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Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by danielrpa on Monday May 04, 2020 @08:54AM (#23067391)
The best way to prevent spreading diseases at the office is to not require your employees to go to the office - assuming WFH is compatible with the company's business.

I work at a FAANG company which was aggressively opposed to WFH before the covid-19 crisis. As matter of fact, I recently changed teams within said company and during the informational interview I asked about the team's policy on WFH - the answer was that "our team has a strong 'collaborative in-the-office' culture, so we don't encourage WFH"

I am not kidding, we're talking about one of the most advanced companies in history and they required domestic travel+hotel for trivial half-day, mostly passive interview training that could have been done easily over teleconference, that's how much this company values physical presence.

Fast forward a few months, everybody is WFH in the company and the sky hasn't fallen. Actually, my productivity vastly increased because I'm fortunate to have a solid WFH environment at home (despite kids/wife around).

While I'm not proposing mandatory WFH for tech companies, neither saying that it works for everybody, I believe our top companies could lead and finally allow people who demonstrate that they can be productive at home to just stay home - permanently.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by wdn on Monday May 04, 2020 @09:43AM (#23067937)
This is a problem with incompetent managers. They failed to understand the different between productivity and sitting.

Last company I worked for, the CEO said to me he doesn't care where anyone work as long as the work get done well. However, this was not the case with my own manager. He micro managed everything. He had an office manager sitting with the engineers reporting to him multiple times a day on if the engineers were sitting on the desk. You can feel you are being watch the moment you step into the office. It was an absolute shit place to work for.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:37AM (#23069278)
> He micro managed everything. He had an office manager sitting with the engineers reporting to him multiple times a day on if the engineers were sitting on the desk.

I really related to this in my last role. It's the butts-in-chairs method vs output because let's be real... most of the people promoted to middle-management can't measure actual output.

I've always been on the edge of being a manager vs. being IC and the times I've bled over into management I have this style: you're expected to be here early by 30 minutes for meetings, and if you wanna leave directly after to go work from your home office I could care less. I expect workers to be highly available via chat and phone during normal business hours (adjusted to the timezone), and generally flexible if something comes up where I need 'em in the mothership.

To measure output and success, whelp I just get on the corporate GitLab and read everyone's commits daily. Not only do I learn a TON working with solid talent... I also know who's jerkin' me around. Does this work for every WFH-type employee? Nope. Managing devs gives you a ton of black-and-white paper trails to ensure people are working the right direction.

In contrast, throughout my IC career none of my managers have managed ME this way which blows my mind. I know I'm not the most talented leader but I don't understand why dev management doesn't look at real metrics to gauge success outside of "I don't know how to read code"... =|

The way I managed also bought loyalty... like a lot of loyalty. When you get out of the way of people's lives and say, "I'm willing to make this career work with you as a person" you get an insane amount of forgiveness for being a poop manager in other areas.

Did people take advantage of me giving them this slack? Yep. Did I fire 'em for poor output? Yep - at will state sucka. IMO you'll get people taking advantage of the system regardless of how you wanna lead so the best way to hedge that risk is looking at metrics + engaging consistently with your team. Bad apples tend to stick out in a few months and you just gotta learn to fire fast to maintain the integrity of the team vs pumping your staff numbers.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by james-mcelwain on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:50PM (#23070350)
I've often been tempted to show my less-technical manager our commit log, but have always avoided it because I can't see any way it wouldn't turn into some stupid game about commits and lines of code changed.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:16PM (#23070692)
I'd say about 70-80% of managers I've had couldn't build or work on the product that they're tasked with managing. And... I resent that.

The truth is you need near-100% understanding of the code going into the product to really gauge someone's participation accurately. Looking at LOC, # of commits, etc. is all fluid so while they describe properties of the story, they're not the actual story itself.

Also, there's up and down weeks. I've watched my top performers have poop weeks where they've only been able to crank out a couple of small features, or maybe just resolved one issue, etc. I feel like if micro-managers saw this they'd put the hurt on em... for me it literally never came up because within 1-2 weeks they'd be back on the rails. I was always like "huh - musta been some human stuff." Or, heck... sometimes I could tell they just moved a bit slower on more mundane tasks. When I put myself in a position to relate to that I find that I have the same lulls, lack of motivation for mundane work, etc.

People NOT getting back on the rails after 1-2 weeks of meh was the exception! I also felt like I could demand more of my team during the 2-3 crank-it-out periods that inevitably occurred throughout the year because I had respected their time leading up to that... IDK.

All-in-all if specs were being respected, code was clean/reasonably PR'd, deadlines were hit, and meetings were well prep'd for + attended I felt that we were being successful.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by mywittyname on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:37PM (#23072969)
I feel the urge to commend your approach to manage your team.

When I'm having off-weeks, I'm painfully aware of them. It causes me a lot of personal stress and anxiety. My manager is like you and never calls me out of it during our standups. He may ping me and ask how I'm doing, etc. I'm glad he doesn't call me out on it because that would just amplify my anxiety and probably make things worse.

You're right, after a week, maybe two, I get right back on the horse and manage to catch up.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:05PM (#23073235)
Sounds like a solid manager!

People wanna feel safe... And go figure, when they do their output usually goes from being minimal effort to above and beyond. Also feeling safe has sooooo many more institutional benefits etc. Errors are identified + corrected quicker, people don't play politics near as much, things just get "easier"... hard to explain.

But yea - definitely give that guy some positive feedback in your 1:1's. That was one thing that helped me really design a system that people wanted to work within, solid feedback when things work/didn't work =)

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by crankylinuxuser on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:46PM (#23073048)
Wasnt there a story about a graybeard who, upon being turned into a gamafied LOC programmer, ended up changing 2 lines and removing 2000?

He put -1998 lines on his daily email?

And I think that hits to the core of Goodhart's law:

""When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.""

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:34PM (#23073581)
Lol - old graybeard ... it was Bill freakin' Atkinson. Author of HyperCard and one of my heroes!

This story came up often when I said I read the commits daily. I would just roll my eyes and say "I read code, I don't look at arbitrary LOC".

If the story is true it shows incompetence with the managers to pick such an arbitrary metric to measure with. Plus, when you start policing people like this you can damn-near guarantee motivation goes in the trashcan because now it's a "me vs. you" thing... and eww who wants to come to work with THAT?!

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by Moto7451 on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:51PM (#23073101)
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by crankylinuxuser on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:03PM (#23073218)
Indeed! That's it :)

Thank you for finding it.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by epicureanideal on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:53PM (#23071838)
Does anyone have any theories about why this is the case about middle management? How does this happen? I've seen this almost everywhere I've worked. I have my own theories, but I'd really like to hear what others think about this.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by DanBC on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:57PM (#23071884)
Maybe it's that if people can do the job you want to keep them doing it. If they can't you move them, and often moving people up is the easiest thing to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by lowdose on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:00PM (#23074385)
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by ishjoh on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:40PM (#23071668)
where there are dips in productivity it can also be that they're getting up to speed on an area of the codebase they are not familiar with. Ramp-up time is always difficult to account for but is absolutely something everyone needs when looking at new code.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:19PM (#23072152)
Yep! Or even just people documenting could look weird on metrics/etc. I'd admit I was in the dark a lot, and that many times I would be perceiving a "productivity dip" when it was a situation like you're describing.

I learned quick to not make assumptions, and to hire/retain people who I could trust... I also requested informal reports ever 48hrs or so with links to what you'd been working on, PR's, documentation, etc. Reports were sent to a distro list of all team members and replaced traditional stand-ups. So generally if I was in the dark it would all be figured out in due time without having to get up someone's butt. I feel like it kept everyone accountable and transparent when everything was in writing.

Also with ramp-up specifically... since I was paying attention to the hard metrics I started to get a feel for when something was difficult vs. easy. Projects that would kick people down for simple tasks would get priority for refactor, difficult onboarding was usually met with aggressive documentation, etc. Over time you got a taste of what these beasts were without even being an IC on them.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by caseysoftware on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:03PM (#23070526)
"Your lines of code contributed is negative! Why do we pay you? You should be paying us!" - No one, I hope..
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by Jach on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:30PM (#23073530)
I've been reading The Psychology of Computer Programming recently and enjoying it quite a bit. One fun bit is each chapter ends with some questions for reflection -- both for programmers, and for managers. I laughed a bit at the end of the first chapter, where the first question for managers is: "If you are a first-line manager, are you capable of reading the programs written by your programmers? ... If you are capable, do you read them? If you don't, why not try it and see what you find?"

The next set of questions: "If you are a higher-level manager, are your first-line managers capable of reading programs ... ? ... Our surveys indicate that nine-tenths do not ... Do you think it is possible for a first-line manager to know how good his programmers are or how well they are doing without occasionally reading their programs?"

I'm glad to read your report to know that at least somewhere out there exist software managers that seem to 'get' that code is (or should be) the central artifact in all the crap we programmers produce. Not that the other stuff isn't valuable, but things can still work without it, whereas without the code nothing works. My remaining fantasy is to encounter a software manager who is familiar with Deming's work and has thought about how to apply it to software management.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:57PM (#23073808)
> My remaining fantasy is to encounter a software manager who is familiar with Deming's work and has thought about how to apply it to software management.

Am familiar and in my experience TQM is just as cargo-cult as Six Sigma, Waterfall, Agile, etc etc. You get these highly-stylized idealist models, often which have books and courses, then the consultants... Ugh. IDK - all of this crap is noise to me. I found Deming's work super thick, and honestly I'm probably too much of a simpleton to really "get it"... =|

In contrast, my personal commandments are near-100% inspired from the two lists:

* Tom Sach's "10 Bullets" (how to work)

* Joel Spolsky's "The Joel Test" (how to run an effective software company)

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by Jach on Monday May 04, 2020 @07:57PM (#23074801)
Haven't come across Tom Sach's list, I'll give them a look and reflect. I still like Spolsky's list though. It's always fun to think about which points the industry (or one's own employer) has consolidated on by now and which it hasn't -- hard to imagine there exist many 12s on the prevalence of this item's open offices topic alone, and even Microsoft isn't a 12 anymore as far as I know. (Maybe parts are.)

It doesn't surprise me to hear there's a ton of BS around Deming's work (it's had even longer to build itself up) but I still think there are valuable things there that software companies, especially larger ones, are missing... And we seem to have the existence proof of there being something to it (i.e. Japan's rise, and later on US companies adopting things... though as Jobs once noted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kib6uXQsxBA) customers won't think highly of your quality if you keep shipping garbage despite winning a Deming Award or having all sorts of advertising that claims high quality).

Even starting from the surface root level with Deming's "System of Profound Knowledge" -- his 4 key components -- I see a total lack of "Knowledge about variation" all over the place. Without some intuition of variation you can't even appreciate what you mentioned about how programmers sometimes just seem to have "off weeks", and from what I've read Deming wanted the understanding to be more deep than a basic "yeah things vary" instinct, and to know it applies not only to individuals or individual units of work (e.g. red beans experiment) but to larger scopes as well. Ultimately the knowledge needs mathematical grounding (specifically in probability and statistics), which is something else sorely lacking in management trees (and even more and more on the programming side). If there are things like TQM certifications out there that don't imply a holder has a certain level of mathematical sophistication with statistics, that's all the more damning to the certificates and bodies of work around them, but not I don't think to the importance of such knowledge...

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by folkhack on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @10:24AM (#23080304)
I've been thinking since yesterday and I think I'm going to jump back into Deming's work... do you have a good starting point? I had the realization that I hadn't read "Out of the Crisis" since my early 20's, and I've had a few bad run-ins with super-corporate weirdos slinging his theory like snake oil after that.

> Ultimately the knowledge needs mathematical grounding (specifically in probability and statistics), which is something else sorely lacking in management trees (and even more and more on the programming side)

This is one of the biggest struggles of my career... dealing with quantifying something that's incredibly difficult to quantify.

---

Glad you're checking out Tom Sachs' list! It's an odd one for sure - weird artsy video and all. It's about an art studio in NY and how it manages it's people/process. It's sorta hokey I'll admit, but I find the simplicity of it helps me get back on the rails myself during those times of variation =)

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by kyuudou on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:25PM (#23073480)
In a way remote work removes a lot of the "kiss my butt for rewards" crap. Funny how that fleshes out.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by fancyfish on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @03:37AM (#23077474)
This. You need to be able to constantly and quickly cull the weakest from your team. After a while you’ll recognize the best ones and run a Tier 1 top-talent team supported by metrics, and the weak will move on. The strong will have room to grow without micromanagement.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by otachack on Monday May 04, 2020 @09:53AM (#23068068)
Managers can contribute to this but in my opinion it's a cultural inclination and we've all been thrust into it due to the pandemic. The forced move to WFH will be eye opening to everyone, managers included, and will also give credit to subordinates with cut and dry experience.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by cbg0 on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:14PM (#23070654)
> The forced move to WFH will be eye opening to everyone, managers included

I think you're overly optimistic about this, most just see Covid as a temporary inconvenience and will go back to business as usual when this ends. Sure, some smart managers may see the value, but I'd wager most of them are set in their ways.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by Traster on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:31PM (#23073545)
This is also a problem with incompetent engineers. They fail to understand the difference between building relationships and transmitting technical information.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by marklacey on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:37PM (#23076226)
This is something I’ve seen called “butts-in-seats management”, and yes, I’ve seen it in practice.

Many years ago I had a new skip-level manager who emailed me one day saying that he had dropped by my office a few times to introduce himself but I was never around and he was really concerned with the fact that I never seemed to be in my office working. I am relatively certain every time he dropped by I was either in a colleagues office discussing a work issue or had run down to grab a coffee. But to him this was “concerning”.

He didn’t last long. I believe he moved on in 8-12 months.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by specialist on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:50PM (#23071098)
Could the micromanager write code?

People who can't work, manage.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by dmoy on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:19PM (#23073408)
I always heard (from a teacher, in a self deprecating fashion):

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

Those who can't teach, teach others to teach.

Those who can't teach others to teach become school/Uni administrators.

...

In reality I think it's hard to teach stuff you can't do, and teaching it becomes a great way to learn how it actually works.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by gridlockd on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:55PM (#23071852)
> People who can't work, manage.

People who can't manage, work.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by mhb on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:12PM (#23071347)
Only microcode
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by danesparza on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:29PM (#23071537)
This is a new expression that I have never heard before, yet immediately understand and love. Thank you for this. I'm going to start using it more.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by bitwize on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:38PM (#23070953)
Human beings are irrational, social animals. Showing up for work at the office, on time, early in the morning, is a strong social signal that you are committed to work. These signals matter almost as much as whether the work gets done.

Ultimately you will be judged on how well the work gets done -- but the social signals are table stakes.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by elliekelly on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:08PM (#23071304)
When I was in law school I was fortunate enough to have a paid internship at an investment company that came with a small office. Since it wasn’t too far from school I started to use my office to study even when I wasn’t working. It was a quiet place to get things done and when I was on-site I would occasionally get pulled in to cool projects. It seemed like a good way to get a few more opportunities at work and also get my homework done without all the gossiping that happened at the library.

That meant I spent most of the work week “at work” even though I was only actually working some of that time. I did all of my work and I did a good job but at the end of the year I was the only intern to get a bonus checks. Interns weren’t even eligible for bonuses but my bosses were so blown away by my dedication they decided to reward it. The craziest part is they knew I was doing homework half the time. I had gotten the okay to use my office as a study spot first and they were getting my timesheets every week. They were well aware that I wasn’t some sort full-time super intern.

I think the whole concept of “facetime” pretty silly but it definitely matters even if we like to think it doesn’t.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by TechBro8615 on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:25PM (#23071492)
Maybe they were impressed by your consistency. Whether you’re studying or working, showing up every day on a consistent schedule is quite impressive especially for a college kid.

In my experience it’s consistency, more than anything else, that separates the best performers from average performers.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by hombre_fatal on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:51PM (#23072509)
One of the hardest parts about remote work is that you don't get that signal anymore.

Grinding away and doing nothing can look like the same thing from your coworkers'/managers' point of view. Or, on days where you just aren't feeling it or can't be productive, you can't just look productive by sitting in your office chair. Instead you basically burn a day and it's easy to start having thoughts like "wow, they must think I'm useless."

I love remote work because I love the freedom to live where I please, but this is one aspect of it that gives me some anxiety. The subconscious "I see you in the office so you must be productive" signal really is strong.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by noelsusman on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:33AM (#23069223)
I worked from home two days a week before this, and moving to working from home every day has hurt my productivity. I've found it much more difficult to collaborate with colleagues remotely compared to being in the same space for most of the day. Before I used my WFH days for head-down focused work and my in-office days for collaboration. That worked really well for me.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by 01100011 on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:16PM (#23069838)
Yep. I routinely work 2-3 days from home every week. Full time WFH sucks. There are times when I just need to be at the office. There are times when the distractions at home are too much.

Now I've had jobs where 100% WFH was fine, but that's when I was in a real home with a real office, not my tiny SiValley apartment.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by mvanbaak on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:03PM (#23073217)
Fulltime WFH means you can live somewhere where the housing prices are less insane. So you can have a desicated work place (either seperate room or seperate desk somewhere). Thets the whole thing!
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by maccard on Monday May 04, 2020 @06:35PM (#23074175)
I don't particularly want to live somewhere other than where I live right now though, I want to live here and only go into the office 3 times a week.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by acituan on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:35PM (#23070098)
How is your productivity now that the rest of the office is also WFH? I imagine there is an asymmetry in perceived productivity if you’re the only one WFH, but it could be a different ballgame when it is more common. This could easily carry to post-pandemic e.g. weekly WFH days for everyone.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by sharadov on Monday May 04, 2020 @01:54PM (#23071135)
The FAANG's overwhelmingly employ younger folks, give them the college atmosphere - free food, drinks, laundry on site, foosball table. And they spend their entire day at work for these so-called "benefits". I met one guy who was so happy that his company provided breakfast, lunch, and dinner at work, thought it was the greatest thing, he felt bad that he could not have the same arrangement for the weekend. I was like, dude, you live once, get a fuckin life!
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by JMTQp8lwXL on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:14PM (#23071390)
It's not a terminal thing. Work for a FANG for ~10 years then retire early. But over those 10 years, hustle hard and save what you can.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by muro on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:05PM (#23071968)
The pay is good, but if you have a family, saving enough in 10 years to retire is unlikely.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by JMTQp8lwXL on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:44PM (#23072436)
Not in the Bay Area, but a more affordable area of the US, it's possible. And if you plan on retiring early, there's no need to live in a housing market around lots of profitable tech businesses that make housing expensive.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by neffy on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:40PM (#23071673)
As long as you pick the right 10 years.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by sharadov on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:47PM (#23075876)
The smart ones are playing the arbitrage game, by living in an RV and keeping costs down.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by maccard on Monday May 04, 2020 @06:31PM (#23074138)
I support the meals in the office as a real meaningful perk. It's usually not a taxable perk, and Covid has shown me that with snacks (crisps, chocate,soft drinks, a cookid with a coffee), breakfast top ups (I bring oats to work and use fruit from the office), office coffee (im going through a bag a week rather than a bag a month right now), my food spend has at least doubled.

The food isn't amazing but it's usually pretty good, there's little to no clean up (giving me back an hour or so a week of prep and cleaning time), it forces me into a routine of lunch at 12:30, and nobody is forcing me into it so sometimes I bring my own.

> I was like, dude, you live once, get a fuckin life!

Work is a big part of life (in terms of time spent), even if you stick strictly to a 9-5. Its not unreasonable to try and make it comfortable, or possibly even pleasant or enjoyable at times.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by sharadov on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:02PM (#23075983)
You seem to have a balance, good for you.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:35PM (#23072336)
Meal planning, preparation, and cleaning is a non-trivial task and time sink for many people.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by 121789 on Monday May 04, 2020 @06:11PM (#23073969)
3 healthy meals provided a day for free with someone else cleaning for you is a huge benefit if you're young. Many places have breakfast until 10 and dinner starting at 6, so it's not even a big departure from a normal workday
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by sharadov on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:52PM (#23075912)
Breakfast and lunch is ok, once you start talking "free dinner" it gets suspicious. Also, there is a huge problem where the "young" never truly become adults and learn some life skills. I quite enjoy making a meal, while I work my way through a nice craft cocktail, while there is a good track playing in the background. I zealously guard my time after work for sports, hobbies and for people near and dear to me.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by papreclip on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:40PM (#23070191)
>I'm fortunate to have a solid WFH environment at home

I feel this is pretty important. I am only renting a room (not making FAANG money) and as such quarantine has me spending nearly 24 hours a day in my bedroom. I can't follow the standard advice of maintaining a separate space for work

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by lozaning on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:55PM (#23070410)
I feel you on this. I live in a studio loft, so I've only got one room total really. Time has no meaning, days bleed together and my work/live ballence has gone to shit.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by marssaxman on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:34PM (#23072325)
I had a remote job for seven years, most of which I spent living in a couple of studio apartments, so - as you're experiencing - there was no way to separate work space from living space. In order to keep from having time become a blur, I had to develop some artificial rituals around beginning and especially ending the work day.

At one apartment I slept on a folding futon couch. I would "go to work" by folding it up and putting all the pillows away. Ta-da, now I'm "in the office", time to work. Done with work? Close the laptop, leave the apartment, walk around the block, maybe get a snack, come back home. Hey! I just came home from work, time to relax. Leaving the apartment and re-entering it, even if I was only gone a few minutes, was a really useful signal.

Later on I decided to strictly separate personal computing from work computing. No personal website logins on the work computer; no company code or email accouts on the personal computer. I also tried putting DNS blocks on my favorite recreational web sites on the work computer, so I'd be forced to swivel my chair around and use the personal computer. This way, I could carry on with email, browsing the web, and writing code on personal projects after work hours, using my personal machine, without feeling like I was still "at work" on my work machine.

I don't know what will work for you, but perhaps choosing to create some artificial barriers like these will help.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by beart on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:22PM (#23071464)
I've been having the same issue. One thing I noticed that helps is to at least make sure work is done on a different laptop that gets shutdown and put away after 5 PM.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by WorldMaker on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:54PM (#23071844)
Something I still find fascinating is how much GAFAM/FAANG invested in remote work software for their customers (all but Apple and Netflix) but never had a good handle on using those same tools internally because they didn't have strong remote work policies/cultures. Good for the goose, but the gander doesn't care to dog food. (To badly mix metaphors.)

I very much hope all of GAFAM/FAANG are paying attention and learning from this situation.

(I've asked about remote work policies every time I've ever interviewed with GAFAM/FAANG. I've seen such a fascinating mix of hypocrisy about remote work in such interviews.)

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by Analemma_ on Monday May 04, 2020 @09:29AM (#23067783)
I’m curious which FAANG you worked at that strongly discouraged WFH. I’ve worked at two now, including the one that’s sort of notorious for treating employees terribly, and both of them were fine with WFH when necessary. I sort of got the sense that they were all more or less OK with it.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by kleinsch on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:41AM (#23068627)
I work at a FAANG. They’re OK with you working from home 1-2 days/week to run errands, etc, but not OK with 100% WFH except rare exceptions (usually people who have been at the company a while before moving). That may be what OP means. I’ll be curious to see if fully remote becomes more of a possibility based on how the next few months go.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by acituan on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:32PM (#23070050)
That changes wildly from team to team. I worked for one team where there was a set WFH day of the week. I had another team where 11am standup meetings were held everyday, and this was mostly for the benefit of the people manage who was very technically disinterested in what’s going on but wanted to enforce “coherence”, needless to say WFH was impossible. In another team, manager wasn’t comfortable allowing WFH because “it would create inequality between engineers” i.e he was just afraid of making a judgement call. Finally, had a team where manager would WFH 1-3 times a week himself and was actually the best manager of all in terms of being on top of things.

The sentiment that this is heavily dependent on manager competence is correct IMHO.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by pgm8705 on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:04AM (#23068180)
My guess is Apple.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by starpilot on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:17PM (#23069861)
People only say FAANG instead of FANG if it's Apple. Otherwise I could only see it as Amazon. But Amazon had people WFH almost immediately, since being here in Seattle it was the start of the outbreak in the US.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by saagarjha on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:51PM (#23070354)
> People only say FAANG instead of FANG if it's Apple.

I don't think this is true. Actually, most people would like to replace "N" with "M" in that acronym, but then it sounds much worse…

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by nostrademons on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:56PM (#23070425)
I'm partial to "MAGA" as the initialism for the top 4 tech companies by market cap (Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple). Facebook and Netflix are a tier below in market cap and size, and it also makes it clear who's really making America great again...
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by WorldMaker on Monday May 04, 2020 @02:50PM (#23071802)
I've seen GAFAM a lot, and that's the one I tend to favor.

MAFANG (maybe?) if you really want to get Netflix in there? I know some people especially in the Bay Area think Netflix is important in the acronym not necessarily by market cap, but overall head count versus turnover and thus cultural swing (policies like "unlimited vacation" that started at Netflix and then in turn influenced a lot of other surrounding Bay Area companies).

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by cameronbrown on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:23PM (#23069946)
It could be any. All FAANGs have their subcultures.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by saagarjha on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:52PM (#23070366)
Sounds very much like the company which spent recently spent $5 billion on suburban open offices.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by CydeWeys on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:05AM (#23068190)
It could easily be Google.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by nine_k on Monday May 04, 2020 @11:12PM (#23076073)
If I were to WFH "permanently", for years and years, I'd like my employer to share some of the savings from not having an office with me.

I would spend it on renting a bigger apartment with an extra room to use as my office.

Don't get me wrong: I love my wife and kids dearly. But having anything done requires concentration and some moderate insulation from distractions. Achieving this from a coach in the living room is hard. Grabbing my kid's room only works as long as the school day isn't over, and not at all during a recess, like, say, the whole summer. My wife already works from home, so our bedroom doubles as her office.

I didn't need a proper workplace as long as my employers provided me with (a piece of) an office. Now that they stopped due to the quarantine, its lack becomes a significant problem.

Obviously, some would say: leave your expensive city, move to somewhere really cheap, in the middle of (almost) nowhere! Two problems. (1) What about schools there? (2) When enough people move into a cheap and convenient place, it quickly ceases to be as cheap.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by perseusprime11 on Monday May 04, 2020 @03:51PM (#23072507)
We want everyone in the office so we can waste their time in meetings. Peter's principle in action.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by rozap on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:25PM (#23072849)
That's perfectly easy to accomplish while remote, too.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by cableshaft on Wednesday May 06, 2020 @12:44AM (#23087974)
The longest meetings I've ever been in were while working remote. Major sev 1 outage bridges with 200+ attendees where it takes 6+ hours (My longest was 27 hours, and that was after demanding to my boss I finally take a break to get some sleep, and the problem still wasn't resolved for another two hours. Beat my previous longest Sev 1 by 3 hours). to get the right people to join / figure out what's going on / get someone's attention long enough to work on your problems instead of other departments? So fun. /s
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by perseusprime11 on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @09:03AM (#23079553)
Folks can at least multi task remotely and do the real work.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by dschuler on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:14AM (#23068291)
Do you think your company will go back to WFO eventually or will some of the WFH changes stick?
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by lozaning on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:41PM (#23070207)
Im curious what happens when my employer says its time to come back into the office and I just say no, don't show up, but keep working.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by saagarjha on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:52PM (#23070377)
Perhaps they'll cut off your VPN access.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by duckkg5 on Tuesday May 05, 2020 @09:21AM (#23079729)
I was at a FAANG for years. I was the ONLY ONE on my team in the office - the rest of my team was in London. So I would literally drive to the multi-million dollar office on multi-million dollar real estate then dial up some people in London from my laptop.

During my exit interview after I resigned, I told my director I was leaving partially because I wanted to work remotely more and that they should either encourage or at least allow more WFH. She laughed, said they don't do that there, and told me that I'd be back.

Now they're all working from home and I'm with a new remote-friendly company with no plans on ever going back to the FAANG world. Good riddance.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by summerlight on Monday May 04, 2020 @05:20PM (#23073414)
There's bunch of things other than productivity that make companies (especially for those multinational giants) hesitant to allow full WFH + remote, like tax/visa/regulatory issues. It's not impossible, but the cost adds up.

I guess the benefits outweigh the costs now, so I hope those companies will more proactively consider more WFH friendy employment options.

Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by andarleen on Monday May 04, 2020 @10:18AM (#23068337)
It’s easier to micromanage staff, and much more convenient for playing office politics when on site - hence management is usually against wfh. It boggles the mind.
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by 0x8BADF00D on Monday May 04, 2020 @04:34PM (#23072938)
Something has to change. There is no reason why every tech company shouldn’t have a permanent WFH policy. Let people live further out from cities. It’s 2020, why are we still working like it’s the 1950s?
Re:Companies consider abandoning open office layouts to prev... by therealjumbo on Monday May 04, 2020 @12:03PM (#23069651)
I guess you'll have to mop up your tears with that 300k.