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Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by raphaelj on Sunday February 16, 2020 @12:19PM (#22342540)
As a French native speaker, I'm a little bit surprised by the corrected text OP posted in her/his article (http://www.runwes.com/images/learningfrench/image1.png).

Most of the corrections she/he received are not justified at all. Like using the work "crédits" is totally fine in this context. I can't get why they corrected some connectors like "à" or "pour", as the usage of these in the text seem at least as correct to me.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by bdg on Sunday February 16, 2020 @12:48PM (#22342742)
It's a typical side-effect of writing anything online. I've had this experience with nearly everything I've ever posted (also: a lot of great comments too). Whenever you want to share knowledge about X: out of the woodwork crawl out the little pests who have nothing to do except hold you to the highest level of scrutiny they can imagine, and they'll word it like they want to crucify you for the slightest infraction.

It doesn't mean anything except that there's a lot of people who are situationally deficit of social skills and anxiously trying to prove they're even smarter than the original poster.

My pet theory is that these jeklers want acceptance and a sense of community, but don't know how to do it.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by swimfar on Sunday February 16, 2020 @01:13PM (#22342888)
I don't usually point out mistakes in non-native speakers' writing because I know most people will perceive it the way that you do. However, I always wish that people would correct me when I make a mistake in a foreign language. So part of me always wants to point things out to help people like me.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:22PM (#22343544)
Like most complex interactions in life, it really comes down to just feeling when the time's more appropriate. Sometimes people explicitly ask you to correct what they just said ("was that right?"), sometimes they halt in the middle of a sentence and look at you expectantly so you just finish/reword it for them, etc. But generally speaking you shouldn't try to correct people too much unless it really impedes proper understanding, it can really undermine people's confidence in their speaking ability even when they are otherwise fluent. And when you do correct them, only do so with respect to grammar or improper choice of words; correcting pronunciation can be a minefield given how it can change widely within a native population, what with accents and suchlike. (Some people, especially in such a centralized language featuring very normative institutions, will argue that they don't have an accent and everyone else does, but they're wrong.) It should only be corrected when it would otherwise lead to misunderstandings.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by rmwaite on Sunday February 16, 2020 @06:31PM (#22344396)
I don’t fundamentally disagree - but there is another way to look at it. Sometimes someone spends a huge amount of time learning something as deeply as possible, and they can be genuinely excited to share that knowledge. It’s hard to find a situation that isn’t stigmatized so the choice is to never try to share this knowledge (disappointing) or just decide to power through it, understanding that sometimes people will take offense or think less of you because of it.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by ahpearce on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:37AM (#22355911)
I think in this case, the point of the website the OP posted their passage to is to receive highly critical feedback to ensure 100% accuracy and learn from mistakes. I doubt the person correcting them was doing so with the spirit you describe here. Also, word choice is a bit subjective and perhaps the disagreement with the other poster you're replying to is regional or something else.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by jodrellblank on Sunday February 16, 2020 @01:56PM (#22343144)
out of the woodwork crawl out the little pests who have nothing to do except hold you to the highest level of scrutiny they can imagine

You say, with derision and personal insults to those people who dared not meet your standards for perfect corrections and perfect judgement of feedback desirability.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by simlevesque on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:11PM (#22343494)
When you quote something you are supposed to start with "> ". Took me a long time to understand it was a quote.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by kace91 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:05PM (#22343460)
For a while, I used to hang out in a subreddit for people who are learning Spanish to give advice (I'm a Spaniard).

You wouldn't believe the amount of times I was "corrected" with suggestions that were clearly, blatantly wrong if I didn't outright say that I was a native speaker.

I think it was mainly Americans from Spanish speaking immigrant families who were overconfident on their skills, but it was funny nonetheless.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by inferiorhuman on Sunday February 16, 2020 @04:04PM (#22343755)
How many of those were folks correcting you were Spanish? I wonder if the folks correcting you just learned a different dialect.

For those not familiar, American Spanish diverged significantly from "mainland" Spanish. Even then Mexican Spanish is quite distinct in its own "charming" way from nearly every other Spanish speaking American country. It's not just the vocabulary, even the verb tenses are used differently in different countries. Case in point, the only time I've heard vosotros used outside of school was in a La Polla Records song (ya ahora que?). Or looking for the baños in the Barcelona airport…. The differences are significant enough it's possible you're both right.

Whenever I've seen language discussed online lots of people come out of the woodwork defending their own niche regional variations. The comments section on Vanity Fair's Slang School series of youtube videos is a particularly obnoxious example. The videos themselves are great IMO. It's not always that bad though. I was trying to figure out how to differentiate between a banana and a plantain in Spanish (yay spanishdict forums) and I didn't realize just how many different ways there are to say banana/plantain. It's like Eskimos and snow.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by kace91 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @05:25PM (#22344127)
Nah, I am aware of how broad the Spanish language is, but these were basic mistakes that wouldn't be correct in any dialect. Kinda like how Americans might not know British English vocabulary, yet they know at a glance that "me will spoke English afternoon this" is not correct anywhere.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by inferiorhuman on Monday February 17, 2020 @06:25PM (#22351909)
Yikes, that would be pretty grating. And, yeah, folks love to be pedantic on the intertubes.

To be properly obnoxious I'll wonder if that's how those folks were taught to speak/write. In my mind the analogous English situation is when British speakers use me in place of my.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by loeg on Sunday February 16, 2020 @07:06PM (#22344552)
Maybe it is, in New Zealand!
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by mytailorisrich on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:18PM (#22343252)
I'm also a native speaker (France's French if that makes a difference). "Crédits" was replaced by "bons", which means vouchers. In the context that would indeed be the likely correct option (and I never heard "crédits" used that way...)

It's grammatically incorrect to write "s'inscrire à une salle de sport" and should indeed be "dans une salle de sport" and so it was warranted to correct that.

The other corrections are similarly warranted.

I'm a bit worried if you guys all think the original text was fine... ;)

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by _fj1c on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:28PM (#22343563)
Also, the guy clearly makes the sentences in his head in English and then translate them. Everybody does it. It's just blatant. Fluency makes it go away.

Source: Am a quebecer (fr). I do it mostly when i speak English.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by clemParis on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:03PM (#22343452)
Interesting points! Thanks. I didn't know "inscrire" is a transitive verb, so indeed "s'inscrire à" is grammatically incorrect. As often with french it raises the question of "does this rule make sense regarding usage". A quick google search for "s'inscrire à une salle de sport" shows a lot of results, even from people specializing in sport. And many native speakers were fooled by this rule.

As for the "crédit", the dictionnary definition seem to state it is correct (even though "bon" would be a bit better). https://larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/cr%c3%a9dit/20314... Crédit: Autorisation de dépenses accordée par les autorités qui établissent, votent ou règlent les budgets ; somme ainsi allouée : La bibliothèque dispose d'un crédit de dix mille euros.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by astrobe_ on Sunday February 16, 2020 @04:26PM (#22343860)
Transitivity is not an issue: "obéir à ses instincts" and "suivre ces instincts".

So "s'incrire à" is not incorrect per se, e.g. "s'inscrire à des cours de danse". Even, you must say "s'inscrire à la mairie" (e.g. for poll lists) and not "s'inscrire dans la mairie".

I think that what is technically correct is to use "à" when you talk about where you sign in or register (usually a one-time action) and "dans" when you talk about signing in to perform a recurring activity.

That little à word derives from the Latin words "ab" and "ad", which you can find in words ("adjacent", "adverb", "addition", "adventure"... hemmm I mean *aventure"; sometimes English is more Latin than French) which tell the idea of proximity or direction.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by mytailorisrich on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:18PM (#22343530)
Both "s'inscrire à" and "s'inscrire dans" exist. The trick is to pick the right form. Both may be correct in some cases, but not in others.

Sometimes the meaning changes as well. For example "s'inscrire à l'école" and "s'inscrire dans une école". The latter means "to register with a school" but the former is more "to register to start school" in the sense that it is 'school' in general.

As for "crédits", indeed the meaning is basically the same as in English and the original sentence is correct in the language. But it's not something anyone would say. The terms used would most likely be either "bon" (voucher) or "forfait" (inclusive special rate), or perhaps "chèque" (cheque) instead of "bon" if it was given by your employer as a benefit.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @04:08PM (#22343772)
No one would bat an eye if you used crédits instead of bons in that context, nor would anyone do so if they said s'inscrire à une salle de sport instead of s'inscrire dans une salle de sport. Maybe they're gramatically incorrect for an académicien, but no one but pedants really cares about what the Académie has to say.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by sacado2 on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:40AM (#22347253)
> It's grammatically incorrect to write "s'inscrire à une salle de sport" and should indeed be "dans une salle de sport" and so it was warranted to correct that.

I'm not even sure. If you consider a "salle de sport" is an activity rather than a place, it becomes correct. You would say "s'inscire à la piscine" (for swimming-pool) for instance because "piscine" is considered an activity rather than a place, in this context.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by mytailorisrich on Monday February 17, 2020 @08:57AM (#22347698)
Except, of course, "salle de sport" is not an activity, and if you want to be perfectly correct about activities you should say "s'inscrire à la natation" not "à la piscine". "Piscine" (swimming pool) is the place, "natation" (swimming) is the activity.

It's fine to say "s'inscrire à la salle de sport/piscine" if you are talking about a specific one.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by ahpearce on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:39AM (#22355935)
Also, many people here are kind of missing the point. The OP posted that for the express purpose of receiving corrections and feedback. People are criticizing the corrector for performing the task that was requested of them — likely on a website dedicated to this practice of written correction...
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by pyrale on Monday February 17, 2020 @03:56AM (#22346420)
Also a native speaker, "à une salle" is correct. The academy may disagree, but language is made by users, not a body of old farts chosen by politicians.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by rq1 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:18PM (#22343525)
I hope you’re kidding. The initial text isn’t good, the corrections are maybe not perfect and some are more a matter of taste but definitely better than the original wordings. “y dédier du temps” is closer to the original formulation and equally good for instance.

I noticed that most of native speakers of any language are not that good actually in their mother tongue.

For someone who’s learning the best disservice is to not point their mistakes out.

And sorry it’s not being pedantic to ask people to be precise enough to not spend my time guessing what they maybe were thinking.

It’s already hard enough when well written.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @04:56PM (#22343993)
>I noticed that most of native speakers of any language are not that good actually in their mother tongue.

That doesn't make any sense. Maybe they're not good according to the normative institutions attempting to control the language, but that doesn't have any bearing on the ability of billions of people to communicate with their peers using their mother tongue. Just because an institution says a certain form is "incorrect" doesn't mean people are going to stop using it and make themselves understood with that form.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by rq1 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @06:01PM (#22344275)
If these institutions attempt to control it, then they’re not normative.

It does make perfect sense when the improper use of tenses or grammar break the temporality, spatiality or relationships of the narrative.

Eg. The obvious ones in french: ce/se, ça(cela)/çà/sa... etc. A bit less obvious: “après qu’il ait”, subjunctive after stating a fact or is the subjunctive intended and it wasn’t a fact... etc.

And sometimes it becomes poetic “à l’insu de leur plein gré” when both forms are correct but with completely different meanings.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @06:23PM (#22344361)
Except the subjunctive almost completely lost its initial semantic value of expressing the hypothetical or fictious in French, and in most cases has been replaced by the indicative. (Contrast with languages like Italian or Spanish that did retain the subjunctive in these cases, and look at the (many) situations where the indicative is used in French and the subjunctive is used in Italian/Spanish). These days, the subjunctive is mainly used in clauses where an infinitive could be used (pour qu'il ait/pour avoir, sans qu'il ait/sans avoir, etc.) In that sense, après qu'il ait, on top of feeling more "natural" due to the symmetry with avant qu'il ait, isn't as outrageous an error as académiciens would have you believe, it simply follows this very handy rule of thumb.

Generally speaking, proper use of tenses and moods is overrated; it is inconsistent across Romance languages yet speakers of either have no difficulty making themselves understood, or learning others' systems. Many non-Romance languages dispense entirely with this system and yet their speakers don't encounter any difficulties expressing the same shades of meaning as they would in French.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by rq1 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @07:31PM (#22344663)
> Except the subjunctive almost completely lost its initial semantic value of expressing the hypothetical or fictious in French

That’s definitely not true, and what follows is thus complete bs sorry. Where does this come from to begin with? I even miss Spanish’ subjunctive future in French!

It’s not only a mistake wrt the language rules but also a logical one, if intended initially to state facts.

> Generally speaking, proper use of tenses and moods is overrated

Wiping your butt after pooping is overrated too, you should try the opposite.

To order a coffee maybe, but there is definitely something more interesting in (not only) french.

That’s what makes a language more or less concise and elegant. You can express countless shades of meanings in pure arid arithmetic too, but yet...

And people don’t understand nor agree with each other generally speaking: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @08:33PM (#22344866)
>That’s definitely not true, and what follows is thus complete bs sorry. Where does this come from to begin with?

Alright I have my trusty Grammaire espagnole (Beschrelle) at hand, and here are the differences in use of the subjunctive. The following cases involve the indicative in Spanish and the subjunctive in French:

-A concessive clause, whose opposition relies on a reality-grounded fact (aunque està lloviendo/bien qu'il pleuve)

-A relative clause after a superlative or similar adjectives expressing the idea of "first", "unique", uses the subjunctive in French. The comparison point being grounded in reality, Spanish always uses the indicative. (la mejor secretaria que hemos tenido/la meilleure secrétaire que nous ayons eue).

Conversely, here are cases where Spanish uses the subjunctive and French uses the indicative:

-Expressing a condition, hypothesis or hypothetic comparison after si (si vinieras conmigo/si tu venais avec moi)

-Expressing a supposition (quiza ella esté al tanto/peut-être qu'elle est au courant)

-Temporal clauses in the future (Cuando venga/Quand il viendra)

I can go on if you like. Very clearly, Spanish's use of the subjunctive very closely follows the hypothetical/unrealized aspect of the content, whereas French's use is less consistent with that aspect, and mostly depends on the locution being used.

>I even miss Spanish’ subjunctive future in French!

And yet I'm sure you don't have any problems expressing the hypothetical and/or fictious in Spanish, do you? At least hundreds of millions of Spanish speakers don't.

>Wiping your butt after pooping is overrated too, you should try the opposite.

Seeing how mood use is inconsistent from one Romance language to the other, I guess Spanish and Italian speakers aren't wiping their butts according to your point of view (and you aren't wiping yours according to them). Or...we could just stop adopting such a normative attitude and admit usage changes across countries and time periods without anything being reprehensible about it?

>That’s what makes a language more or less concise and elegant. You can express countless shades of meanings in pure arid arithmetic too, but yet...

Are you seriously arguing that languages that lack the tense and mood system of Romance languages are somehow less elegant and concise, or less able to express countless shades of meaning somehow?

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by rq1 on Monday February 17, 2020 @04:51AM (#22346587)
> I can go on if you like. Very clearly, Spanish's use of the subjunctive very closely follows

Oh yes go on please. But you were originally stating that subjunctive in French lost its semantic value. Now you making it narrow and added "compared to Spanish".

> I guess Spanish and Italian speakers aren't wiping their butts according to your point of view

I think you missed the point. It was meant to say that misuse of tenses and moods may alter causality and in general events chaining is not commutative (poop o wipe != wipe o poop).

> And yet I'm sure you don't have any problems expressing the hypothetical > Are you seriously arguing that languages that lack the tense and mood system

By the very definition of "concise", yes. I said you can do it in any language, but the formulation at some point will become cumbersome.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Monday February 17, 2020 @10:30AM (#22348338)
>But you were originally stating that subjunctive in French lost its semantic value. Now you making it narrow and added "compared to Spanish".

I said almost lost, and I'm choosing to believe out of charity that you didn't notice the extra word.

> But you were originally stating that subjunctive in French lost its semantic value. Now you making it narrow and added "compared to Spanish".

Yes, that's the crux of my argument, comparing use cases in French with that of other Romance languages in order to show how far the subjunctive use cases in French drifted from their original purpose and meaning. How else am I supposed to demonstrate it without a couple of reference points to compare with?

> It was meant to say that misuse of tenses and moods may alter causality and in general events chaining is not commutative (poop o wipe != wipe o poop).

I did take your point a little too literally, sorry. Still, the fact that mood and tense use across Romance languages is inconsistent, yet:

-People who speak either Romance language have no trouble distinguishing the actual from the hypothetical within their language, and

-People who speak multiple Romance languages have no trouble switching from one mood to the other according to the use case/language combination at hand,

shows how unlikely your "poop o wipe" situations are in practice. People "misuse" tenses and moods all the time (which is the prescriptive way of saying tense and mood usage evolves all the time) yet they still manage to communicate clearly somehow. This shows that these are not actually central to convey meaning and there are other avenues that do not use this system (context, adverbial cues, etc.).

>I said you can do it in any language, but the formulation at some point will become cumbersome.

Do you have any evidence for this? Like, can you showcase foreign languages that do not feature this system and whose formulation of the hypothetical would prove consistently more cumbersome and verbose than that of Romance languages? I'm not sure if you realize how far-reaching that statement is.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by throwaway41968 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @12:33PM (#22342649)
Yeah basically half the "mistakes" in that text aren't even wrong. I mean perhaps some annoyingly pedant French teacher, grammarian or Académicien would find something to say about things like using à une salle de sport vs. dans une salle de sport but like 99.9% of French speakers wouldn't notice anything wrong.
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by roel_v on Sunday February 16, 2020 @08:06PM (#22344786)
I co-supervised a British PhD student once who did his PhD at a Spanish university. Not only was he a native speaker, but he also wrote very clear - no passive sentences, clear structure in thinking and writing, very good. He had a paper reviewed by someone who only saw his university on that paper (blind review) and wrote 'paper could do with review by a native speaker'. Why? No idea. I knew who the reviewer was (small world) and he wasn't even a native speaker himself.

My theory: when you ask someone to correct language, and they know the author isn't a native speaker, they'll nitpick on things that native speakers wouldn't be corrected on; but the corrections will be much more about the idiosyncrasies of the corrector than the level of the author (when that author has reached a certain level of proficiency of course).

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by narag on Sunday February 16, 2020 @01:18PM (#22342911)
Most of the corrections she/he received are not justified at all.

I know it sounds absurd, but maybe the corrections weren't made by native speakers.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by GuiA on Sunday February 16, 2020 @02:00PM (#22343157)
From the article:

> I initially preferred native French speakers, but after taking lessons with non-native speakers, I found that I couldn’t really tell the difference between natives and non-natives.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by user5994461 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @01:05PM (#22342843)
Poor corrections indeed. Using "dans" is less correct than the original "a". It's like saying to register "inside" a gym in English. Not the greatest choice of word unless you're really trying to point out the location.

In fact, the only correct correction among all that red is to replace "gym" by "salle de sport". Not to be confused with "gymnasium", it's similar but not the same thing.

The 4th line is misusing the future tense. Should have been pointed out.

Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by rq1 on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:02PM (#22343451)
Re:I Learned French in 12 Months by mytailorisrich on Sunday February 16, 2020 @03:38PM (#22343606)
Both forms are equally correct in some cases but not all cases.

In this case, 'dans' is at the very least 'more correct' than 'à'.