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Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by lqet on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:23AM (#23550502)
Tangential: what is up with this inflationary expectation that everything should be "fun" and "exciting" and "thrilling"? I feel like western society as a whole is thinking more and more in terms of a six year old. For adults, there lies incredible satisfaction in mastering any but the most exploitative professions or jobs and fulfilling them dutifully, even if they are be no means "fun".
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by kirse on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:47AM (#23552784)
what is up with this inflationary expectation that everything should be "fun" and "exciting" and "thrilling"

A couple years ago I dubbed this trend "Flanders Computing" [1]. I haven't really given much thought about its origins, but it's probably got to do with the increasing demand for happiness that we Americans hold dear.

Collectively I think it's entered the American psyche that the answer to happiness is to avoid anything that makes us anxious or uncomfortable, which results in that toddler-level approach in many things. i.e. Ban things labeled "toxic", ban the boo-boos, keep everyone safe with happy feelings in this space only. But admittedly my thoughts are incomplete.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353106

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by _def on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:23PM (#23553217)
Your comment reminds me of a great quote:

"The desire for more positive experience is in itself a negative experience. And, paradoxically, the acceptance of one's negative experience is itself a positive experience."

from "The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A Fuck" by Mark Mason

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by glouwbug on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:29PM (#23559536)
Sounds like new age stoicism? Roman philosophers, 2000 years ago, were teaching us to curb our desires for they ultimately lead to dissapointment when things don't work out.

The Enchiridion of Epictetus is a good place to start. You'll also learn how to feel when your favorite mug drops, or when a friend pokes your eye in a wrestling match - spoiler: the answer is not giving it a fuck (for lack of a better term).

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by atulatul on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:05PM (#23552985)
>increasing demand for happiness that we Americans hold dear

"The problem is not that we want to be happy; it is that we want to be happier." Not my own observation. But I like it.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by philipov on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @02:17PM (#23554749)
Maybe that's because our sensory systems can't really feel states, only differences between states. Hot only exists in comparison to our memory of cold. Without that comparison, there is simply numbness.

If that's a general principle, it implies that happiness can only be felt as an improvement over the past. That would also explain why sadness is necessary for us to be able to feel happiness, and why we're attracted to tragic art. Someone who is the same level of happy all the time will become numb to it, but constantly becoming happier is unsustainable in the same way as a drug addiction.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by TimTheTinker on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:57PM (#23554494)
> I think it's entered the American psyche that the answer to happiness is to avoid anything that makes us anxious or uncomfortable

Yes. For examples of this trend, look no further than American college campuses, especially in the liberal arts.

"Microagressions", "safe spaces", ... it does sound like a lot of people feel untenably fragile when entering the marketplace of ideas.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by tekromancr on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @02:29PM (#23554918)
> Ban things labeled "toxic", ban the boo-boos, keep everyone safe with happy feelings in this space only. But admittedly my thoughts are incomplete.

I think your thoughts are incomplete. What they are missing is the knowledge of and empathy for people who are actually harmed by these behaviors.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:00PM (#23556690)
>What they are missing is the knowledge of and empathy for people who are actually harmed by these behaviors.

Don't worry, most people asking for such bans don't have any real empathy for people who are actually harmed by these behaviors either.

And inversely, most people who are actually harmed, don't care for such bans, they prefer substantive and inherent (felt and voluntary) changes, not bans.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by growlist on Thursday June 18, 2020 @09:29AM (#23562893)
But then plenty of the same people that seek to police speech online and to claim the moral high ground are capable of and comfortable with quite horrible and unjustified forms of harassment, e.g. extreme levels of doxxing, getting people sacked for hurty tweets, even hounding people to suicide.

Let's not pretend there aren't plenty of cynics that employ woke culture to sinister ends.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by denkmoon on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:01PM (#23559019)
Think of the children won't you!
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by lolsal on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:22AM (#23551041)
Why do you think this is specifically a 'western society' thing? Browse Japanese sites and online tools and there is just as much gamification and 'thrilling' graphics and animation - if not more. Github looks like a technical white-paper in comparison.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coliveira on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:22PM (#23554023)
Modern Japanese culture is considered to be part of "western society", for better or worse.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by lolsal on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:29PM (#23559200)
The converse statement is something like "Japan is not an eastern society" which just sounds... laughably incorrect.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by fragmede on Thursday June 18, 2020 @12:31AM (#23559807)
Of course it sounds ridiculous. Boolean algebra says the validity of a statement's converse is independent of the original. P → Q, tells us little about Q → P.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by trophycase on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:28PM (#23554110)
Is it really though?
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by aspaceman on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:51PM (#23554421)
You could make the argument. Japan was actively xenophobic and exclusionary to practically all but the Dutch. And after that their biggest influence was U.S. occupation during the 50s. Lots of “western” influence there.

(Obviously in actual critical work, the word western isn’t useful at all as it doesn’t have much meaning)

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by Bayart on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:16AM (#23560587)
I'd say their biggest influence was Classical Chinese culture.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by bluntfang on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:43AM (#23551265)
Do you not consider Japanese to be Western? I mean, America literally rebuilt the moral, ethical, and political environment after dropping the bomb.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:38AM (#23551960)
Japanese culture is quite different from American culture.

We did rebuild them, and McArthur is revered as a god, over there.

But they really have their own culture, and some aspects can strike us as quite strange (as, I am sure, some aspects of our culture weird them out).

I worked for a Japanese company, and went there, multiple times a year, for about twenty years (all Tokyo, so I can't speak for the rest of Japan). I think that there are a number of Japanese and US/EU expats that live in Japan, on this board.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by soraminazuki on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:37AM (#23552689)
> McArthur is revered as a god, over there

While he's undeniably a famous historical figure in Japan, my impression is that the majority of Japanese people don't have any strong opinions about him. After all, how many people actually care so much about historical figures when they're busy watching cat videos on YouTube? But for the people who do have some interest, I assume many have mixed feelings on the matter, which is natural for citizens of a former military dictatorship turned democracy only because they lost the world war. The rest are far-right people who, as you can imagine, hate him with a passion, though I do hope they're only a minority of Japanese people whose voices are amplified by Twitter echo chambers.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:25PM (#23553246)
I'll have to hunt down the article that talks about it, but McArthur was actually "Emperor of Japan" for a few years, in everything but title.

I had several people point out his office on the top floor of a building facing the Emperor's Palace (some of the priciest real estate on Earth), in hushed, reverential tones.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by soraminazuki on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:41PM (#23554291)
Yes, he did have a strong political influence during US occupation, and yes, there may be people who worship him, but I can guarantee that it's not the norm. I'm actually fluent enough in Japanese to know this.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by ChrisMarshallNY on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @04:11PM (#23556138)
Cool. I am not a native (I only visited), so I will modify my view point, based upon your feedback.

I know that means I should leave the Internet, but I am right, usually because I am wrong, and learn differently.

None of us is “born right,” despite some people’s posturing.

Thanks for that.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by soperj on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:13PM (#23553089)
>though I do hope they're only a minority of Japanese people whose voices are amplified by Twitter echo chambers.

Why? There's a reason Dugout Doug was fired during the Korean War. Guy was a menace.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by soraminazuki on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:20PM (#23554005)
Because the kinds of people who likes to pile on McArthur are mostly far-right people who are trying to discredit the positive things he did, especially his team's work on drafting the current Japanese constitution which established a democratic system with strong safeguards for human rights. It's not McArthur's own character that I'm taking issues with.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:02PM (#23556706)
>McArthur is revered as a god, over there

When they talk to Americans, maybe.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by jpxw on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:01AM (#23551465)
Have you ever been to Japan?
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by whatshisface on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:11AM (#23551599)
Japan is twice as far from California going East as it is going West. The parent must be using that definition. ;)
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by asveikau on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:08AM (#23552335)
I remember once it felt a bit jarring when I heard native American cultures contrasted with "western" ones. Surely they are more "western" than Europeans.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by User23 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:31PM (#23553318)
"Western" in this context is referring to the western tip of the Eurasian landmass. The western hemisphere is part of the cultural "West" because of the European diaspora, not because of its geographic location.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by inawarminister on Friday June 19, 2020 @07:57AM (#23573435)
Because of Western Rome and Catholicism, I think Eastern Europe and Russia weren't part of the West. Aren't they?
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by User23 on Friday June 19, 2020 @08:59PM (#23580568)
Correct. The division goes back to the Roman Empire and the reforms of Diocletian. Arguably however there were underlying cultural differences between the Latin Romans and the Greek Romans that were beneath those reforms and the later Great Schism between East and West.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by asveikau on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:36PM (#23553372)
Yes I understand. Yet it in another sense remains geographically inaccurate or contradictory, and amusingly so.

It's my personal opinion that when we see such a discongreguity that we should perhaps choose other words.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by antonvs on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:16PM (#23557469)
Words are never some sort of perfect encapsulation of their meaning. They only achieve that via their definitions.

What you're suggesting is basically using the etymological fallacy as a basis for changing words. Because of linguistic drift, a majority of words would have up be changed at some point - words like "nice" which came to mean their opposite, for example.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by asveikau on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:04PM (#23557878)
I think my suggestion that we should "perhaps" choose different words occasionally was mistaken for a demand that we must.

Choice of words is an individalized thing and language allows us to be as flexible as we like within still getting the point across. If I choose to say "European" instead of "western" when contrasting with indigenous Americans that sounds fine to me. If you don't make that same choice that's fine too. We'll all be understood.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:05PM (#23556745)
>It's my personal opinion that when we see such a discongreguity that we should perhaps choose other words.

Not really. Then we'd be changing terms established for centuries, that most people understand in their two contexts (geographical and cultural), with some new words we'd have to explain every time we use them -- so making things worse.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by asveikau on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:08PM (#23557911)
If I contrasted indigenous Americans with "European" culture rather than a "western" one, you would completely understand the meaning and it wouldn't be a big deal.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Thursday June 18, 2020 @05:04AM (#23561219)
Not exactly.

I wouldn't know if you mean "European culture" in the sense of something unique continental European (the way Europeans have unique cultural traits different from US traits, e.g. analytical vs continental philosophy), or the shared western culture Europeans and US Americans, and Australians, etc have?

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by asveikau on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:07PM (#23566517)
That would sound to me like a deliberate misread in the same way that taking "west" literally is to you. You would know what I meant to say, and so would I should you say it the other way.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Friday June 19, 2020 @03:52AM (#23572099)
>You would know what I meant to say

Not really, only with extra context/explanation.

It's common to divide US/European culture (even though both western), or to include Japan in the western culture (even though not in the west, and their culture is not European of origin -- west in that sense is more like "westernized").

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:04PM (#23556725)
West/East and western/eastern does not just have a geographical meaning.

It also has a political/cultural meaning, which has some roots in geography, but is otherwise totally different.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by devmunchies on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:15PM (#23553117)
Native Americans and pre-Christian pagan Europeans had a lot in common. Both cultures that honor seasonal cycles, animals, nature, ancestors, animism etc.

Unfortunately “western” is now seen as the Abrahamic judeo-Christian capitalistic worldview, even though the west sprang out of pagan Greece and Rome.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by tomnipotent on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:36PM (#23553382)
Rome was Christian when the Western and Eastern empires were founded, and when they fell. My understanding is that modern West/East etymology is heavily influenced by the Western/Eastern Roman empires.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by Bayart on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:22AM (#23560623)
Yes, strictly speaking the West, the Occident, is born out of the leftovers of the Western Roman Empire.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by coldtea on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @05:07PM (#23556771)
>Unfortunately “western” is now seen as the Abrahamic judeo-Christian capitalistic worldview, even though the west sprang out of pagan Greece and Rome.

The west "sprang out of pagan Greece and Rome" when they decided to become Christian. The actual pagans had been slowly abandoning paganism as a dead-end and turning more into esoteric religions and neo-planonism etc and the influence of Egyptian etc religions for several centuries before Christianism was a thing...

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by Bayart on Thursday June 18, 2020 @03:34AM (#23560698)
>Native Americans and pre-Christian pagan Europeans had a lot in common.

Other than not having the Christian religion, no, not really.

>Both cultures that honor seasonal cycles, animals, nature, ancestors, animism etc

"Both cultures" ? What cultures ? Neither pre-Colombian Americas nor Europe shared a culture on their respective side. Even if most of Europe shared a common Indo-European root, religious practices were varying widely. Be it from the cross-pollination with different tradition (pre-Indo-European, Semitic and whatnot) or social changes. It's very hard to argue the official Roman religion as practiced in cities was any more "closer to nature" than Catholicism is.

>the Abrahamic judeo-Christian capitalistic worldview

Any more grand words to force into that sentence ?

Making the Christian religion itself being the deciding factor in your reading of history is a position that's very... Christian.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by bluntfang on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:54AM (#23551375)
I don't understand why I'm getting downvoted. Is what I am saying incorrect?
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by FakeRemore on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:09AM (#23551575)
A cursory glance at Japanese culture and values shows me that America has had far less influence on its development than you believe. On the scale of individuality/community, Japan is further on the opposite side. The anime/manga industry is quite different than anything we have in the West, and a lot of their values tie into the things that are depicted, what's okay, what's not okay, etc. We often see traditional influences on their media that simply don't exist in the West in the same way (comparison of the American and Japanese versions of The Ring: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01956051.2011.5...).
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by jeromegv on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:02AM (#23551476)
Yes. First you attribute what Japan is to how the US rebuilt it, when in fact this society has thousands of years of history before the US. Sure we can't deny US influence after WW2 and how integrated they are in the global economy, that doesn't make it a westernized country.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by ersii on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:20AM (#23551699)
Not to be annoying, but can't this be said about most places? Like continental Europe.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by mistersquid on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:51AM (#23552121)
Continental Europe is considered, by and large, to be "The West", as is the United States. In this context, the US is a new country but very much representative of the Western world.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:02AM (#23551475)
Yes. Japan is generally considered part of the "Eastern World."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_world

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by mthoms on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:59PM (#23553731)
Culturally yes, but it depends on context. As mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world , during the Cold War and after, "Western World" was roughly analogous with "First world".

That is to say, (again, roughly) - "modern, stable, (primarily) capitalist, democracies aligned with Western Europe/USA".

So, in the context of geopolitics and political ideologies many people still consider it to include Japan and South Korea. Yours truly included.

Not that I care as much about the "aligned with" part anymore, but certainly the "modern, stable, democracy" part.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by wodenokoto on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:59AM (#23551439)
Yes.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by quadrifoliate on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @02:18PM (#23554757)
I hold a diametrically opposite viewpoint and would like to present it.

I think people would be happier if they did think in terms of a six year old. There is nothing inherently "professional" about using drab and dull interfaces for coding and going to an office where you all dress in identical suits.

There is quiet satisfaction in achieving mastery like you mention, but (IMO) it should be accompanied by a pleasant feeling too. GitHub's cheerful, bright colors and interface enable that for me, and I'm grateful to them for it. GitLab and Bitbucket feel flat, dreary, and dull by comparison, honestly. It's like going to a brightly colored room with nice sofas v/s an all-grey room with a white desk. Which one are you going to be more productive in?

I think this is also why Slack is incredibly successful for something that is basically an IRC-in-browser implementation. It made work "fun" for a lot of people and thus steam-rollered opposers.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by alfalfasprout on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @07:43PM (#23558170)
Thank you. I 100% agree. We've for some reason decided that "professional" and "enterprise grade" means dull colors, ugly interfaces, and zero room for "hacking" and "experimentation". That code needs to be "work". That the poster of the comment would claim that this is akin to the thinking of a six year old is in itself curious.

It's as if we're letting the jaded cynics of the world win.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by chrisandchips on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @08:37AM (#23550630)
TBF, I don't think the author is saying that Github needs to be fun, but rather that it used to be and now isn't. It's lost a nice quality that it had.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by blondin on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:08AM (#23550891)
having a hard time understanding what the author is saying. i never considered github to be a place to have fun at. and i am surprised by this article and curious how other people see or use github...

by the way, the trending page is not everything about github!

i keep discovering and bookmarking github projects every now and then. for example, this repository where the author has implementations for trigonometry functions in k&r c: https://github.com/richgel999/triglib

i don't believe github has lost its quality either!

they recently pushed that new layout preview that made the app usable when my zoom level is at 150%. i was very happy about that. i can't wait for github to provide a better search engine. and i have the feeling that they are totally working on it :)

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by chrisandchips on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:53AM (#23551369)
I don't use trending often enough to know that I'm correct in saying this, but I get the impression that the author is describing a shift from "most star-ed projects each day" to some new algorithm which seems to resemble "most interesting projects as of late", with the later being less dynamic. I suppose that's in part why they feel less excitement and less value in the tool.

I agree that a lot of the recent changes to GH have been really cool. This article sort of makes me wish that features like the trending page were more configurable.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by pdimitar on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:24AM (#23552532)
> I suppose that's in part why they feel less excitement and less value in the tool.

Any karma system (in this case GitHub stars) can be gamed, exploited, and used to generate hype.

I would be very glad if GitHub started moving away from that (although I have no clue what would replace it, if anything at all).

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by tclancy on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:37AM (#23551192)
Agreed, but I think us old farts are complaining the author thinks GitHub has changed while they have not and isn't considering that maybe their perspective shifted during the time as well.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by uchman on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:19AM (#23551689)
I think the headline differs (perhaps for traffic). The post seems to discuss concerns about the discovery/trending feature - how developers "discover" new code.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by nogabebop23 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:50AM (#23552111)
no doubt GH wanted to develop their social site aspects to increase engagement and "stickiness" but I don't think they ever succeeded much, so while it's obviosuly different for the author, it's not much of a loss for everyone else.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by nogabebop23 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:48AM (#23552089)
I think it's a consequence of gamifying absolutely everything. If you had a online tool I used to quietly manage production at my cardboard box factory and then you went and added leader boards, badges, xp, recognition points and an influencer score, then box manufacturing better be pretty bloody exciting for me from now on. We now have an entire generation of software developers who have never known these tools without the gamified experience.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by ardy42 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:54AM (#23552142)
> If you had a online tool I used to quietly manage production at my cardboard box factory and then you went and added leader boards, badges, xp, recognition points and an influencer score, then box manufacturing better be pretty bloody exciting for me from now on. We now have an entire generation of software developers who have never known these tools without the gamified experience.

Maybe I'm just a little too old, but I've always rolled my eyes at those kinds of features and then ignored them. I find it impossible to imagine anyone actually caring about their badges or XP score on some company intranet wiki.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by closeparen on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @06:37PM (#23557628)
GitHub stars are called out by name in my company’s promotion criteria for evaluating the impact and influence of an engineer’s open source releases.

There’s a certain kind of manager that loves anything they can measure, however silly it is.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by joncrane on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:05AM (#23552290)
That's what makes those systems so great. It has a positive effect on the people that DO care, and essentially no negative effect on anyone else. It's a free win.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by pdimitar on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:21AM (#23552495)
They are a distraction -- and many websites utilise dark patterns to make those UI elements hard to ignore.

Plus many professional tools need to make use of every square centimetre on the display, and putting this "fun" cruft in it is going to detract from the usefulness of the tool because it now can't accommodate all the necessary UI elements.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by julianeon on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:31AM (#23552608)
I guess I would come from the opposite direction and say: If you can make something important and useful - but generally seen as boring - “fun” there are big wins all around.

The jobs in one corner vs. fun in another usually creates a system where everything that’s fun is unfortunately useless, from a professional perspective.

And some people like that! They want to work for 8 hours and make memes/play games the rest of the time. They don’t miss the “lost” time at all.

But some of us really want to convert that useless time into something useful. You can hate us if you want, but I don’t think we are necessarily wrong to want this.

Example: I just don’t have enough time. I’m noticing now that when I take even 30 minutes off, in terms of my productivity- it hurts. I’ve personally concluded that the concept of “free time” just doesn’t apply to me, and I don’t really have any.

Another example: at a certain level, given the right approach, probably anything can be fun. Physics can be fun! Linear algebra can be fun! But you know as well as I do that when people talk about fun colloquially, they never mean linear algebra. So pushing back on what is “fun” exactly can have big on the job benefits.

In this context, switching 30 minutes over from “mindless entertainment” to “somewhat professionally useful entertainment” is a massive win. Enough to get me to stop doing one thing and do something else, actually.

I would guess a lot of people on Twitter would be in the same boat, based on how they use it.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by pdimitar on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:19AM (#23552462)
> Tangential: what is up with this inflationary expectation that everything should be "fun" and "exciting" and "thrilling"? I feel like western society as a whole is thinking more and more in terms of a six year old.

Depends what you mean by "western society". A good chunk of Europeans I knew (including in Eastern Europe where I live) share the same mindset as your parent poster: a version control is just a tool and it is gauged on the basis of how much it helps you in your work. Absolutely zero fun factor required. We just want it to be useful and not get in the way (which, admittedly, Git itself isn't quite good at).

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by thanatropism on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:18AM (#23551679)
(I) There's still a relative scarcity of developers at any skill (even if there's no shortage of class-N developers taking their shot at class-(N+1) work).

(II) I'm not a progressive politically, but Western Society has generally improved. Bigger McDonalds meals that make you fatter is "improved" too under the logic of the market. Because developers are relatively scarce, a greater share of this improvement goes to what they want (whereas in burger flipping, the share gone to better golf clubs for execs is comparatively larger).

(III) There's something about law enforcement that attracts a certain kind of personality. I was never drawn to LEO (as a cop, bail bondsman, mall security, anything) because I don't have these personality traits. The same goes for computer programmers. There's certainly a childish trait going on that isn't present in Mad Men's Don Draper (but then, who knows if this guy existed); the web itself gravitates to a light, rounded, primary-colors visual language. I think in part there's a whiz-kid dynamic where many of us were much much more capable than adults in a moment of extraordinary technology shift (the introduction of the internet), whereas in previous generations adults knew better and youngsters wanted to emulate them. ("Never trust anyone over 30" has been around for a long time, but it was an angry sentiment, whereas now 40-year-olds are welcome to emulate whiz-kids if they still have it).

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by jstarfish on Thursday June 18, 2020 @02:46PM (#23566269)
We need new and shiny things to challenge us, maintain established neural pathways and develop new ones. It's a physiological need for healthy brain functioning.

Yes, it is childlike, but there is no shame in that-- if anything, history is proving more and more that the generations who maintained that everything must be as repetitive and miserable as possible had no idea what they were talking about-- and are now dying with active diagnoses of dementia and Alzheimer's.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by decebalus1 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:41AM (#23552720)
My guess is that it started as a differentiator in the market. This is 'fun', other things are not. Then it leaked into other places, such as the workplace which became increasingly infantilized at ultimately the detriment of the worker (benefits include: shitty health insurance, ping pong tables and foosball leagues!!). This further led to the internalization of natural negative or neutral feelings: you feel down? What's wrong with you? Everyone else is having fun! This is fun! Your job is fun! You must be broken, therefore you need to fix yourself.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by SquishyPanda23 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:29AM (#23551834)
> expectation that everything should be "fun" and "exciting" and "thrilling"?

Among other things, these emotions are addictive and are tracked indirectly via engagement metrics.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by indymike on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:07AM (#23551555)
Fun may not be the right word for it. Github certainly never has deserved a description reserved for a world-class roller coaster... I don't think I've ever been "thrilled" by Github, but I've been very satisfied, contented, and sometimes amused by the experience. A positive experience really is useful as it makes getting other developers to comply with the process - something that was really lacking in source control prior to Github (and to a degree git itself).
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by baryphonic on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @10:54AM (#23552147)
I think the prominence of consumption industries like entertainment, media and social media have hooked us on the idea of happiness/meaning as perpetual bliss. I suspect these industries learned it from advertising, an industry which they created and evolved. The schools and religious organizations have tried to follow suit, with only mixed success.

"Fun" is a very poor imitation of "zen" or "peace" (the Christian concept) or "enlightenment" (the Buddhist concept), but has become sort of the sine qua non of secular Western democratic capitalist societies.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by elboru on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:30AM (#23552590)
As a Catholic I can confirm. So many priests and lay people are trying to make Mass “fun”, it’s sad and most of the time cringy.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by war1025 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:02PM (#23553763)
As a Lutheran, I feel this any time someone breaks out a guitar or a praise song. Church doesn't need to be "hip".
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by notriddle on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @01:40PM (#23554272)
It's the same reason for buying ads.

If nobody does it, it would be fine. If everybody does it, then we're worse off than before. But if some do it, and others don't, then the ones who do it win big.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by wallacoloo on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:14PM (#23553098)
I think you could benefit from laying out a few examples, because on my own I’m struggling to put your claim into more concrete terms that I can relate to.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by jayd16 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @12:48PM (#23553562)
Pretty sure everything has been marketed this way since the advertising boom or sooner. Go look at soap ads from 100 years ago.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:03AM (#23550836)
I think ultimately Sourceforge fell from grace because it wasn't "fun", whatever that may mean; it was lacking the social features, poor UX, etc. Many things that make it boring or "not fun".

I've looked at some tools used by Google - mailing lists, Gerrit, etc - none of those look fun. For a casual like me, fun is important.

I don't do much with open source because I don't have the headspace, willpower or persistence to contribute much so the discussion is a bit wasted on me, but I've used both Github, Gitlab and Stash (Atlassian) for work projects; the feedback loop that tools like this give is super important to me.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by the_af on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:45AM (#23551284)
I think Sourceforge fell from grace because of underhanded tactics like hijacking projects and bundling adware no-one wanted with their downloads, then lying about it.

I never once thought "Sourceforge is boring". I thought they became villains.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by asveikau on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @11:14AM (#23552398)
To be fair though, they declined in popularity and mindshare and had a change of ownership a few times before it came to that. The sourceforge that served up malware in 2013 bore little resemblance to the one from the 90s.

I feel like it was more like: their offerings were no longer unique, the original team probably moved on, they couldn't make money, and they turned to desperation.

Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by JoBrad on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:15AM (#23550956)
I thought it was because they started bundling adware with software without telling the creators of that software.
Re:GitHub isn't fun anymore by kbr2000 on Wednesday June 17, 2020 @09:47AM (#23551298)
Yep [0], after been bought by Dice (they also drained off the Freshmeat and Slashdot communities around that time, then froze the former "as a result of low traffic levels").

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SourceForge#Controversies