 . Android has great notification management features and they are worth exploring if you care about this kind of thing.
Re:Firefox 79 by johannes1234321 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:32PM (#23978402)
If I have to disable something it's because of "anger", but I don't want "anger" about Mozilla. I want Mozilla to be the good ones.
Re:Firefox 79 by shantara on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:34PM (#23977546)
Interesting. Was it a regular Android notification or something custom in-app?

For me, there was no indication that this update was going to be any different from a minor bugfix they've rolled out a couple of days ago, until I've launched FF for the first time after the update and was a greeted by a full screen splash with the new version info.

Re:Firefox 79 by magicalhippo on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:39PM (#23977631)
Mine popped up in the notification area thingy at the top, like any other app notification. Clicking on it took me to a web page detailing the changes.

I've been running Nightly and Regular side-by-side for a while. I still use Regular the most, mainly because I find the new UI quite horrible to use. Nightly is clearly much smoother to use though.

Re:Firefox 79 by BelleOfTheBall on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @03:17PM (#23979595)
> it has overridden data collection preferences

Uhhh, what the hell. Is that only a thing on Android or should I be checking all of my devices?

Re:Firefox 79 by DragoCubed on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:50AM (#23984073)
It's just on Android.
Re:Firefox 79 by sandoooo on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @09:48PM (#23982723)
This sort of thing (updates as backdoor to get telemetry from people who explicitly opt out of telemetry) is becoming more and more prevalent. GitExtensions also does it - ostensibly a bug, too, but no hurry to fix it of course.

On the other side, Visual Studio forces me to open up a port and log in to MS account - tied to my real name and credit card - so it could upload my usage patterns every month, as a condition of the 'free' license. Perhaps that's the model we're converging towards, even for open source.

Re:Firefox 79 by Multicomp on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:11PM (#23981231)
This is why I turned off auto update on Firefox, I knew at some point to fenix update was coming down the pipe, and I was not sure if they would bother to inform me of the change.

For once my paranoia paid off!

Re:Firefox 79 by musicale on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:15PM (#23983231)
> I had to disable "Marketing data" and "Experiments" toggles. Not cool!

It would be nice if Mozilla adopted privacy-by-default rather than opt-out.

Re:Firefox 79 by inetknght on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:28PM (#23980328)
> Even more importantly, it has overridden data collection preferences after the update. Check "Settings > Data collection". I had to disable "Marketing data" and "Experiments" toggles. Not cool!

Oh ffs thanks for the heads up. Re-defaulting settings is a big reason I jumped ship from other companies' products.

Re:Firefox 79 by tallanvor on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:30AM (#23983985)
In one update Mozilla has more or less destroyed my trust in them. They reset privacy settings and pushed out a major change that leaves virtually no add-ons available with no warning. I don't understand what they were thinking with this.
Re:Firefox 79 by WCityMike on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:52PM (#23994024)
The ability to share a link and be presented with a menu that let you bookmark or send it to a different device -- gone.

Not particularly pleased with that.

I really sometimes grow very frustrated with Mozilla. In Cory Doctorow's _Eastern Standard Tribe_, some people work as saboteurs, planting really unpopular stupid ideas, and sabotaging clean functionality.

It feels like Mozilla is really rife with such characters.

Re:Firefox 79 by paulie_a on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:51PM (#23978626)
Completely new design that still lacks pull to refresh. Honestly which developer hates that ui design aspect. It's been filed multiple times and more recently as a bug. at this point it rightfully is a bug
Re:Firefox 79 by SECProto on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:32PM (#23979133)
I hate pull to refresh.

I would like swiping on address bar to switch tabs, though.

Re:Firefox 79 by shantara on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:59PM (#23979424)
Swipe to switch tabs has recently been added to the nightly releases:

https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/07/27/firefox-now-support...

Re:Firefox 79 by paulie_a on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:23PM (#23980848)
I don't see what there is to hate. It's a very deliberate gesture
Re:Firefox 79 by SECProto on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:04PM (#23981171)
I don't know when the last time I refreshed a website on mobile was. It's entirely possible that it could be coded in such a way that I wouldn't notice or accidentally refresh when I'm simply trying to scroll to the top of a page, but I think it's more likely that I wouldn't intentionally use it ever, but I would trigger it accidentally on occasion
Re:Firefox 79 by viraptor on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:00PM (#23981131)
Unless you're scrolling a lagging Twitter view and can't tell if you're momentarily frozen or already at the top.
Re:Firefox 79 by nyanpasu64 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:42PM (#23981464)
> Completely new design that still lacks pull to refresh.

Here's the thing... sometimes when you unload Fenix and then open a link from another app, the browser will fail to load... you get a white screen... and the page never loads, but at least you can pull to refresh, which does nothing... (press Back to get out of this state)

So the only time you can "pull to refresh" is when Fenix doesn't work!

Re:Firefox 79 by fnord123 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @01:53PM (#23978654)
I received a notification before 68.11.0 landed today warning me that an upgrade was coming and things would change. But it was only for 68.11.0 (current stable channel release on Google play store) and not 79.
Re:Firefox 79 by Zardoz84 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:42PM (#23979239)
today I just got a What's coming to Firefox Android popup
Re:Firefox 79 by 3ur6ryh3hefhfu on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:46PM (#23983368)
I'm confused, is the regular Firefox on the playstore now the same chromium/geckoview/word version that Firefox Preview was for awhile?
Re:Firefox 79 by DragoCubed on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @02:57AM (#23984096)
Yeah that's right. They're rolling it out. Funnily enough, they made Firefox Preview Firefox Nightly. The whole thing is really messy.
Re:Firefox 79 by qwertox on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:47PM (#23980523)
Is it still different from "Firefox Nightly" (previously named "Firefox Preview")?

This Firefox Nightly one uses the Gecko rendering engine, while the standard one uses Android's (or Google's?) Chrome Webview. Has this changed?

Re:Firefox 79 by sciurus on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:00PM (#23980654)
This is not correct. Both the old Firefox for Android(codename Fennec) and the new one(codename Fenix) use Gecko, Mozilla's rendering engine.

What has changed is that Fenix uses Gecko via https://mozilla.github.io/geckoview/

Re:Firefox 79 by qwertox on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:52AM (#23996678)
Thank you so much for that link. I think I got mislead by heise.de into thinking that this issue with Chrome WebView existed.

Since I have had issues in my app with Chrome/Android WebView, I will start experimenting with GeckoView. I didn't know it existed as a component. Thank you so very much!

Re:Firefox 79 by jorams on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:58PM (#23980635)
Neither version of Firefox for Android uses a Chrome webview. The old one is built on Gecko directly, while the new one uses GeckoView.
Re:Firefox 79 by aidenn0 on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:47PM (#23981507)
You're thinking of either Firefox focus on Android or Firefox on iOS, both of which use the OS native renderer.