News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by beloch on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:35AM (#23486876)
We're used to the idea of this happening when companies sell printers, game consoles, etc. at the slimmest of margins and rely on the sale of associated consumables (e.g. ink) to make a profit.

We're starting to see this kind of practice on an increasing number of big-ticket items where the consumables (filters in this case) represent a tiny fraction of the overall cost. GE isn't making the majority of their money off of selling you replacement filters, yet they've gone and done this to make a few extra bucks. I have a Samsung TV that tries to show me postage stamp sized ads when I'm in it's interface. I spent thousands on the thing and Samsung will be lucky to get pennies from those ads. I add filters to block the domains those ads are coming from to my router periodically, but Samsung keeps coming up with new ones.

The next TV I buy will not be a Samsung, and I suspect the author of this article has bought his last GE appliance. Why are companies driving away people who make multi-thousand dollar purchases with scummy behaviour that nets them spare change? Do the vast majority of people just not care? That's the only way the math makes sense.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by unyttigfjelltol on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:58AM (#23487858)
>> Why are companies driving away people who make multi-thousand dollar purchases with scummy behaviour that nets them spare change?

I think the problem is you have a VP of this and VP of that, each of whom are tasked to squeeze pennies today via this vertical or that gizmo or else find a new job tomorrow. It's endemic, becoming an entrenched feature of big (U.S.) business. The people in those positions are incentivized to not give two hoots about a $2,000 lost sale eight years from now; they are employed literally to squeeze the extra $20 from replacement filters now. That's it.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by Gravityloss on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:16AM (#23488487)
Reviewers need to pay attention to these new "features".

Builtin ads or DRM should be a major point in any review or feature comparison matrix.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by joncrane on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:33AM (#23488671)
I understand that the vast majority of reviewers on the internet, and certainly the sites that come up first in search engine results, are compensated by the manufacturers via kickbacks.

I believe it's colloquially known as a "racket."

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by hunter2_ on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:26AM (#23489848)
Is there any good work being done on solving this problem? "Verified buyer" exists on larger sites but it doesn't solve for kickbacks. Looking only at reviews written by people closer to you socially also doesn't work since at that critical proximity there aren't enough reviews.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by prepend on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:10PM (#23494180)
Consumerreports is still independent and really useful, I think.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by ryukafalz on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:34AM (#23489939)
The Verge has been doing this for the EULAs of the products that they review, which I'm a huge fan of. Search for "agree to continue" on this page for example: https://www.theverge.com/21286687/motorola-moto-e-2020-g-fas...

But yeah, I wish more reviewers would do this, especially now that DRM and EULAs are finding their way into what were previously dumb appliances.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by Nursie on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:51AM (#23489519)
Some do, IIRC Rtings list and score points for "Ad Free" as one of their many review categories.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by softawre on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:44AM (#23489450)
They do. I was well aware of the ad stuff on my last Samsung TV before I bought it, since most review sites mentioned it.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by arkades on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:16AM (#23488498)
> Why are companies driving away people who make multi-thousand dollar purchases with scummy behaviour that nets them spare change?

Because high-margin goods aren't spare change. Look at the razor:

I can sell you the razor at cost-plus for $20 on a $19 manufacturing cost. I can sell you each individual razor cartridge at 90% profit for $1. At the end of the year I've sold, say, 5 razors and 50 blades, for a total of $150.

On the one hand, the razors made up the bulk of my gross revenue ($100/$150).

On the other hand, looking at the actual profit I've generated, $45 came from blades and $5 came from razors - that is, 90% of my profit came from those "pennies" that the razors brought in.

If you can strong-arm people into buying high-margin goods, that's a strong bonus to your bottom line, even if the absolute price isn't that high.

Let's plug a fridge into those numbers.

A nice new GE fridge can be had for something in the vicinity of $800 (sears website is showing me stuff $600-$1000, so let's just split the difference). Amazon has GW RPWFE filters up at $50 a pop.

You buy a fridge, what, every ten years? Every twenty? Those filters "should" be replaced every quarter? Let's be generous and say every half a year.

Those filters generate the same profit as the fridge at 16 years out, at the same profit margins. At asymmetric profit margins (say, 30% vs. 5%) they've produced profits equal to that of the fridge in a handful of years.

These aren't pennies.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by erichurkman on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:45AM (#23488792)
Don't forget to account for planned obsolescence. If a fridge lasts 10 years, what happens when GE stops producing those filters? You start looking at new fridges. The GE fridge pissed you off, so you upgrade to Fisher & Paykel… turns out they are produced by the same company, so they don't care that GE 'lost' a customer.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haier )

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by kube-system on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:47AM (#23489485)
Yeah, here in the US just about every brand at any big box store is from Whirlpool, Electrolux, or Haier.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by beckler on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:29PM (#23490514)
I work at GE. They sold off their appliance vertical, with brand rights, to Haier years ago. And with lighting being recently sold off, GE doesn't manufacture any home appliances anymore.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by xxpor on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:46AM (#23490045)
Including the Korean brands?
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by kube-system on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:32PM (#23491882)
I stand corrected, I forgot about LG and Samsung
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by xxpor on Thursday June 11, 2020 @04:38PM (#23493062)
Ah ok, I thought it might just be the white label manufacturers went even deeper than I thought :)
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by dehrmann on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:38PM (#23490616)
I've definitely seen more LG and Samsung appliances than I did 20 years ago, and not just some off-brand in the back corner.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by dreamcompiler on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:36PM (#23491932)
Fridges (and washing machines and just about every other "long-lasting" home appliances) only last about 5 years nowadays. In the case of the fridge, the compressor fails and replacing it typically costs more than a whole new unit. In the case of washing machines and other appliances, it's the CPU board or the main motor which degrades from heat after about 5 years, and a new one costs almost as much as a whole new appliance.

This behavior is so consistent in new appliances that I'm convinced companies are designing in the failures on purpose, because they've figured out that consumers will tolerate it and because the dearth of actual major appliance competitors leaves consumers no other choice.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by grogenaut on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:35AM (#23489351)
Given I shave every few weeks blades last me 3-5 years.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by arkades on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:36AM (#23489947)
That's cool. I go through about two blades a week. I'm not sure either of those facts is relevant to the discussion.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by tiernano on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:40AM (#23486909)
easy way to solve the problem: disconnect the TV From the internet... do you really need a smart TV? i got my samsung a few months back, and when setting it up, never connected it to the wifi or ethernet. I have an AppleTV, XBox One and NVidia Shield all plugged in and they are the smarts... The TV is JUST A SCREEN. It shouldnt be any more. It also means that 3 years down the road, Netflix changes something and your "Smart TV" looses access, your not "forced" to buy a new one... Apple change something and the AppleTV needs replacing? its $150 quid. Your TV is $1000+...
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by walrus01 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:58AM (#23487464)
I have a thousand times more confidence that the operating system on a Xbox one or PS4 will remain patched and updated over a multi year time span... Than I do that some weird Android or webOS variant on a TV from Samsung or LG or others will remain safe to connect to the internet.

People will say, "yes , but the Xbox or PS4 home screen also shows ads". In my opinion those ads are far less annoying than having an ad on the actual TV. If I want something totally ad free I also have my HTPC connected to the screen.

I don't see giving any TVs the wifi password or a direct Ethernet cable any time in the future.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by eulers_secret on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:42AM (#23490010)
I feel the same way, but there are problems with this method. Especially with the artificial limitations on 4K/HDR content. For example, my PS4 Pro cannot watch Disney Plus in 4K/HDR mode, but my built in TV app can.

Another example: 4K on Netflix on a PC - you can't do it (unless using Intel IGPU > kabylake and Edge on Win 10 only). Mac users need to use a Win VM. But my TV app works.

It sucks, it really really sucks.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by walrus01 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:19PM (#23493380)
I might be wrong but I'm fairly certain I've been watching 4k netflix just fine on a HTPC that consists of a ryzen 1500x, geforce 1030 fanless, latest version of Chrome, and windows 10 home. The geforce1030 drivers have the hooks in them for HDPC transport to my home theatre receiver. Chrome has the various DRM software modules in it that keeps Netflix happy. I can definitely tell the difference on a big 4K TV if I toggle the quality setting in the netflix in-browser GUI.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by phonon on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:28PM (#23495064)
That's not what Netflix says.

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23931

Netflix is available in Ultra HD on Windows computers and tablets. To stream in Ultra HD, you will need:

A Windows 10 computer or tablet with the latest Windows updates installed.

The Microsoft Edge browser or the Netflix app for Windows 10.

A 60Hz 4K capable display (with HDCP 2.2 connection if external display).

NOTE: Every monitor connected to your computer must meet these requirements to successfully stream in Ultra HD. Intel's 7th generation Core CPU (i3, i5, or i7 models in the 7xxx or 7Yxx series) or newer, or a NVIDIA GPU that meets these requirements.

A plan that supports streaming in Ultra HD. You can check which plan you're currently on at netflix.com/ChangePlan.

A steady internet connection speed of 25 megabits per second or higher.

Streaming quality set to Auto or High. More information about video quality settings can be found in our Playback Settings article.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by walrus01 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:48PM (#23495181)
My configuration meets all of those requirements except I'm using the mainline Chrome browser. Is it really specifically Edge? Because edge is just the chrome browser engine internally now. I certainly do have edge installed on the same PC (kinda hard to have an auto updating copy of win 10 home without it), so I'll have to compare side by side.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by phonon on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:10PM (#23495281)
Chrome doesn't support PlayReady DRM, which Netflix needs, they support Widevine instead. Right now you need a hardware device (like Roku) or a MS browser. In fact, Chrome only supports 720p on Windows/Linux.

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742

https://medium.com/@rihardsgailums/adventures-of-netflix-win...

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/chromium-mic...

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by walrus01 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:06PM (#23495611)
Are you sure that's up to date? Because I'm sitting here right now with a 75" 4k screen, the PC in question, Chrome, Netflix, and it's definitely not 720p. I would notice if I was watching Altered Carbon in 720p. I can also see that the PC is moving about 23.5 Mbps of traffic from my home router, which matches with one of netflix's 2160p HEVC bitrates.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by phonon on Friday June 12, 2020 @08:14AM (#23498435)
What does it say when you press "Ctrl + Alt + Shift + D"?
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by fomine3 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:18PM (#23494999)
Also gaming consoles have advantages for specs that's for gaming but also useful for smoothness UI.

The problem is I don't gaming on TV so I buy STB with crappy SoC.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by namdnay on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:25AM (#23488590)
That's what I thought, until I got a Samsung with integrated Netflix, youtube etc. No more hassle with separate boxes and multiple remotes etc, I can use the Samsung minimalist remote (which is both beautiful and really usable - the aluminium one) and jsut switch from one app to another to TV etc

There's even a feature where you can directly access a channel's "smart" features from that channel (so if I'm watching Arte I press the red button and get replay episodes etc)

And then they force ads down my throat :(

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by hadrien01 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:00AM (#23488965)
The channel smart features are powered by HbbTV (Arte+7, BBC Red Button, France.tv Salto, etc.), they should work on non-smart TVs that are connected to the Internet.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by namdnay on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:35AM (#23489342)
ah good to know! i didn't know there were intermediate tvs that had internet without being "smart"
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by dreamcompiler on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:40PM (#23491987)
So build a Pihole. Now you get the best of both worlds: Use the Samsung integrated features but no ads.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by grishka on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:36AM (#23489358)
I've read that you can get a non-smart and more reliable TV if you call it "digital signage".
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by ohazi on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:24PM (#23492445)
At four times the price.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by yummypaint on Saturday June 13, 2020 @08:54AM (#23509033)
This is what i did years ago when i got my samsung smart TV to use as a monitor. Still havent agreed to the EULA. Unfortunately the firmware it came with is total shit. Sometimes there are straight up errors in whats being displayed, or it wont lock to signals, and the tv has to be restarted. There is of course no way to fix any of this without permanently enabling ads, telemetry, and audio spying as far as i know, assuming they ever fixed the firmware. Ill never buy another samsung product, i dont care how cost effective it appears in the moment. It's hard to put a price on the peace of mind of using devices that aren't actively hostile to me. You also have to be vigilant about other people boneheadedly picking up your remote and consenting to the agreements so they can use the hobbled internal processor to watch netflix with ads. When guests are using the TV there basically has to be a mini PSA about only using the attached computer and how insidious samsung is. Really great word of mouth advertising for them...
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by gambiting on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:18AM (#23489778)
Yes, I think I absolutely do need a smart TV. The ability to just switch on netflix or even a DLNA client directly on my TV without having to switch on another device is worth the little bit of bullshit that comes with it. I've had the same "smart" Bravia TV for 7 years now, and it still works absolutely fine, the Netflix client runs just the same, the DLNA streaming works the same.....the biggest disappointment was when PlaystationNow support was discontinued, I could no longer play games using just the TV and a bluetooth controller.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by barrkel on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:38AM (#23489970)
Hmm. We use an Amazon Fire Stick connected to a projector.

The projector is dumb. It has its own remote, but we don't need to use it; the recent Fire Stick remotes understand how to control the volume and how to turn it off, and that's all you need.

HDMI-CEC means the Fire Stick turns on the projector when you click on it, so you don't need to turn on multiple devices.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by golem14 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:57AM (#23490172)
How does one use a DLNA client on a Samsung tv?

I can only find a list of useless apps (other than Netflix, YouTube)

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by codazoda on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:00AM (#23488331)
I have a smart TV. I connected it to WiFi for setup and update and then I "forgot" the network. Two weeks later my wife is watching Netflix and I notice it's the TV not my Roku or Apple TV. She swears she didn't configure it.

I didn't mention the brand because I haven't gone back in to double check what's happening here.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by xtracto on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:19AM (#23489152)
Here un mexico some providers tie your accounts to your IP (phone/internet provider has a Netflix like service) so one you login / auth from one device, it will read your ip and save it for other devices.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by AdamJacobMuller on Friday June 12, 2020 @10:17PM (#23506149)
I have my LG TVs hooked up so I can power on/off them via ethernet (with SimpleControl).

Besides that their access to the internet is blocked on my firewall.

I don't want nor need "smart" features and I would have paid more for the same panel with fewer features.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by fsflover on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:54AM (#23487003)
Except that I paid not just for the screen, but also for the additional advertised "smart" features.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by beervirus on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:12AM (#23488454)
Smart TVs are cheaper, not more expensive. You didn’t pay for those features—you saved money by having them foisted on you.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by fsflover on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:32AM (#23488667)
Even if true, maybe I liked those features (not advertising) and wanted to have them?
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by beervirus on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:18AM (#23489130)
Then the advertising and the spying/telemetry are part of the bargain that you struck.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by fsflover on Friday June 12, 2020 @04:16AM (#23497159)
According to the GDPR, they cannot be.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by iforgotpassword on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:24AM (#23487223)
But it's factored into the price. TV prices fell a lot during the last two years or so. They earn from the ads, they sell your usage stats. You get a subsidized TV. Don't connect it to the net.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by cremp on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:18AM (#23488519)
Spit-balling; when will they put GSM chips in them? The cost of a data-plan could easily be reached with estimated figures for ads and selling usage data.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by dreamcompiler on Thursday June 11, 2020 @02:45PM (#23492026)
GSM is old-hat. The new cool is 5G chips embedded in TVs, and they are coming. And you won't be able to opt out unless you build a Faraday cage around the TV.

https://www.t-mobile.com/tvision/tvision-5g

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:33AM (#23487281)
It’s ok, you are allowed to admit you made a mistake.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by rekoil on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:51AM (#23487823)
What was the mistake? There are no options here anymore. You want an OLED? You're getting a smart OLED.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by phkahler on Thursday June 11, 2020 @08:03AM (#23487902)
Just dont connect it to the internet. If it doesnt work, return it.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by Wistar on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:22AM (#23489820)
Well, there is this OLED option. Bring money.

https://www.lg.com/us/business/oled-displays/lg-55EW5F-A

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by dehrmann on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:44PM (#23490669)
> NVidia Shield

Have you seen all the ads on an Nvidia Shield? So now I have to also install LineageOS?

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by coffeefirst on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:37AM (#23488703)
I suspect there's two parts:

1. GE can only count the dollars it makes from this little scam, not the dollars it lost. It doesn't see the fact that I now resent them (I discovered this "feature" a month ago) and will likely avoid even buying lightbulbs with their logo on them can't factor into their model.

2. These aren't items you replace often, so it will take years for any negative effect to set in, unless the reviews tank.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by at_a_remove on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:29AM (#23489264)
Good news for you about buying their light bulbs ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23324898
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by mc32 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:56AM (#23487848)
It almost feels like slowly but almost surely those lcd refrigerators will turn into “gas station tv” but for pantry items and people will accept it.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by _jal on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:41PM (#23490648)
I decided that one criteria for expensive things I buy from now on is that unless it is inherent to the function of the object, I will not buy things that depend on the maker as an ongoing operation for functions I care about[1].

Cell phones are the hardest case there, and I'll probably break my rule in that case. But in general, I'm not paying rent on things I already bought, even if that tax is in the form of stupid ads.

[1] I'm also not going to play what-about-this-edge-case with quibblers.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by toohotatopic on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:50AM (#23486977)
This should come down to profit margins. If TVs are sold for production costs or at a loss, then all profits come from advertising.

If buyers go for sticker prices and $10 make or break a deal, then it doesn't matter if the product costs $1000. If somebody can offer a similar product for $990, people will buy that. With all the features and options, what else but price is relevant unless you have time to study the subject?

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:35AM (#23487294)
That’s nieve.

Does it match your decor?

I think you’d be surprised by the number of people who buy something that’s in their price range but also matches their idea of what that thing should look like.

Style.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by rootusrootus on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:03PM (#23490253)
At the $1000 point, most buyers are definitely focused on the price. Buyers who care about style are spending $2000+ on their fridge, and that's just for the low level stuff you find at a big box store.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday June 11, 2020 @04:40PM (#23493072)
Waddayamean?

From my perspective, a $1000 screen is a significant purchase.

Hell, spending $500 on an appliance gives me pause.

Mind you, you’d probably laugh out loud if you saw what us locally employed (ie, not FIFO) tradespeople get paid.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by rootusrootus on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:11PM (#23493814)
I'm sure it varies, of course, but where I live a thousand bucks will get you a bog standard side-by-side fridge of middling quality. Functional, but not the least bit exciting. Everyone seems to want french door models these days, and that pretty much instantly pushes you to the $2000 range.

We have a french door fridge and I loathe it. Someone told me to skip that and get a bottom freezer single-door, but my wife really wanted the french door. We regret it. The recommendation to avoid was spot-on.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by mfer on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:47AM (#23487794)
I wonder how much a refrigerator costs to design and manufacture that just keeps things cold. That might help with margins.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by owenmarshall on Thursday June 11, 2020 @10:56AM (#23489575)
Bare-bones refrigerators are available: https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint/top-fre...

The margins for appliance manufacturers are tight. 3-5% is not uncommon.

Features like wifi connectivity and premium finish are how you start increasing profitability but even then you aren't making significant profit per unit until you hit the very top product lines – think Samsung's Dacor or GE's Monogram.

Any proposed change to the appliance goes through a cost/benefit analysis that is more rigorous than anything I've seen in a software company: if your BOM or cost to assemble go up by pennies you have to convince executives that either cost of quality goes down to compensate, OR that it will drive sales.

Water filters, on the other hand, have margins that have 2 or even 3 zeros at the end.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by karatestomp on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:38AM (#23489963)
Fridges are one of those product categories for which the magic of the free market misses completely for me.

I want a basic fridge with maybe $200, tops (manufacturing & material cost) of improvements to things that actually matter (castors on drawers make a huge difference for the feel of fridge drawers, for example) + non-ugly exterior. Counter depth (so less material!). No ice maker, no water integrated, none of that stuff. Certainly no damn screens. Just a compressor with a cabinet. A good and useful layout, or "UX" if you prefer (this adds no cost, or very little, past the initial design, which can be re-used indefinitely). I will pay a $600-800 premium over the most basic model for this, retail. Call it $1500.

... but in fact the nice parts I want aren't available except on very "high-end" models that start at like $2.5k from a dent-n-ding outlet (let alone full retail) with tons of extra crap, and you pay significantly more for counter depth in most cases (I guess economies of scale make them solidly 10% more expensive, despite the savings in materials?). It sucks, I just want a basic fridge that looks & feels nice and doesn't stick out into my kitchen like some kind of menacing mechanical monster, but is not a rip-off. Pretty much doesn't exist.

[EDIT] actually it's fair to say that "nice, simple, and reasonably priced for the extras it takes to achieve 'nice'" is a category markets often fail to deliver for me. They seem to be great at delivering cheap and crappy, cheap and kinda OK (think: all non-Ikea flat-pack furniture for the former, Ikea for the latter), expensive and crappy, and expensive and actually good. There's a middle-market that seemingly never gets served and sends me looking for antiques, when possible. I suspect the reason for these outcomes boil down to information asymmetry, like lots of problems with markets.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by owenmarshall on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:12PM (#23490357)
Ah, the free market...

Many manufacturers sell to retailers under a unilateral minimum price policy. You can buy from the manufacturer and stock your showroom, but you are not allowed to mark it below a certain price. You'll also see payments from the manufacturer to the retailer in the form of "advertising support" to drive certain models. So you'll end up with a retailer:

* Paying $500 per unit (A) which they cannot mark below $399, but buying a certain amount at a loss to receive a payment from the manufacturer for paper/web/TV advertisements contingent on including A in the advertisement and possibly even presenting it in a certain way on the sales floor (endcap, front display, etc.)

* Paying $450 per unit for unit (B) which they cannot mark below $599

The goal for the retailer is then obviously to buy as few of the first unit as possible to get the manufacturer payment and then push as many customers as possible to buy the second. The manufacturer is happy because unit A was last year's model rebadged and they could clear inventory and move towards retiring it.

The real top end items are sold under unilateral fixed pricing: you pay $X and must retail it for $Y. Manufacturers have people employed to mystery shop and look for violations. If a retailer marks up or marks down, they are blacklisted. Possibly for all lines, not just the marquee brand - depends on your sales.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by rootusrootus on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:07PM (#23490292)
So what you really want is what Speed Queen would make if they made refrigerators. I am 100% with you.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by Corrado on Friday June 12, 2020 @02:30AM (#23496616)
Unfortunately, it's my understanding that Speed Queen has also succumbed to the cost-cutting measures of plastic parts and things that can't be replaced / repaired easily.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by a1a1a1a1a1a1 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:22PM (#23490439)
Having worked briefly at a major appliance company, I can say that refrigerator design is not simple. Refrigerators aren't made to just cool things down, the entire interior is expected to stay at a uniform temperature. As a result, many refrigerators have more heating elements than ovens. There's a ton of testing that needs to happen to determine hot spots, cold spot, poorly insulated areas, etc. and that's just for the cooling. Also the current refrigerant used in refrigerators (driven by regulation) is very close to propane, it has an explosion risk, so that mandates tons of specific testing. The real issue is that the release cycles of appliances are so much shorter than the expected life cycles. There are life tests for appliances, but they have to be accelerated massively, so it's not a great representation of the lifetime use of the appliances. All of that to say the data collected by an internet connected appliance is of huge value to the manufacturer. They can get data from the appliance for it's entire life, usage and performance of specific components, etc. Manufacturers are going to find as many cheap ways as possible to tempt consumers to connecting their products to the internet so they can get that data back. It's unlikely the trend is going to slow down.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by kaibee on Thursday June 11, 2020 @12:37PM (#23490611)
> the entire interior is expected to stay at a uniform temperature.

Surely this is as simple as adding a small fan so that air circulates inside?

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by a1a1a1a1a1a1 on Sunday June 14, 2020 @12:07PM (#23518788)
I'm not an expert in the field of refrigeration so I'm speculating a bit, but I believe the won't work because the cause of inconsistency of temperature is that the insulation isn't as effective at every part of the cabinet (probably due to shape, what components are packed around the cabinet, etc.) so moving air over those areas would cause heat to enter the cabinet faster, requiring more cooling power. That might be effective, but I think the approach that's taken is more efficient, and that's what refrigerators are all about (They move like 2-3x more heat energy out of the cabinet that is put into the compressor, fans, etc.). The less movement of the air inside the more effective the insulation will be.

It's also worth noting that just insulating better isn't really an option (without developing better insulation) because refrigerators need to have as large as possible interior volume compared to exterior volume to be competitive, what can be fit inside is a definite selling point.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by account47t83 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @06:43PM (#23494026)
I believe that won't work for the same reason that I can't cool my house with one A/C window unit and a big fan
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by greggman3 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @08:47AM (#23488210)
Game consoles? They aren't cheap and I can't think off the top of my head what the consumables are for a game console. Certainly not the games any more than blurays are for bluray players. Switch uses standard USB-C etc. You can use 3rd party network adaptors, micro-sd cards, etc. PS4 takes standard 3rd party hard drives, usb-sticks, ...

I guess I'm not saying how this fits

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by fuzzer37 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:03AM (#23488356)
Console makers tend to lose money on console sales [0], but they then are able to make it up in selling things like (but not limited to): Online Access (Nintendo Online, PSPlus, Xbox gold), Games, and possibly ads, should they choose to display any,

[0]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080515/econo...

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by Nextgrid on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:07AM (#23488390)
Console manufacturers make money through licensing fees paid by game developers. The consoles themselves are usually sold at or below cost.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by newsclues on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:11AM (#23488432)
Games

Controllers (Licensed accessories)

Services (online)

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by bryanrasmussen on Thursday June 11, 2020 @08:10AM (#23487947)
I figure the reasoning is this:

soon everyone will do this, by the time someone who had this happen to them and got mad gets around to buying another fridge it will be industry wide procedure - therefore they will accept it (or do without a fridge) and then they will buy our product based on some other calculation than if it has the mal-feature that every other fridge will have.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by LatteLazy on Thursday June 11, 2020 @11:32AM (#23489922)
A lot of electronics sell for less than cost and break even/profit based on consumables. PS4s made a loss when they came out and Sony relied on games sales to correct that. The same was true of safety razors and blades 100 years ago and electric razors today.

Sadly this means products often arnt designed for you or me (I hate the idea of advertising built into Samsungs TV). But those are the economics in this situation...

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by m463 on Thursday June 11, 2020 @05:48PM (#23493634)
I was talking to a friend who had worked an a PC oem.

People would ask him why they wouldn't offer a linux version.

The answer was - it would cost more because their monetization strategy netted something like $60 per machine - which actually made the linux machine more expensive.

(this was a couple of years ago, numbers might be different)

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by lotsofpulp on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:24AM (#23487633)
>Do the vast majority of people just not care?

Considering they have the most market share, people do not care enough about the malware they install versus the lower price offered on the malware ridden TVs.

Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by eveningcoffee on Thursday June 11, 2020 @07:57AM (#23487856)
Use whitelists.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by aquabeagle on Thursday June 11, 2020 @09:14AM (#23488472)
I think we're supposed to call them "allowlists" now.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by thejynxed on Friday June 12, 2020 @01:38PM (#23501660)
Eyeroll.
Re:GE Fridge DRM Workaround by eveningcoffee on Thursday June 11, 2020 @03:53PM (#23492709)
Good point. Did not find a synonym.