News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by henriquez on Saturday June 20, 2020 @11:21AM (#23584420)
This is something people often forget about with laptops. Between dust buildup and thermal paste degradation, performance will always slow over time due to rampant thermals. Even tech-savvy people often seem to think their laptop is simply “slowing down” and “too old” when the solution is often as simple as a can of compressed air.

I’d really recommend doing the dust cleanup every year or so. It’s usually easy enough to remove the bottom cover of any laptop without particularly special screwdrivers.

Desktops (especially the PCs with the case Windows) are a bit easier to understand because you’ll see the clogged intakes and dust buildup much more readily.

One thing I like about mechanical keyboards is that the keys can be removed making cleaning much easier. Six months is a better timeline for keyboard cleaning, these things get _nasty_ especially if you have pets.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jessriedel on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:09PM (#23584684)
> It’s usually easy enough to remove the bottom cover of any laptop without particularly special screwdrivers.

"particularly special"? The screwdrivers needed to open up a Macbook are special enough that I've never seen them used for any other object. So are you just glad that Apple didn't decide to create a new screwdriver standard for each Macbook model? :)

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by neilv on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:29PM (#23584788)
BTW, one of the most useful tools I've found for working on arbitrary modern electronics (after a basic set of ordinary screwdrivers and jewelers' drivers, a needlenose pliers, and some kind of spudger) is a $10-$20 set of as many different security screw bits as you can get. IME, it pays for itself the first time you need one of the bits, and I wish I'd bought a bigger set the first time.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by dzhiurgis on Sunday June 21, 2020 @02:08AM (#23590219)
Well latest MacBooks also have internal clips that you need suction cups placed in exact locations to release. I've given up on fixing them.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @05:17AM (#23590893)
You'd almost think they want you to walk into one of their stores so their salespeople have chance at trying to upsell you to their latest model.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by lloeki on Sunday June 21, 2020 @08:58AM (#23591763)
Anecdata: in 12 years of owning Macs I personally have never had this experience. In fact they usually went out of their way to provide solutions to extend the hardware lifetime as much as possible.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:13AM (#23592125)
Anecdata in return: I've had the exact opposite, macbook air 2013 issue with a borked keyboard, clearly a manufacturing defect and all they could do is sell me a new one, repairing the old one (which should have been free of charge no matter what the warranty situation) would cost more than it was worth.

My solution: (1) screw Apple, not buying their hardware ever again and (2) use a USB keyboard.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by admax88q on Sunday June 21, 2020 @10:14AM (#23592132)
Walking past all the shiny new electronics to the help desk way at the back is enough of a sales tactic for them. there's a reason all Apple stores have that layout, they don't need to train their techs in sales as well.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by lloeki on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:47PM (#23593725)
Strasbourg's Apple store has two distinct "front" an d "back" entries and two distinct half-floors that communicate by a couple of steps and are separated by a big wall, respectively for the sales side and the support side. Note that the "back" one isn't really "back", it's more like opening towards a mall instead of outside.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by isoskeles on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:41PM (#23584869)
I also find these very useful, but I have some that wore down and start stripping the screws.

I'd like to find a set that isn't prone to wear, unless that is simply a fact of life. I'm wondering if I was just being too cheap when I bought my first set.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by swimfar on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:53PM (#23588749)
It's not a fact of life, it's due to poorly made screwdrivers/bits. Unfortunately, it's getting more difficult to find, or at least be certain of the quality of tools. You can only really know that it's a good tool after getting a lot of use out of it. But by then that particular tool may no longer be sold, or it may not be manufactured the same way, or even in the same factory. So any verified reviews may be out of date.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by simcop2387 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @01:22PM (#23585116)
I've had good luck with the iFixIt kits, but I haven't had to use them often enough that wear might be a real issue, so perhaps I just haven't seen it.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by Reason077 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @01:34PM (#23585191)
I bought this set a year ago and have been very happy with them. The heads/bits seem very solid hard steel. Not the soft ones that you often get. Comes with all the weird pentalobe etc bits for Apple and Nintendo etc.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0728BJ7TH/

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by mirashii on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:28PM (#23588638)
I've had good luck with Wiha tools.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by LogicWolfe on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:53PM (#23589067)
I second this. I had an ifixit set and then got this wiha set: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JQ753W8/. I ended up giving away the ifixit ones because the wiha quality was notably superior.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by tr352 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:54AM (#23591287)
Seconded. It's definitely worth spending some extra money on a reputable brand, rather than a generic low quality product with a meaningless name stamped on the box. For screwdrivers I stick with PB Swiss.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by rhinoceraptor on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:35PM (#23588662)
I second the recommendation for the iFixit screwdriver sets, the Mako is great for precision/smaller things, and the Manta is great as more of a general purpose set. I use the Manta all the time for general household applications. The other awesome part is the lid can double as a parts tray. I do with the Manta had more hex drivers, but I have a separate set of those as well.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by neilv on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:49PM (#23584928)
Good point. One of my sets was of noticeably poor quality compared to the others. For bits I was using frequently, I'd try to find a tools seller with a brand to protect (probably not on Amazon, with their SKU commingling).
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by WalterBright on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:00PM (#23589101)
> a $10-$20 set

Which renders the whole notion of a "security screw" a joke. So why do companies persist in using them?

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by henryfjordan on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:47PM (#23589333)
They use security screws to deter passer-by from unscrewing the screws. It's very easy to fashion something that will unscrew a flat or Philips head screw while security screw basically require the right screwdriver. Useful in elevators, bathrooms, or anywhere the public might be a nuisance.

This also prevents people from unscrewing their Macbook and messing something up then coming into the store and complaining. If you are willing to go out of your way to get the right screwdriver, you probably know what you are doing inside of the laptop.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by ornornor on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:35AM (#23590099)
> This also prevents people from unscrewing their Macbook and messing something up then coming into the store and complaining.

Right. Because this happens all the time with laptops that use regular screws, and there is no way to tell if the damage has been caused by someone opening up the machine and destroying something.

There is no good reason for keeping people away from the insides of the computer they paid (a fortune) for, and yet Apple gets away with it.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by sjwright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:48AM (#23591257)
If you have a philips screw, get a philips driver. If you have a tri-wing screw, get a tri-wing driver. Sure the latter aren’t as common, but they’re readily available from countless online stores. Unless your Government has outlawed certain types of driver, it’s absurd to say that one screw type locks you out more than the other.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by osrec on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:44AM (#23591477)
It's not absurd. Just because it's available somewhere doesn't mean it's easy to find. Also you're having your arm twisted to purchase something that will probably be used very little elsewhere in your life. Why not just use the more common screw and make things a bit easier?!

It's almost like a company using an uncommon electrical plug on their power cable, and expecting everyone to buy an adapter to use it. People would be outraged.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by sjwright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:10AM (#23592412)
My decking was installed with a somewhat uncommon drill bit that isn’t in many people’s household toolkits. Is my decking user hostile?
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by osrec on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:31AM (#23592524)
If there is a valid mechanical/electrical/physical reason why they would choose one fixing over the other, then fair enough - sometimes the more esoteric product can be the correct or only one for the job. If they're just doing it for the sake of making it harder to work with, then, by definition, it's user hostile.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by DanBC on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:33AM (#23592544)
What screw head did they use?
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by sjwright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @08:00PM (#23596306)
Square. You won’t find square bits in any supermarket or gas station store. But they’re readily available in hardware stores.

Similarly, the screwdriver bits needed to open a MacBook are readily available from computer repair parts stores.

Seems perfectly analogous to me.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by tlavoie on Monday June 22, 2020 @02:28AM (#23597755)
Those are Robertson-bit screws, and are ubiquitous here in Canada. (Also a Canadian invention, don'tcha know.) https://www.robertsonscrew.com/

They work great with a power driver, such as you'd want for putting in a deck or fence, so 2-3" deck screws are like my version of duct tape around the house.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by henriquez on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:53PM (#23596284)
It’s just a small star shaped screw IIRC but nothing specific to Apple; other small electronics use these too.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by garaetjjte on Sunday June 21, 2020 @08:11AM (#23591582)
BTW, I wish manufacturers would stop using Philips screws. Hex or Torx is so much better design.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jankiehodgpodge on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:18PM (#23593441)
Depends on the application, Torx doesn't cam out for example which in some cases could be undesirable.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by garaetjjte on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:56PM (#23593790)
I don't see why cam out should be ever desirable. Use torque wrench if necessary. Meanwhile, with Philips this turns out: screw is fastened with cam out torque ... some time later ... due to dirt, rust, etc. it now requires slightly more torque to unfasten, but that is higher than cam out! So now you have to wrestle to push driver stronger, each failed attempt wears screw more, and of course you can hurt yourself when it cams out when pushing strongly.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by osrec on Sunday June 21, 2020 @04:58PM (#23595346)
I agree that cam out is not usually desirable, however it could be used as a safety mechanism against excessive torque for the material being screwed into (although it's probably not the best way to implement a safety measure).
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by WalterBright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @02:21AM (#23590265)
> Useful in elevators, bathrooms, or anywhere the public might be a nuisance.

True, but I'm not in the habit of randomly picking a laptop off of someone else's desk and disassembling it.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by eecc on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:14AM (#23591351)
Well, at my Alma Mater in Rome I heard the story that all machines in the “internet lab” (we’re talking ‘00s here) had their RAMs ripped out and replaced with older and smaller sizes, as well as all the CPUs.

Ideally admins should have chained and locked them, but a weird driver would have reduced the incidence of the problem

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by kockic on Sunday June 21, 2020 @09:10AM (#23591817)
Would it though? They already had matching, smaller size, RAM modules. If they went this far, they could definitely get the proper tools as well.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by vl on Sunday June 21, 2020 @03:14AM (#23590432)
It’s just a screw which is better for machines. They don’t really care if you can open it or not, since it’s hard enough with any screw. But they do care if assembly robot makes less mistakes.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @05:18AM (#23590896)
Torx works fine for machines. As do hex heads. This is just a ploy.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by diroussel on Monday June 22, 2020 @11:26AM (#23601240)
Torx is mechanically superior to hex. I would expect an expensive laptop to have mechanically superior fastenings.

https://rtstools.com/why-torx-bolts-are-better-than-hex-bolt...

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:18AM (#23625037)
A bolt for a laptop is just a bolt. The kind of mechanical superiority that you'd get out of using Tor-x vs a hex head is not something that would make your expensive laptop any better. Simple Philips heads would be fine, hex heads are more than good enough and Tor-x likely overkill. They do look nice though.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by sjwright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:51AM (#23591273)
I for one am very glad that my father-in-law doesn’t have the screwdriver that would open his MacBook. Otherwise it would already be broken.

One person’s “ploy” is another person’s “essential feature”.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:42AM (#23591466)
Well, maybe he'd learn something useful, maybe not. But it is his MacBook and regardless of whether you are glad about it or not he should be able to do with it as he pleases. Clearly, other laptop manufacturers survive just fine using normal screws. Treating computers as though they are disposable appliances that can not be repaired, in fact constructing them in that way on purpose is neither desirable nor does it make sense from an ownership and an ecological perspective, even if there are edge cases where it is beneficial.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by sjwright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:03AM (#23592375)
But he can do as he pleases. He can go on eBay or amazon and buy the correct driver.

Your logic seems to be that if you can’t open a device with tools available at your local gas station store, it’s user hostile?

And it’s quite egotistical and “in the bubble” to say that opening your devices is something everyone should be able to stumble into. If you applied that logic to everything we own, nobody would have any time to do anything else.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by mchaver on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:37PM (#23593626)
> And it’s quite egotistical and “in the bubble” to say that opening your devices is something everyone should be able to stumble into.

That makes no sense. It is selfish to have a right to open a device you have purchased?

> If you applied that logic to everything we own, nobody would have any time to do anything else.

Having a right to open your own device does not mean you are required to do so nor do you have to spend all your time opening the devices around your house. It is also beneficial in the sense that if you are not willing to open your own device you can go to a third party you trust to open it without requiring the manufacturers permission.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by sjwright on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:56PM (#23596294)
I agree with everything you said. You seem to be arguing against someone else, not with what I wrote.

Where I don’t agree is your inference that using a less common but still readily available screw head means you have “no right” to open your device.

Minor inconveniences are not the same as a loss of rights, and it’s astonishing that anyone would try to conflate the two.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by mchaver on Monday June 22, 2020 @12:41PM (#23602287)
My apologies for misinterpreting what you intended to say.

> Minor inconveniences are not the same as a loss of rights, and it’s astonishing that anyone would try to conflate the two.

They are not entirely the same, but a world with less standards (that are high quality and open) seems like a better place. I enjoy being able to use USB ubiquitously. If every company had their own screw head standards that seems objectively worse. Apple's product design definitely feels like they want it to be as difficult as possible to open.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by decompiled_dev on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:12PM (#23589164)
I am sure it stops a significant portion of people opening them still. I'd really want to take one apart before going through the hassle of buying special tools.

Kinda like how companies makes unsubscribing hard, not impossible.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by asjw on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:00AM (#23591065)
If you just wanna disassemble the laptop, any screwdriver that fits is good

Once you unscrewed it you can replace the screws

People don't do it because are afraid of voiding the warranty or because just don't care

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by mrb on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:32AM (#23590082)
«$10-$20 set of as many different security screw bits»

The one I own: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0023QTESS And I have used almost 1/3rd of the bits. I don't think I have ever seen a set more complete than this one.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by anon73044 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @04:41AM (#23590732)
I have that exact same kit and I love it. The little plastic fingers that hold the bits to the lid break pretty easily so I've removed the whole top tray and put the bits in some of these. https://www.amazon.com/10pcs-Holes-Screwdriver-Holder-Storag...

I'm debating on removing the bottom tray and 3d printing a new one to hold even more bits.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by znpy on Saturday June 20, 2020 @07:35PM (#23588365)
meh.

as a thinkpad user, i almost always used any random screwdriver i had around, as long as it fitted.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by deathanatos on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:58PM (#23589090)
Thinkpads are the rare exception. Most of (all of?) the screws are simple Phillips, and the manual provides good instructions on how to disassemble. I've worked on other laptops from other manufacturers; IIRC, I had a Toshiba with Torx screws. No manual, and it also took me forever to find the last two screws as one had a rubber stopper glued over it (that you had to half destroy to get out) and the other had a sticker placed over it.

MBPs have the weird "pentalobe" screws, AIUI.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aspenmayer on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:52PM (#23589055)
ThinkPads are historically some of the most repairable laptops. They are essentially designed to be taken apart with a single Phillips screwdriver and no special tools.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by m0xte on Sunday June 21, 2020 @05:14AM (#23590871)
Not any more. T470+ are horrible and they’ve started using glue in some of the newer X1’s apparently. I haven’t been blessed with a broken one yet though which is probably good.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aspenmayer on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:51AM (#23591272)
That’s why I said essentially. They could do better, as could most in the industry. Competition is usually good in this regard for most laptops. The thinner they are, the less easy the repair can be.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by tlavoie on Monday June 22, 2020 @02:31AM (#23597770)
That, and the service manual is online.

Even when asking about a part that was no longer available from them, I received a message from them about what to look for on EBay.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by geocrasher on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:18AM (#23590014)
Most HP's and Dell's I've worked on were similarly simple to repair. Thinkpads are particularly good however :)
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:00PM (#23588796)
And a magnetic bowl! So handy.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by cgriswald on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:43PM (#23584887)
I'm not sure Apple is representative of the category, although it could just be that the GP only has a narrow range of experience with laptops. A generous interpretation would exclude from "particular special" anything which is standard and not bespoke, even if it is less common. In any case, the bits are readily available.

I've been using this guy for years: https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Screwdriver-Professional-Precisi...

Currently $18. I haven't come across a device for which this kit didn't have a bit and the driver feels good in the hand. The outer case is hard plastic, but the inner "lining" is soft plastic, unfortunately. I wouldn't mind a similar kit with a better case, or just a carrier that will handle this kit neatly if anyone has suggestions.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by larrywright on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:21PM (#23588886)
I have the same set, and agree on the case. If they spent $5 more on the case they could probably charge twice as much.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by GeekyBear on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:19PM (#23588874)
>So are you just glad that Apple didn't decide to create a new screwdriver standard for each Macbook model? :)

Compared to Microsoft? They created a laptop that was impossible to open at all without destroying it.

>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” The lowest scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro

It’s clear that Microsoft never intended for the Surface Laptop to be repaired because it’s a completely sealed device. There aren’t even any screws to take out, so iFixit had to slice the fabric cover open to peel it away from the metal chassis. That’s never going back together. The inner metal shield is also devoid of screws, relying instead upon spot welds and glue. Again, this is probably not going to be reassembled.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by slivanes on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:00PM (#23589102)
You must be talking about the Surface laptop first and second generation only.

The latest generation is actually quite repairable as far as laptops go: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3++...

Microsoft are improving in this regard, unlike Apple.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by tinus_hn on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:49PM (#23593739)
Did they start offering screen repairs for the tablets yet? Preferably for less than the price of the whole thing.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jessriedel on Sunday June 21, 2020 @02:26AM (#23590285)
What about my comment makes you think I intended to make a Apple vs. Microsoft comparison?
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by bdcravens on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:15PM (#23584713)
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by hombre_fatal on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:27PM (#23584774)
A popular meme but seems somewhat overstated.

Most people don't have small pen-sized phillips screwdrivers either on hand and would need to purchase one for this case as well.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jessriedel on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:32PM (#23584807)
Yes, maybe greater than 50% of people. But if Apple used a standard then you could get them from your hardware store, or your neighbor. And you could keep them to work on your eyeglasses too.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jessriedel on Saturday June 20, 2020 @04:07PM (#23586810)
Also, the fact that Apple bothered to use a weird screw is evidence that this represents a substantive barrier to many people. I mean, most people are never going to open their laptop in the first place; of those that would, a large fraction will have standard small screw drivers on hand.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aspenmayer on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:56PM (#23589076)
For all the parents of curious young hackers, a minor hurdle preventing easy access to internals has likely saved an untold number of laptops from unauthorized disassembly. It’s good to learn at a young age to have permission beforehand, instead of exceeding authorized access. A little help from the manufacturer goes a long way in that regard.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @05:21AM (#23590908)
Unauthorized disassembly? What kind of incredible nonsense is that? You own it, you have the automatic right to disassemble it. Right to repair and all that. You sure you're on the right website?
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aspenmayer on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:48AM (#23591259)
If your kid disassembled your hardware without your permission or your knowing, and damaged it or your data irreparably, that would be less preferable to the same outcome with your knowledge and consent, wouldn’t it?
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @06:55AM (#23591288)
I was that kid. That sort of unauthorized disassembly is what powered (and probably still powers) my career. I suspect that holds true for a relatively large percentage of the HN crowd.

That's a clear strawman though, unauthorized in this context clearly meant 'not authorized by the manufacturer', it's not the parents that install safety screws to keep the kids out, it's the manufacturers that do it to keep the owners out.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aspenmayer on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:27AM (#23591399)
I wrote the comment. I didn’t mean that in that way; I mean the intention of the manufacturer may coincidentally overlap with that of a hypothetical parent of a precocious child or children. I didn’t mean to advocate for the practice of safety or otherwise nonstandard fasteners in consumer electronics. I’m against that practice, even if it may have potential upsides as in my example.

I was also that kid, and now I use computer hardware and software skills daily in a professional capacity. Don’t get me wrong, I certainly agree with you on all points.

I don’t know what reasonable justification there is for doing this for consumer devices generally, from the owner’s perspective. Maybe it makes devices more appealing in a corporate context, for the same reason some secure environments forbid devices with cameras or recording hardware, and also forbid (re-)recordable media. Maybe it reduces loss in the supply chain for the companies to do so. Some credit card payment terminals have tamper-evident designs built-in prevent or deter dumping hardware encryption/decryption keys, firmware, and other kinds of tampering, to reduce fraud and unauthorized access, for the owner’s sake and the networks’ sake. I would like to hear some more or better reasons if anyone has insights into these topics.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jacquesm on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:39AM (#23591448)
The reasons are simple: to gain more control over the secondary market and to get a piece of the action in case of repairs out of warranty.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by ACow_Adonis on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:21PM (#23589205)
but the entire way many of us learnt to be hackers was through unauthorised disassembly :(
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aspenmayer on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:54PM (#23589370)
Good point, and it's one well taken.

It's preferable to have a close relationship with your kids so they don't hide things from you, except things you're better off not knowing. To the point at hand, part of hacking, and life generally, is discretion. I learned not to do something I shouldn't as much from my upbringing, as I learned from my own testing. I was the kid who touched the hot stove after being told not to, as well as the electric fence. It wasn't such much defiance as discovery. I didn't find the potential for harm especially dissuading. I'd rather suffer a little harm in a controlled way than not know something so simple about my constructed environment.

I was kind of a weird kid, now that I think about it. I like to think that I'm not the only one.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by dawnerd on Sunday June 21, 2020 @08:30AM (#23591657)
You can get them in a lot more places than you’d think.

https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc-security-bit-set-with-c...

Edit: Actually looks like HF breaks links when you direct link so just search for security bits.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by delfinom on Saturday June 20, 2020 @11:19PM (#23589472)
> But if Apple used a standard then you could get them from your hardware store, or your neighbor

Fatal flaw, corona closed the hardware store and everyone is buying from Amazon ;)

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by HenryBemis on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:39PM (#23584854)
I will assume that many in this forum have at least 20 different screwdrivers in their toolbox. I still have. T-6 hollow screwdriver used only in some Compaq compact PCs 18 years ago. And since I am still the go-to techie for many people around me, I see that people are amazed by "oh what does that do" (especially for the RJ11&45 crimp tool).
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by zaroth on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:22PM (#23588612)
Tried to crimp an RJ45 cable this weekend and went through 3 plugs and couldn’t get the wires to line up. I wonder if I got the plugs too cheaply but it seemed like there was nothing to keep the wires aligned. I haven’t had to crimp an RJ45 in maybe 10 years, maybe I just lost the touch.

Thankfully I had some RJ45 punch down terminators so I could cheat with that. Of course I didn’t have the little plastic 110 punchdown tool to seat the wires...

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by def8cefe on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:26PM (#23589234)
They're security torx, iirc T7 size. You can get these bits at pretty much any hardware store.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by fermienrico on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:32PM (#23589264)
Why not non-secure T7 screws?
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by def8cefe on Saturday June 20, 2020 @11:13PM (#23589448)
I have no idea, I'm a technician not an evangelist.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jandrese on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:40PM (#23589303)
The security versions have a raised part in the middle that makes it impossible to use the regular Torx bit.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by fermienrico on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:50PM (#23589350)
I don’t think we are getting to the bottom of what the parent’s parent comment is talking about.

Apple decided to use T7 security screws instead of just normal T7 torx. Why!? I am not looking for answers to the differences and what makes a security bit different. I am asking a more abstract rhetorical question - Why make it harder for the consumer to take the laptop apart? Especially, if it’s not impossible - just a little bit harder.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by evan_ on Saturday June 20, 2020 @11:32PM (#23589525)
the more surface area that’s contacted between the driver and the fastener, the more friction and the better they hold on to the automatic drivers used to assemble the devices. On such a tiny screw the center pin probably adds an extra 20% or more surface area.

I don’t know if that’s absolutely the reason but if they wanted to keep people out they could easily make a custom head that looked like the Apple logo or something. Nintendo has used tri-wing screws for decades because they expressly do want to keep people out of their devices. You can stop get a tri-wing driver but you have to special order it.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by def8cefe on Monday June 22, 2020 @08:43PM (#23608768)
The security torx bits are much weaker, I've actually snapped quite a few of them which has never happened to me with any other type.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by evan_ on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @01:04PM (#23630688)
I've only ever worked with screws that small on older macbooks that had user-replaceable hard drives and RAM and never had any problems, but I don't doubt it could be an issue. The factories that assemble this stuff surely have screwdrivers with torque-limiting clutches though.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by def8cefe on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:39PM (#23654688)
Not sure what I snapped them on. They weren't great bits either, I used to pick up terrible security bit sets on Ebay before I realised every Canadian Tire carries a fantastic Mastercraft set with most precision-sized security bits for ~$30 CAD. I've worked on other stuff with security torx just can't remember what. HDD sleds for servers at least, definitely some other stuff over the years.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by tw04 on Sunday June 21, 2020 @04:48PM (#23595286)
They’re standard torx bit. Not particularly special and I’ve come across all manner of gadgets that use the same thing.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by cameldrv on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:10AM (#23589976)
I got one of these: https://www.tekton.com/everybit-tech-rescue-kit-28301

It has everything you need to open essentially any computer and iPhones as well, and it's very compact.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by _bxg1 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @01:23PM (#23585122)
They make screwdriver kits specifically for working on electronics and many of them include an Apple-style head. It's annoying that you need to buy one, but they aren't hard to find.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by gauravjain13 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:01PM (#23588799)
Apple uses Torx screws, as do several other products.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by lambda_tango on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:11PM (#23588845)
Since when? They used Pentalobe on just about everything the last decade.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentalobe_security_screw

Though it's gotten easier to get pentalobe screwdrivers, albeit made of Chinesium.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by wtallis on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:15PM (#23588859)
Apple products often use pentalobe only for the outer casing, and standard torx for all the interior screws.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by dexterdog on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:56PM (#23589077)
I have always been able to remove my MacBookPro screws with a small slotted driver.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:56PM (#23588764)
You’re hyperventilating about a $5 tool.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jve on Sunday June 21, 2020 @07:37AM (#23591439)
Another point: dead battery completely tanks permance and makes macbook unusable. Could only turn on with charger. Had some 10+ years old macbook - cpu was throttled to some 500+ mhz (with charger attached)

After changing battery, computer flies again.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by AdmiralAsshat on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:03PM (#23589116)
Very true. I had a Toshiba laptop that was simply on for the better part of its 8-10 year lifespan, with the result that it overheated a few times due to clogged fans and it was never the same since. Even after I thoroughly blew out the vents, the thermal paste probably spread a bit, and the ambient temperature was always still way above what it should be.

I finally let it die over Christmas. Or rather, I planned to power it up one last time, get fully updated on Windows 7, and then power it down forever and yank the HDD out to put in an enclosure. Of course, it chose to die in the middle of updates. Feh.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by thenoblesunfish on Sunday June 21, 2020 @03:35AM (#23590495)
On the topic of mechanical keyboards, when I was considering cleaning mine, I was surprised to read that a vacuum cleaner is the way to go, and compressed air (which I was about to use) is to be avoided "at all costs"!

https://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/updated-guide-how-to-clean-...

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by amiga_500 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:28PM (#23584779)
Using compressed air on a laptop or pc is so satisfying. The way the dust disappears and the evaporation of the moisture! Fast results.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by ectocardia on Saturday June 20, 2020 @11:19PM (#23589471)
My flatmate tried to "compressed air" his laptop once using his lab's compressor. Didn't turn the laptop off. Only two fan blades survived.

We glued the other blades back on to tide him over until a replacement arrived, but each day one or two would break off and we'd have to give the laptop a good shake to expel them.

...it's often difficult to know how precise one must be when advising flatmates about compressed air.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by Symbiote on Saturday June 20, 2020 @12:36PM (#23584826)
Those "gas duster" cans don't contain compressed air. It's a mixture of volatile solvents.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by userbinator on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:15PM (#23588857)
They used to be a CFC like R12 before the ozone depletion was known, now they are a HFC like R134a or R152a.

...which also means they are a cheap source of refrigerant. Look up "charging A/C with gas duster" if you want to go down a rabbithole...

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by siberianbear on Saturday June 20, 2020 @08:55PM (#23588758)
Yes, it's true. You can see this for yourself if you turn the can upside down while you press down the button on the top. Then, it will spray liquid solvent out, which will immediately vaporize, and therefore rapidly chill anything it's on.

In my former life debugging signal timing issues on circuit boards I used to use this trick (using those "gas duster" cans upside down) to chill individual components to try to find out where the problem was.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by ksec on Sunday June 21, 2020 @08:10AM (#23591575)
>thermal paste degradation

Are there any thermal paste that doesn't degrade? Or minimal degrade within 5 years. We can fix dust with cleaning, we can get to a point where our computing needs could be done fanless ( Current iPad Pro ). But what about thermal paste degradation?

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by dr_zoidberg on Sunday June 21, 2020 @11:10PM (#23597101)
Once you open your notebook for cleaning you can remove the heatpipies and reapply thermal paste. Of course, you need to throughly clean the old paste, and need to take extra care (wrt a desktop).

My 3yo notebook could be needing such a treatment. OTOH, I could just buy a new one notebook since there are some interesting things happening in mobile space this year (Renoir and Tiger Lake).

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by m463 on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:40PM (#23589003)
> mechanical keyboards is that the keys can be removed

that's true, but I don't do it all the time because it seems the keys are more likely to pop off on their own.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by 29athrowaway on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:20PM (#23589199)
I have a dust blower, they're very inexpensive.

I don't think vacuums are a great idea for electronics.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by lightwin on Sunday June 21, 2020 @04:35PM (#23595187)
A vacuum cleaner or dust blower will also pull more dust particles from the air and throw at your electronics. A can however is supposed to be clean air.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by aloukissas on Sunday June 21, 2020 @01:01AM (#23589934)
"especially if you have pets" -- I clean up my laptop quarterly, TONS of cat hair :)
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by TedDoesntTalk on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:47PM (#23589033)
> a can of compressed air

Is there any truth to the rumors I’ve heard that these cans of compressed air expel things that are detrimental to health (not just nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon dioxide)

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by tylerhou on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:51PM (#23589052)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,1-Difluoroethane

> [1,1-Difluoroethane, or DFE] is also used as a propellant for aerosol sprays and in gas duster products.

> Because of inhalant abuse, a bitterant is added to some brands; however even this measure is not legally required and has not prevented widespread use of this product as a drug.

> In a DuPont study, rats were exposed to up to 25,000 ppm (67,485 mg m−3) for six hours daily, five days a week for two years. This has become the no-observed-adverse-effect level for this substance. Prolonged exposure to 1,1-difluoroethane has been linked in humans to the development of coronary disease and angina.[12]

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by koolba on Saturday June 20, 2020 @09:49PM (#23589046)
I'd be impressed if there's a cheaper thing to fill into a can of compressed air then regular air.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by deathanatos on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:04PM (#23589124)
Then you'll be impressed: http://www.3m.com/us/office/advisory/DusterFAQs-fromInhalant... ; http://www.3m.com/us/office/advisory/3MDustRemoverAv152aMSDS...

My understanding is that this is because a typical compressed air can could not actually withstand the pressured required to hold normal air, compressed.

Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by koolba on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:26PM (#23589228)
Ha! Great to know that Cunningham's is still the law of the land.
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by timreilly on Sunday June 21, 2020 @12:12AM (#23589687)
Ha!
Re:Cleaning My MacBook After 16800 Hours of Use by jerzyt on Saturday June 20, 2020 @10:05PM (#23589137)
Compressed air is definitely cheaper than any other gas you could use, but you can't liquefy air at room temperature, at least not reasonably. As result, a can of compressed air would have very low capacity compared to a gas which can be liquefied at room temp.

A gas like propane for your BBQ liquefies at room temp, and once it's liquid you can put a lot of it into a cylinder without increasing the pressure.

That's why compressed air is not used in the spray cans.