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Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by stepstop on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @07:50AM (#23843878)
> “This case was not about how much tax we pay, but where we are required to pay it," Apple said in a statement. "We're proud to be the largest taxpayer in the world as we know the important role tax payments play in society."

That’s a really beautiful example of spinning the story of what’s going on.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by simonh on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:13AM (#23844695)
Apple pays an effective rate of 21% on foreign earnings, 35% on income earned from cash invested outside the US and over $10bn in corporate taxes overall. That doesn't include property taxes, payroll taxes, VAT, etc, etc. They are the biggest tax payer in the world.

The conventional view is that Apple pays no tax, Ive seen that asserted on HN many times, but it's just flat out not true. If you wan to say the above isn't enough, sure, fine that's an opinion you're entitled to hold. I don't even necessarily disagree, I think there's a reasonable case to be made that we are excessively incentivising the concentration of capital but that's a question for voters and politicians not individual companies.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by hellofunk on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:47AM (#23845146)
It is true about Amazon, though, and I’ve seen Amazon mentioned far more often than Apple in this regard.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by blibble on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:56AM (#23845262)
companies don't pay VAT because they claim it back on everything they buy

they do however collect it

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by kalleboo on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:02AM (#23845330)
They pay VAT on the value they add between what they buy and what they sell. Hence, Value-Added Tax.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by blibble on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:28AM (#23845643)
no they don't, they collect it, but the consumer pays it

this is the entire principle behind VAT

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by trollied on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:58AM (#23846072)
You're actually both right.

A company collects VAT from customers when they purchase. But it also buys from suppliers at a lower value. It pays the difference in the two VAT numbers (from customer-to supplier) to the VAT authority.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by simonh on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:33PM (#23849571)
Arguably the customer pays all of a companies taxes, after all that’s where the revenue comes from. The bottom line is those taxes all come from the activities of the company.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by darrenoc on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @07:51AM (#23843889)
The thinly veiled subtext is that the place they are required to pay it is nowhere.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by nojito on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:06AM (#23844007)
It's paid in the US. The EU is mad that they aren't getting it and have been targeting American companies for atleast 5 years.

This lawyer also has one of the worst success records in these types of cases.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by tsbinz on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:12AM (#23844067)
It wasn't paid in the US. The purpose of the scheme that Apple (and other companies) were using was to protect profits from US taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by nodamage on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:41AM (#23845062)
Yes, it was. Their arrangement only helped them defer US taxes, but the taxes were paid when the money was repatriated.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-to-pay-38-billion-in-repa...

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by diffeomorphism on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @10:26AM (#23845620)
No, as your link says it wasn't. Only part of the taxes were paid when the money was repatriated:

> A provision allows for a one-time repatriation of corporate cash held abroad at a lower tax rate than what would have been paid under the previous tax plan.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/technology/apple-tax-bill...

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by nodamage on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:11PM (#23851896)
I mean, tax rates can change over time. It seems like the goalposts have now been moved from "did they pay US tax?" to "did they pay enough US tax?".

You're free to argue that 15% is not a high enough corporate tax rate, but it is factually incorrect to say Apple did not pay US tax on the money they earned overseas.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by diffeomorphism on Thursday July 16, 2020 @03:48AM (#23856766)
> I mean, tax rates can change over time. It seems like the goalposts have now been moved from "did they pay US tax?" to "did they pay enough US tax?".

No, that is decidedly not what we are talking about. The claim was that holding all your money away from the US does not matter because the tax will be paid eventually. As we see, no it wasn't and the tax rate was not lowered because "taxes change over time" but because otherwise companies will just not ever repatriate their money.

It is factually correct to say that apple did not pay the full US tax rate on the money they earned overseas. You are free to argue that this is fine and they at least still paid some, lower tax rate, but this is the whole topic we are talking about. Apple pays very low tax rates and the EU, Ireland and the US are arguing whether this is unfair (state aid) and should change.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by nodamage on Thursday July 16, 2020 @06:08AM (#23857442)
Perhaps you should re-read the comment I was replying to. The original claim was that Apple didn't pay US taxes at all. I simply pointed out that they did.

A temporary change in the tax rate during 2018 is, by definition, the tax rate changing over time. If a product normally sells for $50 and I wait until it's on sale for $25 to buy it, did I pay the "wrong" price? No, I paid the price the vendor set at the time of purchase.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by x87678r on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:19AM (#23844125)
Well looks like last year they paid $10.5B in taxes (on 65.7B profits) so which part is wrong?

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by AngryData on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:23PM (#23849425)
That is a far lower tax rate than I pay.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by Luc on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:28AM (#23844192)
16%. Niiiice.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by twoodfin on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:48AM (#23844406)
Add sales taxes on their products, payroll taxes on their employees, capital gain taxes on the dividends they issue.... and Apple is generating much more than 16% of their profits in government revenue vs. a world where Tim Cook closes up shop tomorrow.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by chii on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:32AM (#23844958)
> Add sales taxes on their products, payroll taxes on their employees

these taxes are not taxes on apple (the company). They do not count towards a company's taxes paid.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by sil80to on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:54AM (#23844464)
Indeed - tax the little man from all angles, not the big corporation.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by jtbayly on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:58AM (#23844513)
Taxing the little man vs the big man is not Apple’s decision. Talk to your senator about that.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by sil80to on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:10AM (#23844652)
I am aware, and I don't disagree. I don't even begrudge Apple for using this amazing tax scheme - they'd be foolish not to. But the argument that they're paying enough because they enable the government to milk everyone else in other ways seems entirely wrong.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by dfxm12 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:42AM (#23845077)
They did choose to move to a tax haven though, while still going out of their way to to market themselves as being from California. It sucks they want to reap the benefits of being an American company without sowing their share.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by x87678r on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:07AM (#23844624)
The federal corporate tax rate is 21% so its pretty close.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by 627467 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:43AM (#23845080)
Can you give me 5% of your income?
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by iRomain on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:05AM (#23844000)
An horrible company that makes great product. Such is my dilemma with Apple!
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by unicornfinder on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:15AM (#23844080)
I mean, their products aren't that great. Their desktop lineup is quite frankly rubbish.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by read_if_gay_ on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:31AM (#23844219)
Their specs aren't great compared to competitors at the same price point, but specs are a small part of what makes up your desktop computing experience.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by routerhash on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:17AM (#23844102)
i haven't seen a desktop without internal wires other than Mac Pro
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by Majestic121 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:20AM (#23844134)
Is this your selling point for 'great' ?
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by raxxorrax on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:08AM (#23844639)
Well, it looks good.
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by huseyinkeles on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:24AM (#23844845)
how often do you look inside of your PC? :)
Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by NoSorryCannot on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:45AM (#23845104)
Single board computers are numerous, mostly but not entirely at the low end, and no cabled interconnects is the defining trait of the class.

The reason we don't see as much of this in full-size desktops is because density is clearly not the objective and it would mean sacrificing the modularity and flexibility of established standards.

Or in other words, more expensive with no real gain besides aesthetics, which aren't worthless but I'd bet they aren't worth _much_ for a box which spends most of its time under a desk concealing its insides.

Re:Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned by politelemon on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:04AM (#23843985)
It is, after all, their area of expertise.