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Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by jl6 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:10PM (#22560576)
Can’t help but feel the coronavirus lockdowns are a good trial run for a low carbon world: limited travel, local food and entertainment, less consumption of non-essentials.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by svara on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:24PM (#22560722)
It's also a great demonstration that it's really hard to get people to believe that something they can't see is real.

Coronavirus cases have been growing stably and predictably for weeks. Epidemiologists (and not only they) saw it coming. No panic would have been necessary if calm, decisive action had been taken early on. But somehow the panic seems to be necessary. Normalcy bias is real.

These past weeks have been really instructive about collective human behavior, and have me really worried about our ability as a species to address climate change.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by avip on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:34PM (#22560831)
Otoh you see collaborations s.a China sending medical aid to Italy, which makes me feel maybe we do deserve to survive after all.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by shoo on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:45PM (#22560955)
We're still only demonstrating ability to react to a sudden media-worthy crisis that is putting people (including decision makers) at a very minor risk of death in the very short term.

For climate change, we need to demonstrate the ability to proactively avoid a creeping catastrophe that will occur in the medium-long term, where the harm may not happen to current decision makers, but will instead happen to other people who don't get a vote in the decision today, and isn't media worthy since nothing is really changing ("outlook remains bleak").

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by whatshisface on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:41PM (#22560912)
To someone who can understand abstract concepts like "the future," the behavior of world leaders can seem terrifyingly callous, irresponsible, incompetent and maybe even malicious. However when the nasty package shows up on their doorsteps, they can function normally, at least if they're part of a functioning society.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by manfredo on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:49PM (#22561577)
Don't confuse disagreement on the severity of its consequences with disbelief in the phenomenon itself. For the coronavirus, it's an infection with a mortality rate ~20x higher[1] than the flu concentrated among people older than working age. If we want to reduce as much loss of life as possible then yeah we should shut down the country. But it doesn't present a threat to the long term success of society (heck, a cynic might even point out that retirees dying in greater numbers will make social security more affordable), and so many do conclude that decisive action is unwarranted.

1. The most in-depth writeup I've found reports a fatality rate of ~5x higher after more widespread testing: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/03/12/how-dead...

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by svara on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:39PM (#22562079)
The view you are suggesting works, in the sense that it is logically consistent.

However, I very much doubt that this is the calculation that went through very many people's heads, say, 3 weeks ago.

I think proof of this is that in all places that have substantial outbreaks, containment measures are getting heavier and heavier with increasing numbers of cases. If that's what you were going to do anyway, then the sum cost (in money, time, human effort) would have been lower if you had started earlier. This is because exponential growth with a factor of 1.33 is still manageable if you have 10 cases, but turns into an overwhelming tsunami if you have 10000.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by hn_throwaway_99 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:49PM (#22560994)
> No panic would have been necessary if calm, decisive action had been taken early on.

I disagree. Shutting down major portions of the economy, and the resultant economic damage, would have been quite severe regardless of when it was implemented. Not saying there wouldn't have been less panic, but broad quarantines would have caused a lot of panic in any case.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by lukifer on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:33PM (#22561418)
What's more insidious: if we had acted drastically to prevent pandemic, no one would have felt any sting, and it might reduce the motivation to take drastic action the next time.

I listened to Richard Mueller's "Physics for Future Presidents" podcast course, and he presents an interesting conundrum: say you're the mayor of a small town, and a seismologist approaches you with a report of a 15% chance of a devastating earthquake next Tuesday, recommending a citywide evacuation. Being a responsible mayor, you do so, despite the cost and displeasure of your constituents. On Tuesday, no earthquake occurs, and the town repopulates. This happens ten more times over several years, and still no earthquakes (after all, each occurrence is only a 15% chance). Sure enough, another Tuesday, another 15% prediction, and citizens are getting frustrated. As the mayor: do you order another evacuation, especially if it's costing you significant resources and political capital? How can you tell the difference between getting lucky on the numbers, and a bad seismologist? Even if the data is accurate, how do you not succumb to the temptation to play the odds?

If there's any silver lining to our failure to prevent the pandemic, it's that maybe we'll take the problem more seriously on the next pandemic, perhaps one with a much higher fatality rate.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by lukifer on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:22PM (#22561324)
I don't disagree, but to play devil's advocate: the problem with "trust the experts, despite contradiction of everyday experience", is that it opens a massive attack vector for moral hazard / perverse incentives, for those who seek to profit or gain power from leveraging expertise (whether real or perceived). History is replete with data points where the experts were wrong (bloodletting) or dishonest (Iraq invasion). Laypeople are stuck with a "trust your mechanic" problem, of not having the knowledge to assess which experts are trustworthy.

It's easy to mock anti-vaxxers, climate denialists, et al; while an honest inquiry leaves room for nuance, those issues seem to have definitive answers, where reality correlates closely with the so-called consensus. But at the same time, the knee-jerk anti-science reactions should be viewed through a lens of general declining social trust in institutions. Even though those particular issues may be the wrong fields of combat, there's a subconscious sense in which everyday people feel lied to for decades by "experts". Now we're stuck in a boy-who-cried-wolf situation, where the actual experts who are honest brokers and have their shit together aren't being taken seriously. Trust is hard-won and easily lost, and there are massive downstream effects to corruption in truth-finding/sense-making institutions.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by svara on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:46PM (#22561554)
You make a great point. Now how do we fix it?

To your 15% chance of disaster example from your other comment: I think what you need is a population where a large fraction of people understand where those 15% come from.

Edit: I also want to point out that I didn't find your examples that convincing. Bloodletting was a seriously long time ago, and is unlikely to affect anyone today. Iraq was a purely political issue, and didn't have a scientific angle.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by pera on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:14PM (#22560615)
I was going to mention the ridiculous situation with ghost flights, but it seems authorities are temporarily suspending this rule:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90476154/airlines-will-stop-coro...

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by swebs on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:16PM (#22560642)
It cut China's emissions by 25% and will probably do the same to the rest of the world.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/coronavirus-china-...

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by deerIRL on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:12PM (#22560596)
It will be really interesting to see how much of an affect on Global Warming this Pandemic has had.

I'm hoping if we can learn any lessons from this, it is better pandemic planning and larger companies finally seeing the benefit of remote work.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by usaar333 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:17PM (#22560652)
Minimal. At best, we might be pushing the timeline out by a few months.

Remote work isn't even necessarily carbon positive. In hot or cold weather, transit emissions savings may be more than offset by increased HVAC usage at home.

[Though avoiding business flying is probably a clear positive]

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by shadowgovt on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:27PM (#22560749)
> increased HVAC usage at home

At least to a thumbnail sketch, back-of-the-napkin calculation, I'd guess not. Most American homes don't have smart thermostats and people just leave their system set to "comfortable" all day long, whether or not the home is occupied.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by JohnFen on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:20PM (#22561302)
Also, there are large swaths of the US where air conditioners are not common.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by wott on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:33PM (#22560819)
> In hot or cold weather, transit emissions savings may be more than offset by increased HVAC usage at home.

Most people keep on heating/cooling their home while they are at their office; sometimes to a lesser power, sometimes the same all the time. Office which is also heated/cooled (and had to be built one day, often terribly). So with a regular job, your home emits, your office emits at the same time, and the transportation between those emits too (and had to be built).

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by rjsw on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:28PM (#22560767)
AC at home is rare in Europe.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by fullstop on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:41PM (#22560908)
Most of Europe has both lower temperatures and humidity when compared to the United States.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by _Microft on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:47PM (#22560977)
Let's hope it stays like this. I'm dreading summer already as the last one had temperatures reaching 40°C here in Europe.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by manfredo on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:15PM (#22561819)
Flying accounts for ~3% of carbon emissions, of which business flying is another subset.

The aggregate reduction in economic activity is significant though. Oil prices are halved from their pre-outbreak levels.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by deerIRL on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:20PM (#22560682)
Oh for sure, I don't expect it to have any significant impact.

Interesting point regarding HVAC usage, I am curious to see the density required for it to become a net positive.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by gambiting on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:45PM (#22560954)
Remember that any improvement in our emissions will temporarily make the situation worse because of the Aerosol Masking effect.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by paxys on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:16PM (#22560639)
In the very short term, probably, but things are going to back to normal (or even worse) soon. Major companies have already said that the virus is going to cause them to miss their targets for carbon reduction.

For it to be a valid trial run, emissions have to be reduced while the world is running as normal.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by nixpulvis on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:24PM (#22560725)
I recall reading something about how stopping emissions outright would have a pretty dramatic adverse effect on global temperatures, because while the greenhouse effect is of course real, the emissions also act as reflection for incoming solar energy. This makes me wonder if we can fix this problem without real innovation, not just global production collapse (which is bad for other reasons, obviously).

If anyone can remind me about what I'm thinking of here, that would be awesome... or prove me wrong.

I'm by no means saying we shouldn't be planning and building more sustainable solutions (both policy and products), since that's EXACTLY what we need to be doing. I'm just also saying that to make this all work, I think we need to do more.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by cosmic_shame on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:27PM (#22560750)
It's called the aerosol masking effect, and it's terrifying.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by gscott on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:31PM (#22560797)
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by throwaway5752 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:50PM (#22561002)
It's not even a little scary compared to continued CO2 emission trends.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by SamBam on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:29PM (#22560772)
I'd be interested in reading more. It seems counter-intuitive -- the emissions that are already in the atmosphere would still be doing any reflection that they are currently doing.

And whatever shielding they're doing, the net effect of every ton of CO2 is in the direction of more warming.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by nixpulvis on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:37PM (#22560872)
My understanding is that, while you are correct that these emissions are already in the air, they filter themselves out over time, so it's about rates of production vs rates of dismission (for lack of a better word). If we stop all emissions today, the sky will quite literally start clearing up, and thus warming the Earth even more.

Not trying to be too sensationalist, but I believe this is the truth.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by sp332 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:36PM (#22560846)
They're on different timescales. The aerosols will come out of the atmosphere relatively quickly, causing rapid warming.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by nixpulvis on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:42PM (#22560934)
Here's the original article I was recalling: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6427/eaav0566/tab...
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by lutorm on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:48PM (#22560985)
The IPCC working group 1 summary talks about the physical effects, that's a pretty good primary source if you want a lot of detail and tons of references to trace down.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by twblalock on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:21PM (#22560690)
I think civil unrest, like what happened when the French government raised fuel taxes, is the most likely outcome of a low carbon world.

People are willing to suffer short-term privations, especially when they are afraid of getting the coronavirus. People are not willing to suffer for years to reduce their carbon footprints.

It's also notable that the burdens of reducing carbon emissions fall disproportionately on the poor. The fuel taxes in France are a perfect example.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by shadowgovt on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:25PM (#22560727)
I hate to be the bearer of bad hot takes, but the burdens falling disproportionately on the poor is not a reason to avoid catastrophic global collapse.

Even though it's unfair, if the choice is "the burdens fall on the poor" and "the burdens fall on everyone (including the poor, who will be hit harder because they have fewer resources in reserve to survive unplanned catastrophe)", the first option is better.

(... it's also a false forced choice; there are other options. But the question of poverty runs somewhat separate to the question of saving humanity from climate change).

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by twblalock on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:29PM (#22560781)
> I hate to be the bearer of bad hot takes, but the burdens falling disproportionately on the poor is not a reason to avoid catastrophic global collapse.

It is if there will be civil unrest, leading to the election of reactionary populist governments which roll back emission cuts.

Approaches to the problem that enrage a large portion of the citizenry are counterproductive. They won't work in a democracy, and most of the large polluters are democracies.

The French people are generally considered to be pretty left-wing (at least by outsiders) but they took to the streets as soon as the government raised fuel prices. Imagine how well that kind of policy would go down in Texas.

Poverty is therefore directly related to the question of solving climate change.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by mntmoss on Thursday March 12, 2020 @06:35PM (#22562661)
Marketing will solve this aspect of the challenge. Poverty is a relative state, not an absolute one: We want more because our betters have more. The negative associated personal outcomes of poverty are not a corrollary of insufficient carbon emission.

Therefore, market to the people climate-friendly lifestyles. Show celebrities doing their part. Make it easy to pick the right option by default with purchases. Encourage more local events and travel. It has been demonstrated that people respond to good storytelling and I don't think that is going to change.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by manfredo on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:18PM (#22561844)
> People are willing to suffer short-term privations, especially when they are afraid of getting the coronavirus. People are not willing to suffer for years to reduce their carbon footprints.

The French suffered higher overhead energy costs to make their electricity production >70% nuclear. The difference is that this long term suffering is much less severe than short-term suffering.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by fathead_glacier on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:28PM (#22560761)
One of my lecturers once gave an anecdotal reductio ad absurdum argument of why it is difficult to reduce our carbon footprint: people are not willing to walk from the UK to France for a piece of cheese when they can just drive a few minutes to the store.

It is a difficult problem to solve for a reason.

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by _Microft on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:44PM (#22560942)
Transportation makes up 10% of the carbon impact of food at most if I remember correctly. The choice of what one eats is a lot more important. Here are articles you might be interested in?

https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat

Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by ttul on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:13PM (#22560606)
The pandemic will briefly stop the growth of carbon emissions, just like the global financial crisis did.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by est31 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:20PM (#22560676)
The list of similarities is long. Coronavirus is also a global threat facing all of humanity. Similar to climate change deniers, there is tons of misinformation on the question in the internet. The poorest will suffer most in both instances.
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by buboard on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:36PM (#22560856)
I hope it has long term effects. Tons of companies are trying remote work for the first time, hopefully some of it will stick. Commute emissions are like 8% of total
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by baxtr on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:48PM (#22560982)
Jap. But not only local entertainment. Netflix et al too
Re:Planet is 'way off track' in dealing with climate change,... by agumonkey on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:34PM (#22560832)
also:

- relocalization of industries

- more budget for health