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Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by ekianjo on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:59AM (#22216370)
> au jour d'aujourd'hui

This is typically known, even among french people, to be extremely bad french, so it is pretty much only used by ignorant journalists.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by simias on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:05AM (#22216585)
I would consider it an awkward and redundant turn of phrase but not "extremely bad french". It's on the same level as "monter en haut" (to <go up> up) or "descendre en bas" (go <go-down> down).

Wiktionary[1] says that the expression has existed at least since the 18th century, adding this interesting note:

> À noter aussi que durant ce siècle, la notion de « lumière » était une représentation métaphorique de la « connaissance » (cf. : siècle des lumières). Cette expression peut donc aussi se traduire de la façon suivante : « à la connaissance d’aujourd’hui » ou « au savoir d’aujourd’hui ».

Roughly translated it says that light could be used metaphorically to imply knowledge, so "au jour d'aujourd'hui" could be parsed like "to the light of today" and from there "to the knowledge of today". Now whether that's a justification after the fact or the real origin of the expression, who knows...

[1] https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/au_jour_d%E2%80%99aujourd%E2%...

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by emiliovesprini on Sunday February 02, 2020 @02:08PM (#22218681)
> It's on the same level as "monter en haut" (to <go up> up) or "descendre en bas" (go <go-down> down).

The same thing happens in Spanish ("subir arriba" and "bajar abajo"). It became a serious pet peeve after someone pointed it out to me, until I noticed that people only make this "mistake" in either very noisy places or very time-sensitive situations. It's more a desired redundancy (even if not conscious) than the accidental redundancy in the case of au jour d'aujourd'hui.

Writing about this reminded me of how some people will try and make conlangs that compress as much information into as few sounds as possible, only to render them unusable - whereas within a rounding error all natural languages have the exact same information density and Signal To Noise ratio.

Edits: grammar, formatting.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by geofft on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:05AM (#22216736)
I missed something, where does "light" come from? How did we get from "jour d'aujourd'hui" to "connaisance d'aujourd'hui" - where's the intermediate "lumière d'aujourd'hui"?
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by perthmad on Sunday February 02, 2020 @09:21AM (#22217022)
"Jour" is polysemic, it literally means "day", but metaphorically it also means "light". For instance, "voir quelque chose sous un nouveau jour" means "to see something under a new light", rather than "a new day".
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by StavrosK on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:40AM (#22216672)
Isn't "descendre en bas" just "to descend down"?
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by newleaf on Sunday February 02, 2020 @07:59AM (#22216723)
I imagine it’s redundant because down is the only way you can descend.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by StavrosK on Sunday February 02, 2020 @08:06AM (#22216739)
Yes, I mean that's a more accurate translation that carries the redundancy better.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by simias on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:51AM (#22217430)
I considered it but I thought that "to descend" was too rare and formal in English to really carry over how the phrase truly feels in French. "I descend down" decidedly feels much more awkward than "je descend en bas" to me, if only because I've heard the latter a lot and the former probably never.

"I climb up" might give a somewhat better impression of how "je monte en haut" sounds in French, although I suppose that you can very much "climb down" in English so it's not a perfect match.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by dmurray on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:26PM (#22218419)
It's idiomatic to say "I rise up" or "I raise X up" in English, which are analogous though not translations. English just loves prepositional verbs.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by StavrosK on Sunday February 02, 2020 @10:54AM (#22217454)
Ah, I see, and both "climb up" and "climb down" are used, so it's not equivalent, you're right.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by sum_of_zeros on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:35PM (#22228044)
unless you're trapped in some escherian[1] world?

[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._C._Escher

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by matt_the_bass on Sunday February 02, 2020 @09:41AM (#22217100)
Yes but “descendre” and “monter” can mean other things in other contexts. So I feel the redundancy is from poor translation.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by shean_massey on Sunday February 02, 2020 @05:40PM (#22219981)
Exactly! Translation is tricky business.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by skoob on Sunday February 02, 2020 @09:04AM (#22216944)
Sure, although to descend feels a lot more formal than descendre does in French.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by johnchristopher on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:04AM (#22216387)
And politicians who heavily used this expression for two or three years. That trend is now gone.

Pet peeve of mine, there also was the word "sociétal" used instead of "social". Which led me to use the locution "les réseaux sociétaux" because fuck.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by K0SM0S on Sunday February 02, 2020 @04:56PM (#22219723)
I didn't know I was old already at 37, but when I was young, the word societal was not even related to social: literally pertains to society, which without further qualification is the general group of "all of us" — whereas e.g. the "Audio Engineer Society" is the group of that field.

Society is opposed to private, fragmented circles ("some" audio engineers, "some" people), subset communities contained in society. Externally, society as opposed to other societies i.e. countries or cultures.

Then one day some r/Iamverysmart self-proclaimed intellectual heard "societal" and liked the word, emotionally, and began using it — that's how you learn words, right? By using them. Trial and error.

So, so many errors.

But others liked it too. And ever more. Lovely errors. And suddenly because people confused it with "social", it began an "umbrella concept" for "everything involving many people doing stuff together". Sure, that works for society and social matters. It's also as empty a concept as you can make. But in the Twitter age, it's OK to use 1 word to mean 20 things and never detailing any of it,

because fuck.

Agreed.

The truth is so few people care, it's not even worth the time to delete -et-. Those who do care, speak with others who understand, and ignore the rest. Sad state of affairs, but I've grown convinced it's just human nature, and has been virtually forever.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by perthmad on Sunday February 02, 2020 @09:24AM (#22217028)
On that particular topic, I definitely recommend reading François Héran's 1991 article "Pour en finir avec « sociétal »" [1].

[1] https://www.persee.fr/doc/rfsoc_0035-2969_1991_num_32_4_4079

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by johnchristopher on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:36PM (#22218484)
Thanks, that made my day :).
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by mam2 on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:23AM (#22217660)
Sociétal is mostly about values and social is about the community.

Hence why we say sécurité sociale et non sécurité sociétale.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by ekianjo on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:01PM (#22221326)
When you create words that don't exist you can put any meaning behind them I guess.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by remram on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:02AM (#22217516)
I take "aujourd'hui" to mean "today" and "au jour d'aujourd'hui" to mean "to this day", which is not the same.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by ekianjo on Sunday February 02, 2020 @11:02PM (#22221331)
aujourd'hui = today

jusqu'a maintenant = to this day

au jour d'aujourd'hui is just too awkward to use, it even sounds bad.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by remram on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:48AM (#22225931)
I understand it to be slightly different, but I am not trying to argue for its use.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by stringyham on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:30AM (#22223954)
> extremely bad french, so it is pretty much only used by ignorant journalists

I wouldn't say that, it's still debated whether it's correct or not.

Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by dang on Sunday February 02, 2020 @01:14PM (#22218333)
Sort of like the English phrase "in a few moments from now", also beloved of broadcasters.
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by wiether on Sunday February 02, 2020 @03:49PM (#22219317)
Came here to say that, thank you mon bon ami !
Re:Verlan: French slang that inverses words by sam_lowry_ on Sunday February 02, 2020 @06:11AM (#22216407)
<sarcasm>That's exactly what the populace was saying in Middle Ages, when the word aujourd'hui was a novelty.</sarcasm>