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Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:43PM (#23557131)
That's strange. All of those points are wrong.

Starlink isn't designed to offer lower latency or lower prices than existing terrestrial wired or wireless ISPs (at least, decent ones). Instead it's designed to offer a low latency wireless service in places where that has never been available at all. Which is most of the land area of the Earth, and all of the ocean. It may also be cheaper and/or faster than some very bad terrestrial ISPs, because there are a lot of those out there, but that's not what it's designed for.

Impact on earth-based telescopes has been discussed endlessly, to the point where it seems like there's a law that you can't mention Starlink on the Internet without talking about it. And SpaceX responded by talking to the astronomers most affected by Starlink and adding a sunshade that should prevent the satellites from ruining their images. Which is more than any other satellite operator has ever done, AFAIK, and there are many satellites much brighter than Starlink in the sky today.

The Pentagon is certainly interested in Starlink, but commercial service has much higher revenue potential. There are several competitors planning to do roughly the same thing as Starlink, so the business plan is at least plausible.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by sneak on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:38PM (#23558552)
> Starlink isn't designed to offer lower latency or lower prices than existing terrestrial wired or wireless ISPs (at least, decent ones). Instead it's designed to offer a low latency wireless service in places where that has never been available at all. Which is most of the land area of the Earth, and all of the ocean.

It is widely believed that a huge chunk of Starlink’s revenue, if not ~all of it, will come from leasing faster-than-currently-available low latency links to HFT companies for nyc-lon and such. This is why their first orbital planes being launched are for the north atlantic and CONUS.

Providing internet to the underserved areas is secondary; the cash will come from beating terrestrial fiber links (even idealized great circle ones) between markets that are already extremely well connected.

One such private low latency link between Seacaucus and LSEG will probably pay 2-5x what everyone else on the planet combined pays for internet access in underserved areas.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by kanox on Thursday June 18, 2020 @04:52AM (#23561142)
> It is widely believed that a huge chunk of Starlink’s revenue, if not ~all of it, will come from leasing faster-than-currently-available low latency links to HFT companies for nyc-lon and such.

This is speculation. Without inter-satellite links the latency between New York and London on Starlink would be quite disappointing.

> This is why their first orbital planes being launched are for the north atlantic and CONUS.

A LEO constellation can only be targeted at specific latitudes (not longitudes). They're just targeting mid-latitudes because that's where potential customers live.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by hooper on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:42PM (#23558903)
The data on this map makes it look like they're going for pretty uniform coverage already. Is there a source for the early orbital planes having a specific purpose? The earth rotates underneath each plane, and the times of day it will be available to any given ground path change over the course of a year.

It does seem pretty convenient that the inclination they've chosen lines the satellites up nearly in a straight path from New York to London, but I imagine this would be relevant to many transatlantic communications.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by Alain-lf on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:20PM (#23559146)
There is a purpose, but it's not HFT... It's orbital mechanics.

You can't have efficient coverage of the whole planet without launching all of your satellites at fairly high inclination (>45°). There will be more satellites per area near the poles and so that's why Starlink will be available at very high (and very low) latitude before it's available at the equator.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by tuatoru on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:40PM (#23559264)
> It is widely believed that a huge chunk of Starlink’s revenue, if not ~all of it, will come from leasing faster-than-currently-available low latency links to HFT companies for nyc-lon and such. This is why their first orbital planes being launched are for the north atlantic and CONUS.

True? I'd heard that the initial target market was passenger planes over the ocean, cruise ships, and similar maritime and aerial activity that has to use geosynchronous satellites at present.

Covid-19 has thrown a spanner into the works of that plan, for a while. I'm sure people with money won't be turned away.

Longer term, remembering that Musk hails from South Africa, I thought the plan was to bring internet to failed states or barely functional areas in Africa (outback Namibia/Zimbabwe/Tanzania etc) and possibly also the Americas and the Middle East).

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:40PM (#23559590)
The long term plan is to sell service to anyone who will buy it, to fund Starship for Mars. The ship and plane market can't be served by the current constellation because it doesn't have links between satellites. This also excludes the high frequency trading market (proving that SpaceX is not relying on traders to make their revenue goals). The initial market is rural areas of the US, and then other countries as they expand their ground station footprint.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by drcross on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:50PM (#23559637)
Musk has recently commented that his main goal for starlink is not to go bankrupt. Everything else therefore, would feed from that.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by m4rtink on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:49AM (#23559882)
There are multiple GEO sats that already provide service for popular airliner routes and for cruise ships.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:59AM (#23560509)
... with 600ms latency. Starlink will blow them out of the water.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by m4rtink on Thursday June 18, 2020 @11:39AM (#23564086)
Oh, sure, the latency will be lower - it's just that without these satellites it was simply not possible to get continuous coverage on long over ocean flights, so something is better than nothing.

While for airplanes I think the latency might not be that problematic (I think VoIP in plane package full of people would not be very welcome) you indeed want low latency connection on a cruise ship.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Thursday June 18, 2020 @11:59AM (#23564351)
Regular web browsing also benefits massively from lower latency, not just VoIP.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by walrus01 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:29AM (#23561391)
NYC-LON are already connected by shortwave systems built using huge-ass yagi-uda antennas and special bespoke modem + amplifier systems. Shortwave based systems have even obsoleted well known HFT microwave paths such as Chicago-NYC.

source: I know some of the people who built several of the Chicago-NYC links.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by paul_f on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:43PM (#23559283)
Be careful, everytime I make this point I get berated by the Spacex fan boys. The reality is, making high speed trading faster adds no true value to society. And therefore I find this entire project sad.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:35PM (#23559563)
SpaceX is launching the initial constellation without the laser links required for the hypothetical low latency service for traders. This would never happen if traders were the only or primary market. SpaceX has stated that their target is the consumer market and their actions are in line with that.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by sneak on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:29AM (#23560055)
You don't need inter-satellite links for low latency, as Mark Handley has elegantly pointed out in his incredible video. I don't think internet access will amount to even 50% of the revenue of Starlink.

https://youtu.be/m05abdGSOxY

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:56AM (#23560490)
You don't need satellites at all to beat fiber. Terrestrial microwave does it too. Starlink can't beat microwave except for places where it's impossible to install microwave, like over the ocean. But without cross links Starlink won't work over the ocean either.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by shaklee3 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:51AM (#23559892)
Source? There is no indication whatsoever that the service will be cheap enough to be for the consumer market. In fact, all serious cost analyses show it's not.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:06AM (#23560537)
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by drcross on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:52PM (#23559657)
Specious comment because if SpaceX funds itself from HFT their goal is to make life interplanetary which is arguably the best thing to do for society.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by jbuzbee on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:52PM (#23557773)
Vey interesting analysis of Starlink coverage and latency:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05abdGSOxY

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by watersb on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:09PM (#23557392)
Radio Astronomy has to deal with this, never mind the sun shades. Pervasive radio everywhere has been a growing problem in general at least since GPS.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by cryptonector on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:07PM (#23557897)
Time to move the observatories to space. If only there was a launch platform for those.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by denkmoon on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:59PM (#23558673)
The only problem there is cost, upfront and ongoing. JSW is super expensive. We were very lucky Hubble wasn't a complete write off and even then the fix was very expensive.

All that vs. laying down some concrete and a telescope in a remote location.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:50PM (#23559638)
The cost of JWST is way out of control. You could build 10 space telescopes for less if you actually cared about efficiency and didn't need everything to be perfect for the first and only launch. Especially since the crazy folding mechanism would be completely unnecessary if you just launched them on Starship, which is big enough to hold JWST's mirror unfolded and possibly even the sunshade.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by Rebelgecko on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:00AM (#23559931)
If you built 10 space telescopes for the price of JWST, I believe that EACH one would still be more expensive than the most expensive terrestrial telescope ever
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by ustolemyname on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:28AM (#23560347)
Giant Magellen and Thirty Meter Telescope are both $billion+ projects.

So, no.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by Rebelgecko on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:33AM (#23560374)
I was only thinking of telescopes that currently exist, since it's hard to determine the cost of something before it's built. Inflation and such tends to make a direct comparison a bit trickier— it's not fair to compare JWST dollars spent in 2000 with dollars that won't be spent until 2025. Plus, even though these sorts of things typically end up being more expensive than the original budget, I'm being optimistic :)
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by ygra on Thursday June 18, 2020 @09:41AM (#23563009)
I'm not sure switching launch vehicles is a realistic option for a project being in development for 24 years by now. Especially not to a not-yet-existing rocket.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by hoseja on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:02AM (#23560520)
I think it's mostly about funneling money to Northrop-Grumman.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by godelski on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:10PM (#23558734)
> The only problem there is cost

If only there were launch platforms that could put up smaller telescopes (optical and radio).

I mean you can do a lot with telescopes that are much smaller than Hubble Class or JSW. A lot of people are doing work with telescopes that are much smaller. Also, as long as frequencies and locations are published, much of this noise (not all!) can be removed. Sure, the VLA is going to have a major headache, but LIGO wouldn't exist if we didn't know how to remove noise (LIGO had to deal with noise from cars many miles away and all kinds of vibrations because it is ridiculously sensitive).

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by ISL on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:10AM (#23559977)
LIGO can isolate itself from seismic backgrounds, but it has no artificial gravitational-wave foregrounds. (Yes, Newtonian Noise is a concern for future generations, but it is expected to be modeled and subtracted well-enough.)

Arrays like Starlink are a persistent foreground for the big radio telescopes. SKA and the like are in the Outback for a reason, but for this there is no escape.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by golem14 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:47AM (#23560437)
I'd expect that starlink could be disabled within a few hundred miles around green banks etc. Would that help?
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by godelski on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:14AM (#23560579)
Typically for high resolution images you actually take multiple images. So it would be more work, but you can definitely remove foreground objects. This is like how you can take a bunch of photos of a landscape with people moving around in it and remove all the people by just looking at what isn't changing in the images.

I'm not saying it is easy, but it is definitely possible.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by garmaine on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:59PM (#23559001)
> The only problem there is cost

If only there was a space launch company bringing orders of magnitude reduction in cost.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by denkmoon on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:05PM (#23559054)
Not the launch cost, the cost of the satellite.

JWST is 6500kg. Quick googling shows SpaceX costs about $3k per kg, so the launch cost is about $20M.

The total project cost for JWST is $10bn according to wikipedia.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by garmaine on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:10PM (#23559094)
Having worked at NASA, let me tell you that number is 100% BS on all levels. You have to go out of your way to make a satellite cost that much, which they did.

Look at how, say, Planetary Resources was putting together their much smaller telescopes and you'd get an idea of how it could be done on the cheap. Then to scale up you'd focus on cost effectiveness instead of maximizing capability at all cost. Do multiple cheap launches ($100m each) instead of spending billions on a complicated automated unfurling mechanism, etc.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by cryptonector on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:25PM (#23559167)
I bet SpaceX could assemble a huge telescope in space from smaller telescopes, and they could do it for much less than NASA ever could. NASA is a jobs program.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by mike_d on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:14AM (#23561285)
> NASA is a jobs program

NASA is first and foremost our nation's science program. Everything from the network card driver your AWS instance is using to the planes flying into hurricanes to determine how strong they will hit was built with major contributions from NASA engineers.

LASIK eye surgery, the nutritional supplements in baby formula, solar panels affordable for consumers, OpenStack, even the BowFlex were all developed by NASA or under NASA funding programs.

You could at best say NASA is a jobs program for HN readers. :)

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by garmaine on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:44PM (#23567021)
It is correct to call NASA’s human space flight a jobs program. It is specifically engineered to maximize the number of jobs spread across key congressional districts and states. And unfortunately this makes it extremely wasteful.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by postingawayonhn on Thursday June 18, 2020 @06:11AM (#23561631)
It only costs that much because launches are expensive. If you live in a world where your satellite costs $300m+ to launch your going to spend a lot on the satellite to make sure that it is reliable and has a long life.

If suddenly launches only cost $50m then you might build a cheaper and slightly less reliable satellite as you know you can always launch another for only $50m

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by BurningFrog on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:25PM (#23559513)
With cheaper launches, you can throw up several simpler instruments per year, instead of a FANTASTIC one per generation.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:59AM (#23560508)
Or with cheaper launches you can assemble it in space instead of using that crazy elaborate unfolding mechanism that accounts for much of the cost.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by Rebelgecko on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:57AM (#23559918)
Radio telescopes work better on the ground
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:58AM (#23560498)
How about a 1km diameter radio telescope on the far side of the moon? https://www.space.com/nasa-telescope-far-side-of-moon.html
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by SiempreViernes on Thursday June 18, 2020 @04:49AM (#23561122)
That's just one though, meanwhile SpaceX is complicating all ground astronomy, you can't just replace all observatories on Earth with one big dish and expect things to be better than before.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Thursday June 18, 2020 @10:49AM (#23563572)
According to a broad study of astronomical surveys[1], the impact of Starlink on the vast majority of observatories is quite minor. There were exceptions, like the upcoming Vera Rubin Observatory in Chile which uses a wide angle at twilight so is particularly impacted.

Starlink used that study to come up with the night shade idea to mitigate those impacts.

In that survey, radio telescopes were in the "minorly affected" list.

1: https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.07446

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by SiempreViernes on Friday June 19, 2020 @05:56PM (#23579255)
You must have pasted the wrong link, because the linked article mentioned "survey" 4 times and 3 of those was in a short sentence saying searches for near-Earth objects will loose all twilight...

The severity of the noise for radio was not graded in the slightest, and the word "minorly" is never used.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by jcims on Thursday June 18, 2020 @06:47AM (#23561824)
Only if they are operating when they are in range of the telescope. The satellites know where they are in space, they could just shut off when passing over. Usually not many customers where these things are installed anyway.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by rlt on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:27PM (#23558064)
Since they use phased array antennas they may be able to create fairly small exclusion zones around observatories.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:58PM (#23557269)
Starlink will has promised better latency, bandwidth and prices compared to existing satellite internet. Perhaps that's where the confusion on the first point came from.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by arcticfox on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:10PM (#23557412)
I'm really confused what is going on here.

It's really baffling how someone motivated and talented enough to make such a tracking site would have such an odd opinion section.

Obviously, Starlink is not the best choice in all situations, but it is so compelling on some dimensions that such a flatly negative opinion is bizarre for anyone with even a cursory understanding of what's going on.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by shaklee3 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:49AM (#23559884)
What dimension? It's not competitive for anyone who can get high-speed internet right now, and it's not clear if it will complete with traditional satellite in cost.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by 2StepsOutOfLine on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:10AM (#23559978)
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by shaklee3 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @09:07AM (#23562700)
This is demonstrably false. Look at the YouTube video posted this week that simulated delayed. The best delay, with only hops between satellites, was 40ms or so. That didn't account for any of the higher later delays or transport network.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by modeless on Thursday June 18, 2020 @11:55AM (#23564298)
You're comparing apples to oranges. The 40ms in that video is for Seattle to NY via multiple satellite hops, which is a hypothetical configuration. Elon's tweet is talking about one hop only, from satellite to ground station, which is the intended configuration for v1. There will be dozens or hundreds of ground stations in the US to support this.

For existing GEO satellites, the equivalent measurement is 600ms. That's the relevant comparison. With just 20ms added on top of regular internet latency it would still be usable for competitive gaming at all but the highest levels, as the tweet says.

Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Thursday June 18, 2020 @10:51AM (#23563596)
Good thing then that SpaceX has enough ground stations that no hops are required in the continental US.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by shaklee3 on Thursday June 18, 2020 @10:56AM (#23563642)
I'm referring to the satellite to gateway hops. There absolutely are many of those just to cross the continental US. The satellite altitude is such that it only covers a small part of CONUS before it has to have off to another satellite.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by bryanlarsen on Thursday June 18, 2020 @11:43AM (#23564137)
Why would they use satellite hops for those? They'll just put your packet onto an internet backbone fiber. Starlink is last mile service, not backbone.
Re:Realtime Starlink Satellite Map by ehsankia on Thursday June 18, 2020 @01:13AM (#23559994)
I don't see why it couldn't. Maybe people here are used to the top of top internet, but I've lived in many places where the best I could get was ~5mbps, with 60ms latency and 60$+.

Those are very easy numbers to beat. Yes it might not beat prices and latencies for a super competitive city with true competition, but those are honestly rare and few between. The majority of north american cities have shitty internet at high prices and high latency.

Also, slap this router on a Tesla car, allowing it to have connection anywhere it drives, and you're golden.