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Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by ISL on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:04PM (#23783109)
While in effect it is abdicating, in reality, Congress is spinlocked by indecision.

There are deep divides between the branches of the electorate that have brought the representatives to office, as the United States faces a number of divisive issues. Those divides, and a preference for combat over compromise, leave us deadlocked. The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchement.

When Congress reaches approximate agreement on an issue, particularly an emerging one, it can move fast. See the passage of the PATRIOT Act or the recent move to spend more than $1,000,000,000,000 on COVID-19 economic relief.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:09PM (#23783857)
> The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchment.

Unfortunately, that just isn't so. The evidence of the last three decades has been that every time the Democrats compromised a little, the Republicans just moved further to the right and re-entrenched themselves.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:25PM (#23784031)
Don't fool yourself - both sides think the other is guilty of this.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by colde on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:33PM (#23784121)
The republicans effectively demonised the ACA, even though it was basically the compromise position (as it was quite similar to what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts). I would love some examples of democrats doing that.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by wutbrodo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:59PM (#23784420)
Would same-sex civil unions count? Or women and gay people in the military? There are a ton of social issues that society has moved dramatically leftward on; the fact that I agree with them doesn't mean I'm unable to step outside of my biases and understand why a conservative could just as easily make the claim that the left is intransigent.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by digitaltrees on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:45PM (#23786140)
Most of those changes were driven by courts not republicans consent and compromise in legislation.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by dougmany on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:17PM (#23785335)
But we are not seeing further-to-the-left arguments on marriage rights. It's not like now that same-sex people can marry, people are pushing for plural or animal marriage.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by newen on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:59PM (#23786672)
Not related to marriage rights but it’s pretty obvious that trans rights is the next big issue that’s being pushed nowadays. There was also that whole forcing businesses to make cakes for gay weddings thing (don’t remember the details but it was a whole controversy about rights of businesses to refuse service vs constraints due to discrimination laws).
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Kye on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:29PM (#23785439)
There is a movement for polyamorous marriage. A city in Massachusetts just recognized that arrangement for domestic partnerships. I think, like with same-sex marriage, most people would struggle to think of a reason to be against it that isn't rooted in appeals to tradition.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/massachusetts-city-begin...

For animals, there's the Harkness Test.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jcranmer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:42PM (#23785562)
Note that the dissent in Obergefell (the case ruling that states had to recognize gay marriage) actually explicitly said "It is striking how much of the majority’s reasoning would apply with equal force to the claim of a fundamental right to plural marriage."
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jlawson on Thursday July 09, 2020 @10:55PM (#23787698)
No, they're pushing for free trans surgeries and puberty blockers for kids instead.

It doesn't literally have to be the exact same issue over and over.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by fiblye on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:52PM (#23786619)
The above comments are about people in Congress constantly pushing farther right. Congress could've legalized those at any time but didn't. Courts did.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kec on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:24PM (#23784737)
Gun control and the "Gun Show loophole" comes to mind. Avoiding background checks for private transfer was the compromise position for requiring background checks for sales from FFLs.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:41PM (#23784936)
Very much this. There hasn't been a gun rights "compromise" (or proposal for one) where democrats gave anything back in congress in ... well never. It's always more restrictions of existing rights.

Compromise implies both sides give and take, and in the case of gun rights, democrats have only taken.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kelnos on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#23785998)
I think the problem here is that the left has learned that compromise positions leave gaping holes in the legal framework to the point that the laws that do get passed become largely useless.

Sure, we can compromise on the background check requirements such that certain types of sales don't require background checks... well, ok, but then that just means that the people who would fail a background check will buy privately or from a gun show, and their access isn't really diminished, so the so-called "compromise" was little better than not passing a law at all.

It still boggles my mind that if I want to drive a car, I have to be tested and licensed, and carry insurance, but if I want to buy a device specifically designed to kill, I can just walk into a store, and after any weak legally-mandated waiting period, walk out with a gun I don't even know how to use, let alone use safely.

And all this because it has to do with an amendment to the constitution that was never intended to mean what people have since "decided" it means. The current legal interpretation of 2A only exists because of lobbying groups like the NRA.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:30PM (#23786474)
If you read the Heller decision, they go back to original intent and the common meaning of the words at the time the 2nd was ratified. This idea that we've only had gun rights since Heller is itself a modern invention.

On your automotive analogy - anyone can own a car. I can gift one to my 5 year old and so long as it stays home, he's 100% legal. Driving it is a privilege that's regulated. Likewise, carrying a gun is often regulated as you wish - and beyond reasonable levels in several states.

The "gun show loophole" is nonsense. Very few guns are transferred that way, and essentially zero "crime guns" were purchased this way. They were all either acquired via straw purchases (already highly illegal) or completely above board in a state with lax reporting requirements to the background check system. Ironically, the gun industry and gun community are, generally, huge supporters of addressing both of those issues.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kelnos on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:14AM (#23788368)
> I can gift one to my 5 year old and so long as it stays home, he's 100% legal.

Not everywhere; in some (many?) states, even cars intended to sit idle on private property must be registered (usually for a lower fee), and you can't put a 5 year old's name on the registration. Regardless, giving your 5 year old a car and saying he "owns" it is laughable.

Your analogy doesn't really make sense, either. You could give your 5 year old a gun to keep in his room, and while that's a terrible idea, it'd be difficult for you to get in trouble for it. Either way, your 5 year old isn't gonna be able to walk into a car dealership and buy a car any more than he could walk into a gun store and buy a gun.

> Likewise, carrying a gun is often regulated as you wish - and beyond reasonable levels in several states.

No state regulates guns as I wish. I won't elaborate much because I doubt we're going to find any form of agreement there. I will say that I support the repeal of 2A (not like that will ever happen), and at the very least I'd like the states to have the power to regulate firearms in whatever ways they see fit.

> This idea that we've only had gun rights since Heller is itself a modern invention.

I don't think anyone's claiming that we didn't have gun rights before 2008. But Heller (and other cases over the last 80? years or so) have narrowed the kinds of restrictions that are considered constitutional. Heller finally taking the position that 2A protects gun ownership regardless of participation in a militia was a big deal as well.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:11AM (#23791100)
> No state regulates guns as I wish. I won't elaborate much because I doubt we're going to find any form of agreement there.

Let's take a state like Hawaii - what additional restrictions would you like to see them place on guns? It's already about impossible there.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kec on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:52PM (#23786198)
> well, ok, but then that just means that the people who would fail a background check will buy privately or from a gun show, and their access isn't really diminished, so the so-called "compromise" was little better than not passing a law at all.

This is a gross misunderstanding of the law. If you run a firearms business, you must have an FFL. If you have an FFL your must perform background checks for transfers regardless of where they occur.

Private party transfers are only from one non-dealer to another and must be infrequent / not a source of income for you. Purchasing a gun on behalf of another (such as to avoid checks) is called a straw purchase and is illegal regardless.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by alasdair_ on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:49PM (#23785641)
>Very much this. There hasn't been a gun rights "compromise" (or proposal for one) where democrats gave anything back in congress in ... well never. It's always more restrictions of existing rights.

This is actually a very good point. I wonder what the response would be to a Democrat-authored bill that (say) demanded universal background checks and proof of a firearms safety course completion and mandatory insurance like a driver's license that ALSO banned any restrictions on large magazine size and removed any restrictions on fully-automatic weapons, or something similar.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by R0b0t1 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#23786009)
Seeing how compromise didn't work and the history of abuse some of the restrictions you gave have seen (i.e. poor availability of classes, failure to issue in reasonable time, concerns about abuse of psychiatric diagnoses, or attaching a monetary cost to the exercise of a right) many will no longer settle for anything but the repeal of all restrictions on the right to bear arms.

Imagine carrying free speech insurance.

Most accept drivers licenses however the constitution grants the absolute right to travel in the same way it grants the right to speech. This has actually been used by the ACLU in an attempt to challenge no-fly lists, and hopefully drivers licenses will also be challenged.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by dougmany on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:05PM (#23785225)
I know a lot of liberal gun owning people. I have a hunch this is like environmental issues. I think many conservative want to support environmental issues but since it clashes with more government control, it get's thrown under the bus.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by ardy42 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:15PM (#23785305)
> I know a lot of liberal gun owning people. I have a hunch this is like environmental issues. I think many conservative want to support environmental issues but since it clashes with more government control, it get's thrown under the bus.

The American political system doesn't support a la carte ordering, it only has prix fixe options. If your priority is some main course, you might not be able to get the side you want with it.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by efreak on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:25PM (#23785965)
To make things worse, your main course might well be a side course; the thing you want might well be sacrificed for something else.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by bananabreakfast on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:54PM (#23785685)
That's... nearly entirely false?

America has by far the most relaxed gun laws in the western world. Most other countries simply ban ownership of most guns outright.

The current situation IS the compromise. And it's pretty stupid I agree. But, there are no states that ban guns and plenty of them want to.

There is no hyper political, highly targeted, industry funded political action group just like the NRA on the side of banning guns.

After every mass shooting in this country democrats have to fight tooth and nail to get even a tiny consideration of regulation in response to human tragedy. And even that usually fails. In what world is that rational? In what world is that not compromise from the left?

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:59PM (#23785734)
Our country was founded with gun rights, and 100 years ago gun ownership was nearly unrestricted. Our country is unique in the fact that we have a constitutional right to arms - most don't.

At every step, law-abiding gun owners have given up rights and gotten nothing in return.

The great irony, to me, is that almost all of the "successful" gun/weapon control campaigns have been rooted in nearly blatant racism. Yet repealing those laws born of racism isn't something the left is willing to entertain.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by joshuamorton on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#23786002)
> Our country was founded with gun rights, and 100 years ago gun ownership was nearly unrestricted.

Supreme court opinion on gun ownership was that it could be far more restricted (and it was in many cases!) until Heller.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:45PM (#23786135)
That only started with Miller, which was about 100 years ago and also a pretty good example of justice not being served.

Miller was dead by the time his case was decided, nobody argued his side, and the courts argument was was dishonest at best.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kelnos on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:41PM (#23786103)
> Our country was founded with gun rights

No, it wasn't. The current legal interpretation that most gun-rights advocates swear by has existed for a relatively short time, after the lobbying efforts of groups like the NRA.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by _-david-_ on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:15PM (#23786378)
Are you suggesting a person could not own any gun they wanted 200 years ago?
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by krapp on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:31PM (#23786871)
Well...

According to this article[0], the early US adopted numerous restrictions on guns based on preexisting English common law, and during the revolutionary war even forbid anyone from owning a firearm without first swearing a loyalty oath to the government[1].

And of course 200 years ago, slaves weren't allowed to own guns for obvious reasons[2]. Of course, slaves weren't considered persons at the time either.

It doesn't appear that there was ever actually a time in the US when gun ownership was completely unrestricted.

[0]https://theconversation.com/five-types-of-gun-laws-the-found...

[1]https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/01-03-02-0016-...

[2]https://www.sedgwickcounty.org/media/29093/the-racist-origin...

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by _-david-_ on Thursday July 09, 2020 @11:11PM (#23787787)
>According to this article[0], the early US adopted numerous restrictions on guns based on preexisting English common law, and during the revolutionary war even forbid anyone from owning a firearm without first swearing a loyalty oath to the government

Which is not what I was talking about. I was talking about gun types not regulations to get a gun, store a gun, registration or anything like that.

>And of course 200 years ago, slaves weren't allowed to own guns for obvious reasons[2]. Of course, slaves weren't considered persons at the time either.

I wasn't clear. I meant any free adult not anybody.

Some slaves were slave drivers. White slave drivers had access to guns. It is not clear if slave drivers who were slaves had guns but it is possible. This of course would be an exception if it did happen.

The average slave of course would not own a gun.

>It doesn't appear that there was ever actually a time in the US when gun ownership was completely unrestricted.

Again, that is not what I was arguing. There doesn't appear to be any restriction on the type of gun you could own. There were other restrictions like not shooting cannons inside of city limits for example. People were allowed to own cannons though.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kelnos on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:14AM (#23788372)
No, that's not what I was saying, but it's not exactly false, either, now that you've brought it up. George Washington himself went on several forced disarming campaigns in the first few years of the US (notably, before 2A was ratified). It's a persistent myth that gun ownership was unfettered and unregulated before the 1900s.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by _-david-_ on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:47AM (#23791972)
There is a reason I said 200 years not 250 years. Are there any examples after the 2A where the government took away guns?
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kec on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:31PM (#23786014)
> There is no hyper political, highly targeted, industry funded political action group just like the NRA on the side of banning guns.

You may be unaware because this isn't an important issue to you but just off the top of my head the Brady Campaign, Everytown for Gun Safety and the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence all have major financial backing and support firearm bans in one form or another.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by webmaven on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:19PM (#23786811)
I think those aren't "industry funded".
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by _-david-_ on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:14PM (#23786366)
>But, there are no states that ban guns and plenty of them want to.

There are plenty of states that have attempted to but the courts have stated the laws are unconstitutional.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:32PM (#23786486)
Plenty of states do effectively ban guns. Like states that don't let you leave home with a gun except to very narrowly defined shooting ranges. Or states that require guns to be secured, even overnight when you're in your own home. Hard to use it for anything in those cases, let alone self-defense.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by gnopgnip on Thursday July 09, 2020 @11:56PM (#23788000)
The federal assault weapon ban expired after 10 years instead of being renewed.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Friday July 10, 2020 @09:12AM (#23791104)
The FBI's own statistics showed that ban didn't accomplish anything.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by roenxi on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:40PM (#23785550)
Putting aside a lot of nuance and complication, both parties have an 'ideal state' in mind. They will make decisions that move the law closer to that ideal state. It'll be happening all the time, neither of them think the ideal state is compromising with the other.

And if you want an example of the Democrats doing something similar, maybe the immigration situation? It is also nuanced and complicated, but the appearance isn't that the Democrats are consistently working to uphold the consensus position as found in the law. There is a lot of demonising.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by digitaltrees on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:44PM (#23786129)
People can think whatever they, that doesn’t make it real. Your argument is a false equivalence. Even if both sides do it, it’s not of the same proportion and that matters.

Objectively, Republicans are not compromising, they are often explicit that they are waging a scorched earth zero compromise negotiating style. The heritage foundation wrote the template for the ACA in the 70s as an alternative to Medicare expansion. It was then Bob Dole’s plan when he ran against Bill Clinton, and was Dole’s alternative to Clinton’s health plan. Then Romney passed it in Massachusetts. But when Obama consciously tries to compromise and meet in the middle instead of participating they say it’s communism. They spent a decade to repeal a plan they invented.

Similar with global warming. Cap and trade was a republican idea. Where have they compromised? Instead they are demonizing all of science to shift the conversation to absurdity.

How about the 2008 stimulus. Obama has to fight tooth an nail for 800 billion even though economists say the output gap is $1.5 Trillion and the stimulus needs to be bigger. But Obama agrees thinking when it’s clear more is needed more will be available. He underestimated how much Mitch meant it when he said “the single objective is to make Obama a one term president” and was willing to let the economy struggle if needed. Then Trump gets $3 trillion with Democrats compromising all over the place.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by BoiledCabbage on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:08PM (#23784531)
But yet again, while both sides may feel this way, when measured objectively (as has been done) it's shown that almost all of the sudden polarization of the past 30 years has come from the right continuously moving further right.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by sam_goody on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:55PM (#23785095)
> when measured objectively (as has been done)

Citation needed.

I have seen this claim about the left at least as much as about the right. I would definitely appreciate someone who could bring facts to the discussion.

And a one sided list of things that party X did is just emotion.

(Also, a good rule in honest debate is to never argue unless you have at least two advantages to the opposing position. Such that I hate Windows, but I wish Linux had their GUI... This helps bridge the "us" and "them", and gets to a much more accurate result)

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Izkata on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:31PM (#23786877)
There's a chart I saw once, that's I can't find now. Hopefully someone else can, with the description below.

It seems that the vast majority of comparisons of left/right in the US are comparing either how many people identify with one side, or how each side views the other. This particular chart however was part of an article that tried to enumerate the actual political stances of major parties (in the US, and I think it included UK ones as a reference point, but not sure about that - may have been a separate part in the same article) and show how they changed over time.

The structure of this chart was a vertical line graph, where "now" was at the top and the past was at the bottom. I think it went back to around 2000, maybe a little earlier. Being vertical it was rather distinctive and I'm hoping this jogs someone's memory so it can be found again.

On it, over the past 10 years or so, the Republican party has only shifted slightly to the right, while the Democratic party veered way way way to the left.

Edit: Found it: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/26/opinion/sunda...

The specific chart I'm remembering is halfway down the page, and right below it the methodology is described.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by bananabreakfast on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:56PM (#23785718)
Look at the number of filibusters executed by party over time.

The republicans have led for decades. They are responsible for each vast increase, especially during Obama. Always pushing it further and further toward nothing getting done in the name of never compromising.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:12PM (#23784585)
Have they really moved farther right, or do they seem farther to the right since a lot of politics have moved to the left over that time? See same sex marriage, for example.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Majromax on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:09PM (#23785262)
A 2011-era FiveThirtyEight article (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-liberal-is-presiden...) looked at average DW-NOMINATE scores over time for the House of Representatives. Its conclusion was:

> According to the system, both parties have been on a trajectory toward more “extreme” positions since roughly 1970, the natural result of which is more polarization. However, the parties do not quite share equal responsibility for this: Republicans have moved about twice as much to the right as Democrats have to the left. Also, while the Democrats’ leftward shift was essentially a one-off event, the result of many moderate, Southern Democrats losing their seats in the early 1990s, the Republicans’ rightward transition has been continuous and steady.

Although to caution too-credulous interpretation, the DW-NOMINATE scores are derived from roll-call votes, so they may be biased by the issues brought up for such votes.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jimbob21 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @09:28PM (#23787222)
This says the opposite, as well as being more recent. https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/pew-research-c...
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by nostrademons on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:07PM (#23784521)
The opportunity probably isn't for an existing political party to move to the center - it's for a third party to come up the center, capitalize on the two major parties being so obsessed with making the other lose that they can't articulate a clear reason why they should win, and capture the voters who have become cynical about politics altogether.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by redblacktree on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:19PM (#23784683)
This will likely require some form of ranked-choice voting.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by anderskaseorg on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:15PM (#23785309)
Although ranked-choice voting (more precisely, instant-runoff voting) is a step in the right direction, it will not solve this problem. Yes, it lets voters safely express maximum support for a third-party candidate that’s guaranteed to lose. But as soon as that candidate gains enough support to become a viable threat to the two major parties, the game theory doesn’t work out so nicely.

Approval voting is a much simpler system that gives better results.

https://www.electionscience.org/library/the-spoiler-effect/

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by redblacktree on Monday July 13, 2020 @01:02PM (#23822949)
Interesting info! I suppose I could have said what I really intended to say: "We'll never have more than two parties in the FPTP system, so we'll need to change that first."
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by lostapathy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:51PM (#23785049)
I agree completely. I really think the current state of affairs is the only likely conclusion of a winner takes all system in a society with instant, nationwide communication.

Not voting for someone who can win is "wasting your vote" so people won't do that. Which, essentially, locks us into two parties. When the two parties know they are safe from a third, they're naturally going to be driven by the extremes and not the middle ground, because the national, fast-paced media lives off controversy between the extremes, which just ratchets it up farther.

IMO, the fact that we had political parties rise and fall (via third parties) in the past was more a historical artifact of not having a national, near-instant media to make sure things were polarized the same way nationally, nor could they let you know that a third party vote was a waste. In a sense it was more like local politics today, in that things weren't uniformly hyper-partisan, and a third party could make headway regionally and become a real contender before the rest of the country knew they were a wasted vote.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by buzzerbetrayed on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:36PM (#23786061)
If there is something that both the left and right leadership can agree on, it is that there will never be ranked choice voting. It benefits the Democrats and Republicans (the leadership) to have a 2 party system. So I don't see either of them trying to change that.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kelnos on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:45PM (#23786143)
I wonder if the voters would have a lasting appeal for this, though. While I would appreciate more consensus-building and agreement in our government, there are quite a few left-leaning positions that I will just not budge on, and consider the centrist approach on them to be just tolerance of and pandering to bigots. Not sure how many share that attitude, but I bet there are quite a few on both sides of the aisle.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by busterarm on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:17PM (#23783286)
Except this is demonstrably untrue.

The 115th (2017-2018)[1] Congress had both a Republican House and Senate and it got extremely little done.

Our Congress is completely ineffective.

[1]:Fixed.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by aeternum on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:04PM (#23783789)
It seems like a good design to me. We don't want a congress that always votes along party lines, and if there is not a strong consensus, then keeping the status-quo is often not the worst thing.

Especially since law-makers have a strong incentive to further their own careers by introducing changes. This system forces law-makers to work harder to get change passed, it often must be a change that benefits more than just a simple majority.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jfengel on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:20PM (#23783991)
"Keeping the status quo" sometimes is the worst thing, because it leads to tyranny of the majority. The majority has configured the laws to its benefit, and as the margin of its majority reduces, fights harder and harder to prevent minorities from seeking justice through the legislature.

It doesn't even require a majority: we've so predisposed the system to inaction that a small number of people can block it. To pass legislation you need the consent of the House and the President and a supermajority of the Senate. Any of those can stop a law in its tracks.

It's easy to say that we should favor not changing things, and there are definitely ways that we should force people to seek consensus. But when the current setup works against you, you can suffer for decades without getting relief, and it's not a good look to just shrug our shoulders and say, "Well, it's working for me".

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by aeternum on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:49PM (#23785026)
The only thing worse than the tyranny of the majority is the tyranny of a minority (oligarchy).

Generally though, I agree with you that we should all strive to vote for the greater good. We should fight against injustices even if they do not directly affect us.

I think that many of the issues come down to differing views of what more just: IE employment opportunities for a citizen vs. an immigrant, rights of a criminal vs. a victim, autonomy over one's body vs. a potential life. Those don't have easy answers.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Supermancho on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:45PM (#23784255)
> it leads to tyranny of the majority

This is the overall design.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jfengel on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:25PM (#23784745)
The design incorporates the idea that we're going to behave with some sense of compassion and justice. There are, famously, four boxes of liberty[1], and if the majority uses the first three to the detriment of the minority, we'll find ourselves the target of the fourth.

So out of simple self interest it behooves us not to just say "the status quo should be hard to change". When we see an injustice, we should fight to change it, even when it's not to our own immediate advantage.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brobdingnagians on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:40PM (#23784913)
The Federalist Papers #10 [1] deals with this. The original design was made very different and was intended to blunt the force of tyranny by majority by splitting power centers. One major issue is that over the centuries, the system was changed to be like what Fed #10 warned about.

It is an amazing read, but the things that stand out to me are these.

1. Have diffuse/decentralized power centers to make it harder for special interest groups to gain power and control things. The last two centuries have had a tendency to move power from states to federal government; and from Congress to the President. So the balance of power has centralized.

2. Avoid a direct democracy because they tend to get subjected to demagogues. The direct election of senators was a major turning point in helping centralize power; since states became more and more irrelevant.

I am always impressed by how much Madison understood the nuances of political power and tyranny.

[1] https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/primary...

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by joquarky on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:19PM (#23784675)
Wouldn't that just be direct democracy with extra steps?
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by dantheman on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:12PM (#23783904)
Congress should be ineffective the problem is the scope of their activity has grown so much... The US shouldn't have a strong federal government it was supposed to be executing enumerated powers, and granted those powers through amendments. We've given up on constitutional authority a long time ago - there's a reason prohibition required an amendment and the war on drugs didn't.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by mbreese on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:19PM (#23783984)
Prohibition didn’t require a constitutional amendment. The proponents wanted an amendment to make it more difficult for a future congress to reverse the decision. If alcohol was prohibited through legislative action, it could have also been restored just as easily. In retrospect, this strategy turned out to be pretty effective.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by wahern on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:58PM (#23784412)
Sure it did. In the 1910s Congress' Commerce Clause powers wouldn't have encompassed purely intrastate commercial activity. The legal landscape was already changing, slowly, but in no way would a national law have been effective without a constitutional amendment. Heck, at that time the Supreme Court interpreted the ratified Prohibition Amendment not to apply to homemade liquor for personal consumption, despite the plain text of the amendment.[1] Compare that to Gonzales v. Raich (2005) where the Supreme Court permitted Congress to regulate, under Commerce Clause powers alone, homegrown marijuana for purely personal use.

Perhaps the line of reasoning you're alluding to is that, at the time, state and local prohibition laws were already so common that the Prohibition Amendment shouldn't have changed the effective legality of alcohol consumption for most Americans. But to maintain the status quo in perpetuity, locking in Temperance Movement reforms without defectors slowly eating them away, a national law was desirable.

[1] I'm still looking for the citation, but IIRC the reasoning was that the court wouldn't interpret the amendment to reach private, non-commercial activity unless it was explicit on that point; it wasn't just a cop-out textualist dance with the word "manufacture".

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by mbreese on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:16PM (#23785324)
That is a far more well thought out argument than mine.

> But to maintain the status quo in perpetuity, locking in Temperance Movement reforms without defectors slowly eating them away, a national law was desirable.

But overall yes — this what what I was referring to. Even if I wasn’t clear on the state vs federal level, the overall argument that I’ve seen is that the proponents of prohibition wanted to increase the difficulty of rolling back prohibition. And if alcohol was banned through legislation, it would just take a single election (state or federal, depending on the law) to change things back.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by mywittyname on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:53PM (#23784348)
> In retrospect, this strategy turned out to be pretty effective.

You think so? It lasted all of fourteen years and did very little to stop the flow of alcohol throughout the country. And I believe it's the only amendment to have been repealed.

If it were a legislative action, rather than an amendment, I suspect it would have been more effective in the long term since legislation is usually more thorough and detailed than constitutional amendments.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rudolph9 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:19PM (#23785363)
I think their referring to the 2/3 of the house and senate that voted for it and 3/4 of states ratified it.

Weather or not the law had the desired effect relative to hypothetical legislative action is an open debate but undoubtedly could be overturned with less votes.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:58PM (#23784409)
> If alcohol was prohibited through legislative action,

Which it was, by the (post-Armistice, pre-18th-Amendment-ratification) “Wartime Prohibition Act”.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rhizome on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:20PM (#23783324)
How much activity do you expect from a party whose organizing principle is to shrink government small enough to be drowned in a bathtub?
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by bluGill on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:46PM (#23783593)
Maybe shrink government?

You might not agree with the principle, but given they haven't done much shrinking you cannot call it their principle.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by krapp on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:53PM (#23783691)
It is their principle, they just prefer to shrink the parts of government they disagree with ideologically. Which is why we have the biggest, most powerful and most expensive military in human history but our healthcare and education systems are a joke.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:05PM (#23783815)
On education, we spend among the most per student in absolute terms on K-12 and right at the OECD average as a fraction of the economy: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/figures/images/figure-cmd-3...

As a portion of the economy, just our public spending on healthcare is higher than the OECD average public spending: https://www.oecd.org/media/oecdorg/satellitesites/newsroom/4...

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by kelnos on Thursday July 09, 2020 @09:15PM (#23787149)
That seems like an odd metric. Why should education spending scale with the size of the economy?

Regardless, you could also argue that -- similar to healthcare -- dollars in is not a great metric anyway. Are we getting the best outcomes for that money? We certainly aren't for healthcare, and my (admittedly incomplete) reading on this topic is that our K-12 education system is nothing to be particularly proud of.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rhizome on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:13PM (#23783905)
Now weight those rankings with each country's military spending.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:35PM (#23784141)
Why? Because we spend somewhat more on the military as a percentage of GDP, we should spend more on everything else too?
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rhizome on Saturday July 11, 2020 @12:29AM (#23799508)
It's not the craziest idea.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:13PM (#23783913)
This is a great example of the flaw of using averages in an unbalanced society. Some wealthy districts spend far above the OECD average, while many poor districts are grossly under-funded (and under-achieving).
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:54PM (#23784354)
On a state-by-state level, rich districts do not spend more than poor districts: https://apps.urban.org/features/school-funding-do-poor-kids-...

Obviously high-cost states spend more than low-cost states. But their education spending is consistent with the size of their economies. Mississippi has a GSP per capita of $35,000 and spends $8,700 per student. Italy, Spain, and New Zealand have similar GDP per capita and also spend a similar amount per student.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by wutbrodo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:14PM (#23784607)
Thank you, the claim that our educational outcomes are poor due to underfunding is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Its really terrifying to see people confidently and passionately argue about politics while pulling their "facts" from an alternate universe.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by smegger001 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:06PM (#23786729)
I think it is in large part due bad spending priorities at schools. Several years ago I lived small rural community and the school district passed a heavy levee on homes to pay for a new football field and a far larger than needed grandstand/bleachers and field lighting. Turns out the high schools roof was needing replaced at the same time but they purposefully waited until they got the levy for the field through first to put forward the one to repair the school because they figured that they could get them both that way but could not get the field after replacing the roof.

The highest paid government employees in most states are football coaches for the state schools? Why? I thought schools job were to educate not cause brain injuries in their students? Why pay millions of tax payer dollars earmarked for education for someone to coach a game that injures the mental capacity of the students. Why not hire more professors with that money? why not pay teachers more or fix facilities buy material and equipment make teachers not have to spend their own money on basic supplies?

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by wutbrodo on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:13AM (#23788362)
> The highest paid government employees in most states are football coaches for the state schools? Why? I thought schools job were to educate not cause brain injuries in their students? Why pay millions of tax payer dollars earmarked for education for someone to coach a game that injures the mental capacity of the students. Why not hire more professors with that money? why not pay teachers more or fix facilities buy material and equipment make teachers not have to spend their own money on basic supplies?

I used to feel this way too, but my understanding is that investing in sports programs tends to _bring in_ more money for universities, on net. I don't think it's accurate to consider it as trading off against academic investment.

At any rate, this is a bit tangential: American universities are the best in the world, so the conversation is more about high school and lower, where our educational outcomes lag by some metrics.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by bluGill on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:24AM (#23789961)
This is high school. They don't need to attract students, they need to educate the ones they have. Considering the risks football should not be in public schools at all. Sure at university it pays for itself but that is a different level with different conditions
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Nasrudith on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:34PM (#23785482)
I would say that the discourse is insufficently precise in accounting for variables as well. One complication found is also that the better off need less funding in the first place. Which makes some sense upon reflection - parents who are illiterate in the local language for whatever reason would be incapable of providing "baseline" assistance in knowledge transmission. Asking for 100% equal outcomes would clearly result in a procrustean bed but counterintuitively equal opportunity does not require equal input costs as convenient as it would be.

This awkwardly also highlights ignored externalities and implied awkward questions in ways essentially nobody is comfortable is with the implications of especially regarding free choice and perverse incentives where the "best" option still has messed up implications.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by pen2l on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:56PM (#23785707)
Strictly speaking what you're saying is true, but it ignores other realities of the association of wealth and education outcomes which are implied when folks are talking about these subjects.

One of the best places in America to get education happens to be free: the public school system of Lexington [1]. But you'd be hard-pressed to get a house there for less than a million. Secondly, every other student in Lexington happens to have private instructors on the side. It's funny, if you randomly walk into a Starbucks in Lexington, chances are very highly you'll see an elder person with a young person training for standardized exams.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-...

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by wutbrodo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:11PM (#23785856)
The thread is about government (specifically, the congressional gop) underfunding education spending. The effects of parental wealth on educational outcomes is a complete non sequitur.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by s1artibartfast on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:35PM (#23784140)
Sure, but that is not evidence that republicans have shrunk educational spending.

Instead, it is evidence that there is bipartisan support for educational spending, but with uneven beneficiaries.

This is a different issue and the solutions to the first problem are not the solutions to the second.

Last, this isn't really a partisan federal issue. Most school spending is determined the state or local level and the same inequality is present in predominantly red and blue states.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:49PM (#23784289)
> it is evidence that there is bipartisan support for educational spending,

That does not correspond with the rhetoric that I've seen. Republicans are adamantly opposed to increasing spending for public education, and have systematically cut support for higher education spending in state budgets. Instead, I regularly see the meme that there's tons of fat in the education system; that we spend just as much as everyone else, but have worse outcomes. The fault is in the schools for not spending what they have wisely enough.

And I think that the funding story is flatly untrue. Because the dominant source of public education funding is from local taxes, there are vast differences in the per-student level of funding across the country.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:57PM (#23784396)
> And I think that the funding story is flatly untrue. Because the dominant source of public education funding is from local taxes, there are vast differences in the per-student level of funding across the country.

This is patently false. Local governments provide 45% of K-12 educational spending. State governments spend 47% and the federal government spends 8%: https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/styles/optimized_d.... State and federal funding go overwhelmingly to erasing the disparities in local funding.

Look at the funding numbers in your own state. Here is mine: https://i2.wp.com/conduitstreet.mdcounties.org/wp-content/up.... The funding differences are based on cost of living, not local income. My solidly middle/upper middle class county has spending near the bottom because it’s pretty rural. Baltimore which is very poor has among the highest. Montgomery and Prince George’s, which are opposite sides of the income spectrum, get almost the same amount of funding. You can also see in that chart how differences in local funding are more than compensated for by differences in state funding.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:36PM (#23785499)
> State and federal funding go overwhelmingly to erasing the disparities in local funding.

And it isn't enough. Not even close.

Boulder Valley: 13.8k/student. Pueblo: 10.5k/ea. Fort Morgan: 9.5k/student. Those are sufficiently widely varying that looking at "average spending" paints an inaccurate picture.

Durham public schools: 10.5k/ea. Chapel-Hill/Carrboro: 15k/ea.

https://ballotpedia.org/Analysis_of_spending_in_America%27s_...

Range of total spending per student spreads by over a factor of 4x.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:42PM (#23786119)
First, you look at the whole country, there is in fact not a difference in most states: https://apps.urban.org/features/school-funding-do-poor-kids-...

Second, I’m not sure what your Colorado example is supposed to prove. Boulder is a much more expensive city than Pueblo. Land for schools is cheaper, salaries are lower, etc. Those costs seem roughly comparable accounting for local costs.

Third, comparing spending across states is deeply misleading. The cost of schooling in Idaho (which makes up several of the lowest spending school districts in your link) bears little relation to the cost of schooling in New York (which makes up several of the highest spending school districts in your link). The irony of your example is that Idaho spends about 1/3 of what New York spends per student, and Idaho students outperform New York students: https://www.sde.idaho.gov/assessment/naep/files/general/naep...

Fourth, even the low spending school districts in your examples spend more than European countries: https://www.statista.com/statistics/381745/education-expendi.... School spending in London is about $7,402 per student. That’s substantially less than Pueblo or Durham, and only a bit more than the state average for Idaho ($7,100). I guarantee you that money goes a hell of a lot further in Durham or Boise than London!

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by s1artibartfast on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:22PM (#23786829)
I just wanted to say thanks for the insightful comment. I wasn't aware that this data had been compiled in such a clear and concise manner!

That said, what do you think drives the disparity in outcomes between different US districts and schools, if the funding roughly tracks with cost of living? Similarly, why are schools in European countries so much more efficient in terms of educational costs?

One thought on the first question that comes to my mind is that students who are impoverished or have english as a second language will not have comparable outcomes, even if their school districts have comparable funding.

I wonder if one aspect of the second question is the handling of special education for disabled students. Do European countries educate these students in a different manner from the US. Is the funding taken into account when we look at per student costs?

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:56PM (#23786235)
And yet, we still can't afford 5 full days per week of school. 60% of all districts in our state only have funding for 4 days per week. Many of the remainder are on 4.5 days/week.

> Third, comparing spending across states is deeply misleading.

This is why you cannot use averages to talk about school funding relative to the rest of the OECD. That's my point. You asked for statistics in my state. I gave them, in my most recent two states of residence.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by s1artibartfast on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:38PM (#23786916)
Why do you think that the individual school districts have so much of a problem providing and equivalent educations when compared to other individual school districts that have much better outcomes with less funds, even controlling for cost of living?

I wonder if it has to do with the level of services expected and provided between locations, states, and counties.

For example, I know that special needs students, which can be notoriously expensive to educate.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:13AM (#23788078)
Here's another data point, having looked at a few different US district budgets: Employee benefits are about 1/4 of the staffing budget. Those benefits include things like health care and pension that are part of national coverage in the rest of the OECD, but come out of the "education" budget in the US.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:45AM (#23788233)
No. Nearly all OECD countries pay for health and pension insurance through payroll taxes. So a school in France would pay employer-side payroll taxes for a teacher, which would show up as education spending. And the teacher would pay the employee-side contribution from her salary, which itself would show up as education spending. (That is to say, “national coverage” in most European countries doesn’t work how Americans think it works, which seems to be that health benefits for middle class people are paid for through income taxes on rich people. If it did work like that, you’d be right, but pretty much only Denmark does that. See: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-france.pdf. Look at France. About 25% of the total cost of an employee to an employer, such as a school, is employer-side social security taxes—the OECD’s term for payroll taxes for health and pension benefits.)

Moreover, many countries exempt teachers from the national pension scheme, just like the US. The UK, which I used as an example above, has a teacher pension system

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by s1artibartfast on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:02PM (#23795762)
I was with you up until here. Are you claiming that France does not have progressive income tax rates? This is certainly not the case. France has both a higher average tax wedge, as well as proportionally higher tx for high incomes.

French income tax maxes out at 45% on income above €157,807, while US federal income tax maxes out at 37% above $518,401

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by brandmeyer on Thursday July 09, 2020 @11:53PM (#23787984)
I spent some time digging into the London story. Here's some facts:

Spending levels are much higher than parent reported. [1] for one school chosen at random shows that their budget was almost 8000 GBP/pupil - over 30% higher than cited. Furthermore, 82% was staffing. A mere 3% is allocated to facilities.

In my local school district[2], salaries for all staff add up to a little less than 60% of the budget. Facilities (21.6%) and debt service (7.6%) are a far greater fraction of our costs.

In short, the "education is cheaper in London" story is a lie. Many of their costs are payed for by a different color of money entirely, and simply doesn't show up on the education budget.

[1] https://schools-financial-benchmarking.service.gov.uk/school...

[2] https://www.adams12.org/financial-services/documents/fiscal-...

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Friday July 10, 2020 @12:59AM (#23788299)
The school you picked “at random” is a community academy, which is a special kind of charter school outside the regular school system, which may also receive outside funding. So that doesn’t contradict the numbers I posted, which are for regular public schools in London. Here is another chart that’s consistent with my numbers: https://dfemedia.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/11/school-funding-alloc...
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by bluGill on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:37AM (#23790056)
You hear that rhetoric often. However the truth is different. If both the democrats and Republicans propose increasing spending, but one increases less than the other, the one that increases less is said to cut spending. I've seen cases where the larger spending passes and they take credit for it the next year even though the states budget didn't balance (the state has a balanced budget requirement) and so what was actually spend was less than what the spending cut party proposed. (we don't know what would happen if the other party had won, since they claim they would have delivered by spending less elsewhere)
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by s1artibartfast on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:37PM (#23784888)
>Because the dominant source of public education funding is from local taxes, there are vast differences in the per-student level of funding across the country.

This is what I said as well. There is also vast difference in per-student spending within blue states and blue counties. This is evidence that the problem crosses party lines.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by timgilbert on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:43PM (#23784231)
> Instead, it is evidence that there is bipartisan support for educational spending, but with uneven beneficiaries.

I'd see it rather as evidence that most educational spending happens at the state and local level, not the federal level.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rbanffy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:59PM (#23783739)
Interestingly, shrinking the government doesn't seem to affect the military...
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rayiner on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:09PM (#23783863)
First, it has: https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/dod_cha.... As a fraction of the economy, military spending is a little over one-third of what it was the year I was born. It’s actually pretty much the only part of government that has shrunk.

Second, the military is one of the few aspects of government that’s clearly supposed to be done at a federal level. Why do you think there is anything inconsistent about conservatives not cutting back government uniformly?

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by sangnoir on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:51PM (#23784318)
Without knowing your age - I'm guessing you were born during the cold war/before the fall of the Berlin Wall (or at some point in the immediate aftermath). That event alone (and not some small government principle) was responsible for less military money allocated to counteracting the specter of a Soviet world order
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Mediterraneo10 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:00PM (#23784430)
> Second, the military is one of the few aspects of government that’s clearly supposed to be done at a federal level.

According to the 18th-century conception, the army indeed becomes a federal concern in wartime, but on an everyday peacetime basis, the training of soldiers was supposed to be done within militias regulated by the states.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by Supermancho on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:50PM (#23784313)
> Why do you think there is anything inconsistent about conservatives not cutting back government uniformly?

There are 2 things that are not being taken into account.

First, historic trends are not reversed by relatively recent changes in allocation to the US military.

Second relatively recent changes in military utility of manpower vs aircraft vs cruise missile has made certain kinds of spending obsolete. A modern, effective military does not require the same logistics anymore, so of course spending has gone down.

There is nothing inconsistent about conservatives (Republicans) expanding military spending, as they always have and will continue to do so within the bounds of recommendations from the industrial military complex.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by evan_ on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:18PM (#23783972)
Jokes are supposed to be funny, our health care and education are tragedies
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rhizome on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:11PM (#23783882)
I don't know how you're reading all of that into my comment, but my point is that the members of a political party dedicated to shrinking government to nothing isn't going to do much work. That's the shrinking.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jki275 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:11PM (#23783886)
Republicans don't want to shrink the government any more than Democrats do.

They just want to spend the money that doesn't exist on different things.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rhizome on Saturday July 11, 2020 @12:34AM (#23799531)
Do you know who Grover Norquist is? I don't mean to be curt, but there are specific Republican projects here that have been operating for decades.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jki275 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @08:25AM (#23801657)
No one really cares who Grover Norquist is. He has no influence on anything.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rhizome on Saturday July 11, 2020 @03:41PM (#23805209)
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jki275 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @09:31PM (#23807872)
Thanks for posting a Wikipedia article.

I'm well aware of who he is. What he wants doesn't actually get done, no matter how many pledges people sign. It's a fantasy.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by rudolph9 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:28PM (#23785434)
I wish people could take a step back from the “shrink government” debate and focus on making laws more effective and efficient.

I could write a piece of code that adds two numbers but takes two days and all available memory to compute the result.

A lot of laws are on all levels of government from both sides of the isle are well intentioned but the costs surrounding the laws are prohibitive.

That doesn’t imply we need less laws, that doesn’t imply we don’t have enough laws, it means we need to take a hard look at where the bottlenecks are and streamline the process and to achieve the desired result.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by votepaunchy on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:25PM (#23783375)
Without eliminating the filibuster the Senate can only pass bills with a simple majority by the extremely limited reconciliation process.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by coredog64 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:10PM (#23783874)
The filibuster doesn’t need to be eliminated. It can serve it’s purpose if we hold to the original implementation: Make members read the phone book on the floor on Sunday morning at 2am instead of requiring 60 votes to end debate.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by caymanjim on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:01PM (#23783754)
Filibuster is almost never used. It's occasionally threatened, frequently used as an excuse for not even trying, but rarely used. If it were used more often, it would elevate the debate around the bills under consideration. Congress doesn't even try.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jki275 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:10PM (#23783870)
The threat of a filibuster is enough to make it not worthwhile to bring legislation to the floor. "debate" is pointless when everyone's mind is made up.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by woeirua on Thursday July 09, 2020 @06:51PM (#23786191)
Eh... I'm not sure about that. When Democrats had control of both houses + the presidency in 2008, they actually got some stuff done (which included the ACA).

The problem with the 115th Congress is that Republicans have done a good job getting their base to believe that various policies are bad for the country, but when push comes to shove even they recognize that: 1 - they have no viable alternative, and 2 - that said policies are better than nothing.

You should not conflate one party's inability to govern with Congress being dysfunctional overall. When the Dems get control of all branches of government again, I fully expect to see the logjam clear up for at least a few years.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by mikepurvis on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:56PM (#23783721)
Tim Alberta's excellent book "American Carnage" covers this period in detail— the closest thing to a short answer on it is that the Freedom Caucus is essentially a second party inside the Republican party, and are hardwired into a scorched earth mode where they vote no to anything that has even a whiff of compromise to it.

This time was an extraordinary humiliation for Paul Ryan in particular because it should have been an opportunity to get lots of ideologically-motivated things done really quickly, and yet they failed to achieve even incremental progress on Trump's top legislative priorities, like repealing the ACA and securing funding for the wall.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by simonh on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:56PM (#23785106)
The problem there was although they were stated to be priorities, neither Trump nor the Republican caucuses in Congress or the Senate actually thought either things were a good idea. Those weren’t ideologically motivated objectives, they were publicity motivated positions.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by mikepurvis on Thursday July 09, 2020 @05:11PM (#23785276)
Okay, fair, but the end result is still a two year tenure starting in 2016 where the whole federal government was until Republican control, and almost no progress was made on anything. The big achievement was passing a set of unfunded tax cuts— it's got to be pretty devastating for that to be the high point of a career (Ryan's) built on being a deficit hawk.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by simonh on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:17AM (#23789603)
Sure, but I suspect that deadlock was more to do with the specifics of the awkward relationship between mainstream Republican representatives and Trump in particular than a systemic problem. Ugh, as someone who considers themselves a natural (moderate) conservative it pains me to say this, but frankly it's just as well.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by nostromo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:22PM (#23783338)
Because they knew most things they wanted to do would be vetoed. As such, the bills that went forward had Obama's support from the get go.

This is separation of powers at work and is a good thing.

Edit: the comment above was edited to change the congress and dates in question

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by SubiculumCode on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:55PM (#23783710)
If you look at the our American history, you will find that changes in party power happen much more frequently than it had in the first two centuries of the U.S. For many epochs of a decade or more, one party tended to hold sway in both houses of congress and the presidency, allowing much to get accomplished. Switches in party control of government usually followed rises in corruption/ineffectiveness that can happen to those who remain in power too long. In the last several decades, party control switches back and forth rapidly.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by busterarm on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:45PM (#23783587)
In 2017, Trump was President...They didn't get voted out in the House until 2018.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by nostromo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:56PM (#23783723)
The 114th congress served entirely under Obama. Please read the comment I responded to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/114th_United_States_Congress

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by busterarm on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:15PM (#23783937)
Typo. 115th. Still Republican/Republican. I gather you know this but are splitting hairs.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by nostromo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:21PM (#23783998)
Unfortunately I haven't developed the ability to read minds just yet.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by jki275 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:09PM (#23783860)
Calling it a Republican House and Senate doesn't really do justice to the entire argument.

Yes, Congress is ineffective -- I think that's almost become an axiom at this point.

But it is often ineffective because of the rules it has adopted itself. The filibuster was removed for federal justices, and guess what? I think it's nearly 200 justices confirmed in the last three years, and while I don't remember the exact number during previous congresses I believe it's significantly higher.

As already noted, the filibuster is the root of a lot of this, but should the filibuster go away? McConnell famously told Reid he was going to pay for removing it, and he's made good on that promise, essentially transforming the entire federal judiciary with the power he was given. I view the filibuster as a check on the power of a tiny fractional majority -- should one party totally control everything that happens with a single vote majority? That essentially ignores the concerns of the rest. The filibuster at least forces some consensus building.

Better would be to have more than two parties. But how we could ever get there now I have no idea, the two parties in power have no intent of giving it up, and most people quite frankly are too stupid to even be bothered to vote, and those that do might be even more stupid in some ways. "Congress" is bad, "my congressperson" is the greatest ever because they get me money, and that seems to be the guiding principle for people voting these days. Maybe it always has been.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by ScottBurson on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:43PM (#23784953)
The only way we'll get a viable third party is to change our voting system. Allowing a voter to vote for only one of several candidates locks us into a two-party system, because it requires the voter to vote against all but one candidate.

Approval Voting simply allows the voter to vote for or against each candidate independently. (The instruction is to "vote for all candidates you approve of" -- hence the name.) "One person, one vote" becomes "one person, one candidate, one vote".

Instant-Runoff Voting (aka Ranked-Choice Voting, though there are other ranked-choice systems) is getting more buzz these days than Approval Voting, but AV is superior: much simpler to implement, easier to understand, and much less likely to return an anomalous result.

For more info: https://www.electionscience.org/

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by TigeriusKirk on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:08PM (#23783843)
Political parties have very intentionally created the deep divides in the electorate. It's not something that just happened, it was something that was made to occur for the benefit of the politicians.

So I'm still putting the blame right on them.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by monocularvision on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:12PM (#23784579)
The power of political parties has _greatly declined_ in the last 50 years. Do you think perhaps more powerful parties had a longer-term outlook and were more willing to compromise?

Personally I don’t think the decline in Congressional power has a single cause. But the decline of political party power is surely one.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by etrautmann on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:10PM (#23795133)
Sure, but it would be more useful to attempt to understand why the system incentivized politicians this way. If everyone that engages with a system can be blamed for doing something wrong, then the system needs to be rethought.

Concretely, I think we should prioritize campaign finance reform and lobbying. It's only a start, but a potentially important one.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 09, 2020 @04:18PM (#23784668)
> The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchemen

No, it's not; political opinion in the US is closer to a bimodal than a normal distribution; the center of the current Overton Window is a place where you lose your base while not meaningfully appealing to people inclined to vote for your opponent, plus even if you succeed momentarily when (probably not “because”) you do that (e.g., Bill Clinton), the result is shifting the near pole of the Overton Window toward your opponents’ position which almost invariably results in a similar movement of the far pole maintaining the width of the Window.

A lot of the dynamics of this is tied to the structure of our electoral system; more effectively representative, multiparty systems have different dynamics.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by x0x0 on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:00PM (#23783752)
It's not an artifact of division necessarily -- it's that the US government, structurally, has an extraordinarily high number of veto points.

eg in federal legislation: the House (majority); the Senate, representing increasingly tiny numbers of Americans (supermajority, often: cloture); the president, and the supreme court.

Ezra Klein wrote a book about it. https://simonandschusterpublishing.com/why-were-polarized/

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by vkou on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:09PM (#23783862)
> The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchement.

1. What sort of compromises with the modern Republican party do you expect the Democrats to have to make, that they haven't already been making?

2. And what will their reward for making them be? Another supreme court appointment unfilled until the president is a Republican? Another crappy compromise healthcare bill that maintains the status quo? Another decade or two of inaction on climate change?

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by nostromo on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:20PM (#23783319)
Your comment seems self-conflicting.

As you note, when congress sees an urgent problem worth solving, they move quickly.

When I read, "congress is abdicating its responsibility", it seems to me people are just upset a law they like wasn't passed.

In other words, people want a dictator they agree with, rather than taking the time and effort to change the minds of their fellow citizens on any given issue.

Besides, inaction is often the best path to take, particularly when there isn't a clear winning idea.

Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by enchiridion on Thursday July 09, 2020 @03:36PM (#23784159)
I tend to agree with this. Some complain about the size and complexity of federal law, but also want more federal law.
Re:U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native Americ... by conception on Thursday July 09, 2020 @02:16PM (#23783279)
I think there are perceived deep divides but those are mostly fictional. e.g. a number of conservatives like the ACA but hate Obamamcare. Propaganda is doing its job of keeping the electorate divided, even if a large number of our aims are actually aligned.