Amazon is doing pretty well due to the quarantine (as they deserve to given the services they provide). Them having to reduce their share of the profits from these extraordinary times is not particularly noble, but rather just average.
The United States hasn't even passed the first stage of Corona yet (in SF, daily number of deaths is still rising). It is too early to mandate come backs.
Here in SF, multiple employees at 3 Whole Foods locations have already contracted Covid. Amazon has not done nearly enough thus far. The fact that they are now providing masks and cleaning up door handles is again, a bare minimum.
They should let exigent time off policies rein for at least 2 more months, before going back to business as normal policies.
Please realize, that even despite all of the above, their profits will keep rising through this period; there is no reason to think of them as victims, when they very much so are winners in this situation. Foregoing just a little bit of your extra profits to ensure your workers stay healthy in unprecedented times of a pandemic is not asking for too much.
Huh? It's more or less flat. https://covid-19.direct/county/CA/San%20Francisco?tab=peakde...
In fact probably better than flat - 2 deaths in last 7 days is lower than any 7 day period in April.
Considering multiple states are larger than many European countries, I don't think it's appropriate to treat the US as a monolithic entity with respect to virus containment. Even if all of the states reacted identically, time and space dictate that different regions will be in different stages at any given time.
It's simply a fact. Total death counts in the US are still going up.
Once the quarantine is relaxed and things "open up", we WILL go through a second wave. That is by design of shelter in place.
Why the defensiveness on part of the US? With or without the above, it's response has been terrible. Why defend bad practices?
It depends on the state, though. New deaths are decreasing in many States, including Washington, Texas, and California [1]. Looking at the US, as a whole, isn't really useful here.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/washington-coron...
The United States is a nation. It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease.
People can travel freely within these bounds without passports or visas or checkpoints.
Of course states have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some states are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing the incompetence of one nation?
This is how nation-states work in 2020 on planet Earth.
People can travel freely within Member States without passports, visas, or checkpoints.
Of course, Member States have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some Member States are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing the incompetence of one Union?
This is how Unions work in 2020 on planet Earth.
I think we both agree that looking at the EU as a whole is totally meaningless in the context of the current discussion about Amazon workers. We are simply arguing the same about the United States. This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples.
P.S. Speaking of "Nation-States", hilariously enough, Gavin Newsom recently referred to California as a "Nation State"[4].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Coun...
[4] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/coronav...
I'm still flabbergasted at the need to compare to the EU or European states.
No where in my original comments did I bring them up, or was thinking of them. Your snide metaphor also doesn't work since the EU does not override the nation-state model. The EU parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations. The Health department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France. I understand you're going to compare this to two American states, but honestly, it doesn't work.
> This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples.
Again, when did I compare anything to Europe? You brought up the comparison for no reason I can comprehend. Hence my questions about the defensiveness.
I don't think we're going to agree, so happy to leave this here.
Now consider that the US is substantially larger and more sparsely populated. That alone ensures that it doesn't make any more sense to say "US is at stage 1" than it does to say "EU is at stage one", because that fails to capture the range of different stages in different geographic regions (countries/states). That doesn't even begin to capture policy differences.
That was the sole reason I brought it up. Nothing defensive anywhere.
The US and the EU are federations[2][3], and their sub-national units are sovereign. Like the EU, the US’s COVID strategy has been left to the States[4].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation#Federations
[3] https://gizmodo.com/why-is-the-united-states-considered-a-co...
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-stay...
My point was that you can't say even a country is in a certain stage because the outbreaks are much more local than that. London is a month ahead of some parts of the country. So its just as incorrect to say the UK is at a certain stage as it is to say it about the EU and USA.
If you can’t take it, then don’t dish it out.
> The EU Parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations
The same holds true for the Federal government of the US. The 10th Amendment ensures this. Similar to the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution, EU law overrides Member State law (E.g. GDPR).
> The Health Department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France
Yes, the same way the Minnesota Department of Health cannot make decisions on behalf of the New York State Department of Health.
> I understand you’re going to compare this to two American states, but honestly, it doesn’t work
Saying “it doesn’t work” again and again doesn’t magically make it true, you need to provide actual concrete counterpoints.
The US is a Union of States. The Federal government does not have the authority to issue lockdowns or stay-at-home orders. The vast majority of US testing is being funded and administered by States, not the Federal government. In practice, this is indistinguishable from the EU.
The US contains 330 million people, and consists of 50 different states, each with their own Constitutions, legislatures, and their own responses to COVID.
The EU contains 500 million people, and consists of 27 different states, each with their own Constitutions and legislatures.
We can do this all day, but it’s pretty clear that your argument doesn’t have any legs.
It certainly doesn't once you begin to ignore facts. Coming up with literal parallels is not a good argument. No wonder you can keep it going all day.
In either case, I'm going to stop because I still don't know why we're comparing the US and the EU. I didn't start the comparison, and it has no bearing on the subject.
Period.
The response is handled at the state level, not the federal level. The federal level can provide advice and help coordinate actions between states / provide backup resources, but isn't meant to take direct action.
This is invalid, because for example a couple of states could be bring the total number up. Further, again because of the scale of the US, policy appropriate for one state may not be appropriate for others.
Again, the issue here is treating the gigantic US, a mishmash of cultures in 50 states with semiautonomous governments, as a monolithic entity. If you evaluate response policy in this way you're not going to get a good signal.
That isn't true according to the numbers from https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en. Do you have a citation for that? Numbers for new deaths have been hovering between 0 and 5 for the last month in SF, SF has had a total of 22 people dead, due to successful lockdown measures it basically never hit SF.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/case...
Wildly irreaponsible and unqualified statement. Please stop being part of the problem.
The only goal posts you should care about are herd immunity or vaccination. Nothing else matters when discussing how much longer this pandemic will last.
edit: Wow you guys are really mad at me judging by all these downvotes. You're right, the pandemic is over, lift the stay-at-home orders!
For a long time I thought HN had higher quality discussion than Reddit, but in reality it's just the same BS with slightly larger words.
Absolutely not. If you believe enough information is known about herd-immunity in relation to Corona, you are dangerously misinformed.
Please don't play the "I thought you people were smarter" card if you're being downvoted for spreading misinformation.
Number of deaths DO matter in relation to: 1. Human suffering (perhaps the most important metric) 2. Learning how we prevent further deaths (calculating hospital and materials dissemination needs)
We are VERY FAR from the few responsible re-opening scenarios that exist: https://www.niskanencenter.org/tired-of-the-covid-lockdown-h...
(It it recommended we run 2 million tests a day in the US alone; the current number is 150,000).
> Number of deaths DO matter in relation to: 1. Human suffering (perhaps the most important metric) 2. Learning how we prevent further deaths (calculating hospital and materials dissemination needs)
Did I ever suggest otherwise? Literally all I said about "number of deaths" was that it does not tell us how close we are to the pandemic being over. You just brought up a bunch of other stuff to feel good about yourself.
I really did think you people were smarter though. Apparently you haven't even learned how to read something before you reply to it.
> If you believe enough information is known about herd-immunity in relation to Corona, you are dangerously misinformed.
Again, I never said anything about this. Please learn how to read. I'm not claiming to know how we reach the level of "herd immunity" we need to get out of this. I just said "herd immunity" or a vaccine would be the solution here. Am I wrong about that? Jesus fucking christ, the only thing HN does better than Reddit is self-righteousness and smug asshats.
Herd immunity would be nice - but so far none of the known coronavirus infections grant immunity. Herd immunity cries will only kill innocent people.
Herd immunity is more a myth than a fact right now.
How do you believe people recover from COVID-19?
The fact that you recover from it at all, and generate measurable antibodies in the process, and that humans generally gain some level of immunity to all the other coronaviruses we're plagued by weights my belief strongly towards at least short term immunity being very likely.
There are multiple active outbreaks in crowded factories and other facilities, just like an Amazon fulfillment warehouse. They do not have necessary safety equipment and procedures in place yet. Forcing people to show up to work under these conditions is murder. They could fix it, though.
A starting point would be Amazon providing tests and ensuring that everyone has been tested before returning to work, along with ensuring everyone has masks and gloves and enough time to thoroughly wash their hands throughout their shift. Press reports up until this point and complaints from employees suggest none of that is consistently the case.
https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-priorit...
> Millions of masks have been distributed across our network. They are available to all Amazon associates, delivery service partners, Amazon Flex participants, seasonal employees, and Whole Foods Market stores employees. We are encouraging everyone to take and use them.
As for testing, they have been unable to do it through regular channels so they are building a lab to do it themselves:
> An important safety step might be regular testing of all employees for COVID-19, including those without symptoms. We have begun assembling equipment we need to build our first lab to process tests and hope to start testing small numbers of our frontline employees soon.
As for cleanliness:
> We have increased the frequency and intensity of cleaning at all sites, including regular sanitization of door handles, handrails, touch screens, scanners, and other frequently touched areas.
> Our enhanced cleaning has added almost 200 additional points of contact per site across our janitorial teams, and we’ve increased the size of our cleaning teams threefold to support our buildings.
> We require everyone to wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, especially after using the bathroom and before eating, as well as after blowing their nose, coughing, or sneezing. If soap and water are not readily available, alcohol-based hand sanitizer stations are easily accessible throughout our buildings.
> In addition to break times, employees can log out of their system to wash their hands whenever they choose, without worrying about impact on their performance goals.
Edit: it would seem obvious in retrospect that if most major governments have action plans in case of global pandemic, a global logistics company should have done the same. I would be very surprised if they hadn't, frankly, and my view of Bezos would be lower than it already is if they hadn't because this is really something that should have mattered to him before it was a real situation.
Yes, you can plan to some extent... but these are PEOPLE heavy issues. The only way this would have gone without issue is if it was pretty much ONLY robots, and had 3-4x the number of people needed, skilled and trained to support those robots, and that the robots themselves were under 25% utilization to begin with.
Telling a company they need to spend 4-5X as much for operations, just in case of a once a centuray global pandemic, is pretty unlikely.
Now, if you want to talk about getting domestic sourcing of more products, particularly in infrastructure, defense, medicine and communications/tech, I'm all ears. There's no reason more than half of medicine and telecom/tech equipment should be foreign sourced for a country the size/scale of the US as a matter of defense. With where we're at with China and Iran (effects on Taiwan of particular concern), it's even more amazing there aren't more talks about this.
Moving massive resources in an effort like this is no small feat, and trying to treat it like it's as simple as signing people up to Slack is silly. It's amazing how people think operations like just magically manifest "because".
It's important to understand that U.S. corporate planning for a pandemic has assumed a certain level of urgency and competency from the federal response.
This has been reasonable, as the federal government has for the last 20 years, under both Republican and Democratic administrations, taken potential pandemics very seriously, and responded aggressively to them.
The federal response to the 2019 novel coronavirus has completely failed to live up to these expectations and the result is that everyone is scrambling to catch up. Corporations and states are following their playbooks... but those playbooks were not written in terms of "let's be ready to fill in for the federal government when they fall on their faces." The whole point of the federal government is to be a backstop for everyone else in the face of huge national threats.
This is one reason you're seeing Republican lawmakers be so willing to pump money out of the government: they know the government screwed up the early response, and so it is fair that the government should pay to help mitigate that.
WW91ciBjb21tZW50cyByZWFkIGxpa2UganVzdCBvdXRyYWdlLiBUaGlzIGlzIG9mIGxvdyBpbmZv cm1hdGlvbiB2YWx1ZSB0byBtZS4gVGhpcyBpcyB3aHkgSSB3aWxsIGRvd24tdm90ZSB5b3VyIGNv bW1lbnRzIGluIGZ1dHVyZS4K
Less of an issue, but still worth some thought: Just like paywalled submissions must be by-passable so that we can all share in a conversation equally, base64 threatens to create subthreads that are not equally accessible. (Trivial easy if you are on a laptop, not on mobile).
I've often wondered what a forum would look like where you could make the equivalent of 'aside' comments. The way someone might, while you're speaking, say softly "hyPERbolee, not HYper-bowl" to correct you without interrupting.
Perhaps a good example is StackOverflow's Q&A format w/ comments and chats. You can comment and move to chats but the emphasis is on the important part: the question and the answers.
Allowing voting on these "asides" in StackOverflow permits all of the usual stuff while relegating them to the asides they are.
Of course, in the case of what I used it for, it is generally impolite to offer advice unasked but the nature of slow feedback loops means it's better for me to offer an ignorable piece of thing. i.e. if you think I'm an idiot, I want you to have the power to ignore me. That is only polite to compensate for the brain-hacking strength of having text describe you. You can't ignore it afterwards.
That would either be PMs, or the forum equivalent of posting "sage" on an imageboard (which prevents the post from bumping,) neither of which HN supports.
Although given the forum's focus on quality over quantity, I think some kind of "whisper" mode might be worth looking at, to opt out of having such comments from appear on the new comments page.
0: https://lobste.rs/s/lhijk2/horrifically_dystopian_world_soft...
You can address the other speaker's points without this.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/04/21/enough-enough-l...
Once the vast majority of employees say it's actually fixed I'll give Amazon real credit for it, but it's empty PR until then.
Nobody can be forced to show up, and no, that's not murder.
> A starting point would be...
Amazon has a page listing their pretty thorough adjustments for health & safety: https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/how-amazon-priorit...
No one has suggested that anything here is a 'made up thing', are you creating strawmen?
>However you want to define it, people need to make ends meet including right now.
I'm interested in understanding what the GP's point was. I don't get to definitely choose arbitrary definitions and interpretations for them. The dictionary and accepted usage offers a range of interpretations.
Do you really have a very literal definition of forced? No nuance or anything?
There are multiple levels of forced. It's not an on and off switch, as much as people make it out to be.
Edit: Just because there is a range of accepted meanings for the word 'forced' doesn't mean that all uses of the word 'forced' are correct. Even with the most low key interpretations of the word 'forced', I don't think that this is in any way the correct word for this situation.
Amazon is about as close to the ideal of an "essential employer" as anyone is, though. They're shipping a huge amount of food and other essentials. Objectively, a package delivered through a managed professional environment is less risky and involves fewer potential transmission events than one purchased at retail.
Online sellers, where they have product to deliver, are the ones we want to prioritize keeping open.
Now... there's lots to complain about with Amazon's response in other ways. It's very reasonable to argue that their workers need more PPE, employer-provided testing and notification, hazard pay, better safety practices, etc...
But if you want to argue that Amazon should shut down... who do you want to be open instead?
I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce.
The median wage of an Amazon Warehouse worker is about $60,000 / year, which is above the median wage in the US[1]. The 25th-percentile wage for the same worker is $53,000 — still higher than the median wage, and this is an entry level position that requires no college eduction.
Amazon also provides 401(k) matching for their warehouse workers and provides them the same group health insurance as their software engineers and executives[2][3]. It is quite possibly the most generous set of benefits currently available to an entry-level low-skill worker with no college education.
> I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce.
Couple things: 1) I think you're overestimating how much profit Amazon makes on its retail business; the margins are razor thin. 2) profit is just the cost of labor for the managers, I.e. the people that are coordinating the labor and calling the high-level shots. This includes coming up with the policies and systems to ensure the company can continue to operate in the midst of a global pandemic.
Finally, Amazon employed 798,000 people as of 2019, and added 100,000 new jobs in the last month alone, with 50,000 current openings outstanding. A lot of the margin goes into literally providing all of these wages and benefits for nearly 1 million people. This is more than many industrialized nations.
[1] https://www.paysa.com/salaries/amazon--warehouse-worker
[2] https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment/working-here/...
[3] https://www.glassdoor.com/Benefits/Amazon-US-Benefits-EI_IE6...
As someone who works in the industry I do agree however that they do an okay job taking care of their people compared to others. But nobody is going to write an article about how shit it is to work at a warehouse owned by a company no one has ever heard of. Amazon has actually done a lot for people at those places too though, if there is an amazon warehouse nearby starting at $15 an hour nobody is going to come work for you for barely above minimum wage anymore, it has definitely put some out competitive wage pressure.
Terribly naive to include that point in the argument.
"Essential employees" shouldn't be put at risk just because people need them to ship stuff out. We shouldn't put "essential employees"' immune-compromised relatives at risk either.
But... isn't that what "essential" means? No one claims this is fair. It's not fair that as software developers we get an automatic pass to continue our careers working from home while our bartender friends have to file for unemployment either.
But at the end of the day we need stuff to live. Someone needs to run the power and intenet and water infrastructure. And someone needs to deliver goods to people who need them.
I mean: I agree we need to make this better for those folks. I just don't see how Amazon demanding essential workers come to work is the wrong thing here.
Amazon can't win.
If they did that, the newspaper headlines would read "Bezos demands DNA samples of workers as a prerequisite to being paid."
Right now, I'm much more concerned that we're on the brink of war with China and Iran... partly because China sees us as weakened over COVID, I'm not sure on Iran's motivations right now either... With how much of our tech comes from taiwan, it's really concerning... this could literally set the world back a decade for a decade.
Oh no! He said something not negative about Trump... downvote now!
Correct, because SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus and contains no DNA. But the test does work by detecting the viral RNA and it is hard to find the specific stuff (reagents) to perform the test and that's a big reason why we're all sheltering in place without a proper nationwide testing regime.
> It's in everyone's best interest for Amazon to offer paid leave until their workplaces have been proven to be safe, which is going to take a bit even after all the appropriate measures are in place.
Amazon appears to think that your "until" condition is here now, per the safety measures they purport to be taking.
There is no vaccine coming for a year, maybe two, maybe never. "Flattening the curve" is ONLY a delaying strategy to not swamp the health-care system and hope that some treatments are developed (no guarantees there either). COVID is going to be part of our lives.
Are you saying we should shelter in place forever?
>A starting point would be Amazon providing tests
What tests? Are you expecting every employer to test their workers every day?
>along with ensuring everyone has masks and gloves and enough time to thoroughly wash their hands throughout their shift.
That's reasonable. Masks + social distancing + gloves, and policies for hand washing and disinfecting of commonly used surfaces. I suspect Amazon isn't too far from that, and if they are it's only because of the global PPE shortage.
In the past all of what I mention has been a problem in warehouses, and it's why employees are protesting. Amazon can fix this, but it's been a problem very recently.
It's super reasonable if they can't gather up a bunch of N95s and medical grade gloves, but paper surgical masks or cloth masks should be feasible by now. It sounds like they're working on their own testing infrastructure, which is great.