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Re:The Decline of Usability by red_admiral on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:28PM (#22902147)
It's not only that every app has a different style these days, but some of them change their style or add new features via auto-update every few weeks. Even office 365 (desktop version) does this.

It's not just a usability nightmare, it's an accessibility one too (although the two go hand in hand most of the time). Imagine teaching some elderly neighbour how to write a word document, and after weeks of practice they get it into their muscle memory that the thing they want a lot is the 5th button from the left ... then microsoft adds another one in the next update so it's now the 6th.

This would be one place where free software could really shine - you could convert a lot of people with "every application works the same, and we promise we won't change the UI more than once every two years unless we really have to.

Re:The Decline of Usability by wwweston on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:51PM (#22902359)
If you think resume-driven development is bad for developers (and it is), consider the career incentives for UI and product people. If there's a "maintain" incentive, I'm not sure what it is. "Didn't change anything about functional and satisfactory interfaces" may be a real value-add in some cases, but it's not a sizzling narrative for selling yourself on the job market.
Re:The Decline of Usability by dredmorbius on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:28PM (#22903971)
With apologies to Warren G. Bennis:

The UI/UX department of the future will have only two employees, a hipster and a dog. The hipster will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to bite the hipster if they change the UI/UX.

Re:The Decline of Usability by glangdale on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:44PM (#22904052)
I think this reads better if the dog's job is "to bite the hipster if they change the UI/UX", but yes.
Re:The Decline of Usability by dredmorbius on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:50PM (#22904093)
Suggestion accepted! Changed!

(Bite me.)

Re:The Decline of Usability by boring_twenties on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:47PM (#22905167)
Sorry but now I must know what the original version was!
Re:The Decline of Usability by dredmorbius on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:42AM (#22905608)
Closer to Bennis's original: "The dog will be there to keep the hipster from touching the UI/UX".
Re:The Decline of Usability by ilamont on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:06PM (#22903408)
I think a lot of companies have too many designers with not much to do. Google has a team of people responsible for changing up the art or making whimsical games on the home page every day.

I also read 10 years ago that Amazon hired a big name to take over design for the shopping portal and Bezos wouldn't let this person do much of anything.

Re:The Decline of Usability by twistedpair on Sunday April 19, 2020 @09:03AM (#22915626)
Too true. As an Amazon user for 22 years now, I was amazed by the greater than decade run some of their pages had with the UX appearing nearly unchanged (e.g. login flow).
Re:The Decline of Usability by Ididntdothis on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:11PM (#22903005)
Very true. Most people get measured by how much churn they create. The more the better. Even if it’s 100% correct for the business you are digging your own grave if you leave things the way they are.
Re:The Decline of Usability by MattGaiser on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:49PM (#22904936)
I met these two mobile devs at a conference.

They survived several rounds of cost-cutting at a large company by constantly convincing management to let them rewrite their mobile app in some new framework because of X.

Start out with the native implementations, then they did Xamarin, tried PhoneGap, went back to native, then to React Native, and now on to Flutter. The pair of them keep their jobs constantly rewriting an app.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Moru on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:37AM (#22906010)
Now and then frameworks does backwards incompatible changes so you might as well rewrite the app. If you continue with the old version of the framework you are stuck with either security holes, bugs or that google and apple changes something that downprioritize your app into oblivion.

And if the UI/UX does not significantly change every 6 months, your users will give you one star reviews and "Old looking and ugly" comments. I don't envy app developers.

Re:The Decline of Usability by ativzzz on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:54PM (#22909014)
Yea if a framework makes breaking changes to the point where you can't upgrade your app, that seems like it could be a recurring problem so after the first rewrite you might as well learn native code and write it there.
Re:The Decline of Usability by disqard on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:45PM (#22909506)
This is a lesson that consistently gets lost in the salivation over the latest SPA framework sexiness.
Re:The Decline of Usability by ativzzz on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:53PM (#22911025)
Disagreed, the vast majority of business problems with tech are solved with some form of CRUD which frameworks are perfect for. If your framework all of a sudden doesn't support your business needs either you didn't plan ahead well or your business simply outgrew it, which can happen once a business becomes complex enough.
Re:The Decline of Usability by MattGaiser on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:46PM (#22910527)
Virtually nobody in software is incentivized to look at long term software costs. Startups need to move fast, project managers move on, devs need to keep their skills up to date to keep flipping jobs, and managers would need to become technical.
Re:The Decline of Usability by userbinator on Saturday April 18, 2020 @02:02AM (#22905666)
Most, not all; if you have the right skills, you can find a comfortable job maintaining legacy code and (actually) improving it. Then again, most developers seem more interested in chasing new and shiny rather than polishing a stable system.
Re:The Decline of Usability by Ididntdothis on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:40PM (#22909446)
" comfortable job maintaining legacy code "

That's a very dangerous career path though. If that legacy system gets replaced you are usually out of a job and job search is hard with outdated skills.

Re:The Decline of Usability by userbinator on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:03PM (#22910648)
To give you an idea of how reluctant they are to replace things, some equipment in the manufacturing industry is over a century old and still in continuous use. They will certainly be extremely unwilling to get on the "upgrade treadmill" that seems to be getting faster these days.

Also, problem solving and creative thinking are never outdated skills. ;-)

Re:The Decline of Usability by InnerGargoyle on Saturday April 18, 2020 @10:39AM (#22908065)
guide me brother how to get into this?
Re:The Decline of Usability by ativzzz on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:54PM (#22909018)
Apply to big non tech companies who probably run on older tech
Re:The Decline of Usability by zipwitch on Saturday April 18, 2020 @09:31AM (#22907575)
This comment needs more upvotes. It's endemic to the software industry and far beyond. From employees who need to meet some arbitrary (and possibly unwritten) metric, to executives who are compelled to leave their mark on anything they touch, the number of people-years we waste on unnecessary churn has got to be staggering.
Re:The Decline of Usability by agumonkey on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:42PM (#22902291)
I think we're in a strange bubble. Rapid iteration was a potential source of improvements (never going wrong since you can always adjust next week vs potential big fail every N years) and that it would yield better understanding of users by throwing every possible solutions at them.

It will have to pop and rebalance itself because it leads to fatigue and false sense of progress.

Re:The Decline of Usability by ardy42 on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:01PM (#22902944)
> Rapid iteration was a potential source of improvements (never going wrong since you can always adjust next week vs potential big fail every N years) and that it would yield better understanding of users by throwing every possible solutions at them.

> It will have to pop and rebalance itself because it leads to fatigue and false sense of progress.

Totally agree, it's ended up turning into a stream of pointless side-grades and regressions, forever.

Progress come from thoughtfulness, vision, and luck. You can't replace any of that with A-B testing and little experiments.

Re:The Decline of Usability by agumonkey on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:30PM (#22903163)
It's doubly odd because as many (I suppose) I firmly believed that faster pace and smaller changes would lead to global improvements (same goes for ajax web..).

I think we just blew some social limit. People prefer stability, stability allows for more complex but riskier constructions, society enjoys the working ones even better. I like the notion of seasonality these days.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Jtsummers on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:32PM (#22904597)
> It's doubly odd because as many (I suppose) I firmly believed that faster pace and smaller changes would lead to global improvements (same goes for ajax web..).

A late response, but a response none the less.

Faster response time and changes can result in global improvements, but they don't ensure it unless they consider global implications. See also: normalization of deviance [0]. It's very easy to make small changes based only on local considerations. These can, individually or in aggregate, produce a globally worse system.

A non-programming example, but I think illustrative:

A friend works in aircraft maintenance as an engineer. They use an adhesive to apply patches to aircraft versus bolts and other joining mechanisms (it's less harmful, longterm, to the airframe and less disruptive to the operation of the aircraft being lightweight and not intruding into the airflow). When the aircraft come in for maintenance the worker is supposed to use a disposable plastic tool and some chemicals to remove the adhesive, it is a slow tedious process. So, naturally, the worker makes a local change to improve their flow: a metal tool that quickly scrapes off the old adhesive. Job done, they move on.

The decision was made only with local consideration, but the consequence was an extra 2-4 weeks of maintenance on every aircraft this happened to. Why? The metal-on-metal scraping resulted in damage to the aircraft that required repair.

Unless you're making changes with the whole system in mind, the consequences can go either way with regard to the global optimum, while moving towards a local optimum.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance

Re:The Decline of Usability by agumonkey on Saturday April 18, 2020 @09:43AM (#22907657)
Thanks, once again, lots to learn from other industries "issues" :)
Re:The Decline of Usability by MattGaiser on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:03PM (#22905006)
> faster pace and smaller changes would lead to global improvements

They need to account for how that changes behavior.

It is like Agile development. Sure, adaptability is good. But it has led non-technicals to treat change as free so they now feel ok writing specs on the fly in meetings, creating half baked tickets, or changing a button's color every 5 minutes. By making change seemingly cheap, demand for it soared.

Smaller changes at a faster pace mean that no thought is being put into them and they are probably being viewed by fewer people before being deployed. In large companies that have a lot of people, that can easily mean that one developer has no idea what others are doing.

It also requires that meaningful feedback be received about them. A friend of mine has a startup and they are endlessly making small tweaks to where things are located. They aren't checking in any meaningful way how that is changing things but rather just guessing based on weekly user numbers.

Re:The Decline of Usability by ulisesrmzroche on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:35AM (#22906471)
Bull. Smaller changes at a rapid pace allows for feedback. Meaningful feedback, since you get to see and play with the feature. It’s easier to know what you want once it’s concrete.

If you’re deploying continuously to a QA server, there is be no way halfass features get out in prod.

Also, no developer needs to know what everyone is doing, and is impossible to ask for it, since people need space in their head for real life problems and responsabilities, not keep track of the minutia of their peers day to day

Re:The Decline of Usability by ulisesrmzroche on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:27AM (#22906424)
Are y’all deploying broken shit to prod? Why would the app be unstable?
Re:The Decline of Usability by buckminster on Saturday April 18, 2020 @10:49AM (#22908125)
I think they mean UI stability, not reliability.
Re:The Decline of Usability by golergka on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:44PM (#22904366)
Rapid iteration as a potential source of improvements is great for startups and new things in general. Word, which you teach your grandma, is NOT a startup. Startup needs to change fast or it will die, and they depend on early adopters who want something new. Word needs to think about it's huge audience that doesn't want anything to change. Remember ribbon redesign and pushback it received?

These two types of products need completely different approaches to product development. But also, don't teach your grandma Notion - Word's a much sensible option for her.

Re:The Decline of Usability by btrettel on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:03PM (#22902453)
> This would be one place where free software could really shine - you could convert a lot of people with "every application works the same, and we promise we won't change the UI more than once every two years unless we really have to.

This is one reason I use Xfce. My brother once told me that my computer has looked basically the same since I used Gnome 2, and he's right.

I'm not entirely immune. After switching fully to GTK 3 it took me a while to find a decent style that had scroll bars or not terrible scrollbars. The one I'm using right now (ClassicLooks) has a few issues (e.g., I can't tab through GUIs because it won't highlight the active option), but overall is acceptable. I'll fix the highlighting issue eventually...

Re:The Decline of Usability by anthk on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:15PM (#22904800)
Re:The Decline of Usability by userbinator on Saturday April 18, 2020 @02:43AM (#22905817)
Every time I see a screenshot of someone theming Linux to look like Windows, the most obvious thing that stands out as not being quite right is the font rendering. Even when using Microsoft's own TTFs, the font renderers that Linux use seem to put the pixels in a slightly different place than the MS one.

Other differences I could see from the screenshots: the comboboxes have the dropdown arrow next to instead of inside the edit control, the table headers should have a thick left and top border too, the up/down control's buttons should also have a 3D border, the scrollbar buttons shouldn't become disabled even at the end of travel, and non-top-mounted tabs have their shadow in the wrong direction and side tabs should have text rotated accordingly. I've used this UI for over two decades so it's pretty easy to see when something doesn't look quite right.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Moru on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:54AM (#22906067)
If the font is not a pixel font, it will render differently depending on your settings and the choices of the rendering engine. Subpixel rendering for the different LCD-screens, aliasing for the pixels to look smooth on low res screens, hinting for those small details to be visible in vector fonts.

Vector fonts are made of lines that can sometimes be smaller than a pixel wide. Font engines solves this in different ways. It both depend on the quality of the font and the settings of the engine. (I'm no font expert though so names might be off. But I have been playing on and off with pixel fonts and vector graphics since 30 years)

Re:The Decline of Usability by LargoLasskhyfv on Sunday April 19, 2020 @06:24PM (#22919294)
This is for XFCE, which has one of the simplest tools for setting the font rendering right, with instant visual feedback. At least when i used it. Even in multimonitor setups with different resolutions/orientations.
Re:The Decline of Usability by anthk on Saturday April 18, 2020 @10:13AM (#22907859)
Yeah, I began with DOS and later W98 back in the day, but at least Chicago95 is far better than most of the GTK2/3 or QT5 themes. You can always fix the CSS yourself or submit an issue on GitHub.
Re:The Decline of Usability by giantrobot on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:22PM (#22908739)
This makes me soooo happy. Now if I can just find a GNOME 1.0 total conversion. For whatever reason I always liked my 48px tall Panel and the hodgepodge of icon styles. I've managed to get XFCE's panel sort of looking like GNOME 1 but it doesn't quite behave the same.
Re:The Decline of Usability by newsbinator on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:37PM (#22902736)
> the thing they want a lot is the 5th button from the left

I agree it's normal and expected that people get used to buttons being in certain places, and moving them around too often is bad usability.

That said, the fact some of my elderly relatives use and understand technology this way, by memorizing how many centimeters from the edge of the screen they should look for a button, makes life needlessly tough for them.

They'd be better off understanding what a button is conceptually, what forms it comes in (e.g. standard button vs. underlined link with no outline, etc), and how buttons might be grouped.

I know it's a lot to ask of elderly users, but it pays dividends.

After many years of Q&A with me, my mom understands her iPad conceptually and as a result gets much more from it than my aunt does, who only understands procedurally that if she presses her finger on 'the button in the corner' then 'x' should happen.

If there is no button in the corner, my aunt is lost.

Re:The Decline of Usability by int_19h on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:11PM (#22904499)
I've had the exact opposite experience with my mom - it took some time to explain things like icons, menus, toolbars, and context menus to her (in Windows) - but once she did, she felt empowered, because it all worked the same in every app. In many cases, this meant that she'd find a more tedious way to perform some task - e.g. using the main menu where a toolbar had the same action exposed more directly - but it was far more important for her to be confident that she could find it.

Then I got her an iPad - the very first one, back when they were released. She absolutely loves the form factor, but hates the UI, and finds it inconsistent, having to learn every app on its own. You could say that this is partly because of having to re-learn - except that it's been several years of nearly exclusively using iPad and iPhone for all her needs, and she still finds it terribly inconsistent.

Re:The Decline of Usability by jimmaswell on Friday April 17, 2020 @04:43PM (#22902782)
Alas too many people are either incapable of this kind of ubderstanding or it would take even longer than just giving them directions every time something changes.
Re:The Decline of Usability by Jtsummers on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:24PM (#22903114)
The way people react to computers is similar to how many react to math.

A lot of capable people are mathphobic, and it's strange to watch (as someone who took naturally to math). The expressions on the page (or the attempt to produce those expressions from a model in their mind) causes them to seize up. It's like watching an anxiety attack happen. Something about math (the subject, their experience when taking the courses, whatever) has left them with a severe discomfort or level of fear when dealing with it.

Computers illicit the same response from many people, regardless of background, education, level of experience with computers. They develop an understanding by rote, or with a rudimentary (but likely totally wrong) mental model. As soon as something is slightly different, the fear or discomfort rises and their mind blanks. They cannot figure out the next step. At an extreme, a color changes and they think it must mean something, but really it's just that that control is now "transparent" (pulling in the background color but blurred) and they happen to have a bright red object behind it, when normally it's a more neutral gray or blue. For some it's that things are no longer in the right place or that display differently (think of the changes in the Windows start menu over the decades). They'll have different thresholds, but once they hit theirs they cannot proceed without great difficulty.

Re:The Decline of Usability by msla on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:43AM (#22905375)
We definitely should see if we can develop math teaching which doesn't elicit that response, because it has to be learned. Humans aren't evolved to be good at arithmetic or symbolic thinking, but we're not evolved to be morbidly afraid of it, either.

Of course, any attempt to improve math education gets screamed at ("New Math! Common Core! Blah!") and the whole thing just becomes political.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Moru on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:01AM (#22906097)
I think we just have to accept that we all are different. Some have it easy, other don't. This comes doubly with all subjects that we are not trained for or not interested in. It might take a lot more to learn or a teacher that understands the problem and can guide around it. Only the individual can say if the added time and effort is worth it. This insight can take many years though, it's hard to get a teenager to believe they will ever need math (or whatever other subject) in their life.
Re:The Decline of Usability by red_admiral on Saturday April 18, 2020 @08:05AM (#22907140)
Part of the problem is cultural - it's socially acceptable to "not be a mathsy person" in many circles, and almost a badge of honour in some.

Another problem is that the discovery learning approach can lead to some horrible failure modes for math. I've seen cases where an hour of proper instruction can go further than a whole term of trying to see if they can find it out for themselves. Case in point: the rule of three. If 10 apples cost $20, then 5 apples cost ___? You can spend ages thinking about what it "means", or you can learn that you write down a 2x2 table, multiply across the diagonal and divide by the number in the corner.

Re:The Decline of Usability by jimmaswell on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:40AM (#22906252)
Commom core seems just fine overall to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the generation that grows up with it has much better math comprehension and number sense.
Re:The Decline of Usability by smichel17 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @07:46AM (#22907046)
This is a key insight. It's why I hate when we refer to "non-technical people" -- I don't believe possessing the technical skills is a meaningful differentiator in users. The more important categories are those you mention; the non-fearers will eventually figure out a solution, becoming technical along the way if required. The fearful stop trying to do that.
Re:The Decline of Usability by leetcrew on Saturday April 18, 2020 @11:03AM (#22908206)
it seems like most people can get pretty good at discrete or fuzzy (for lack of a better word) types of reasoning, but rarely both. I'm not sure if it's just avoidant behavior, relying on whichever mode developed faster to the exclusion of the other, or something more innate.

given enough time to read and debug, I suspect I could eventually figure out how any piece of code worked. but if you give me a book and ask me to pick a good topic for an essay, I might not finish before the end of time.

Re:The Decline of Usability by saagarjha on Friday April 17, 2020 @03:31PM (#22902191)
Sometimes they'll change their style every time you go to them! Aggressive A/B testing is truly awful.
Re:The Decline of Usability by jwing on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:14PM (#22903035)
“The electric light did not come from the continuous improvement of candles.” - Oren Harari
Re:The Decline of Usability by Ididntdothis on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:09PM (#22902995)
“the 5th button from the left”

Exactly. That’s how I work in applications I use a lot. I don’t look much at the symbol and certainly not at the text. Same for buttons. It’s highly confusing when they shift icons around. Office 365 has become pretty bad that way. Every two months something gets shifted around. No new functionality. Just change for change’s sake.

Re:The Decline of Usability by zozbot234 on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:44PM (#22903680)
> and we promise we won't change the UI more than once every two years unless we really have to

You get that for free by running a stable/LTS distribution.