We've moved a lot of services into Kubernetes and broken things up into smaller and smaller micro-services. It definitely eliminates a lot of the complexity for developers ... but you trade it for operational complexity (e.g. routing, security, mis-matched client/server versions, resiliency when dependency isn't responding). I still believe that overall software quality is higher with micro-services (our Swagger documents serve as living ICDs), but don't kid yourself that you're going to save development time. And don't fall into the trap of shrinking your micro-services too small.

The big trade off is the ability to rewrite a large part of the system if a business pivot is needed. That was the bane of the previous company I worked in, engineering and operations was top notch unfortunately it was done too soon and it killed the company because it could not adjust to a moving market (ie customer and sales feedback was ignored because a lot of new features would require an architecture change that was daunting). It was very optimized for use cases that were becoming irrelevant. In my small startup where product market fit is still moving I always thank myself that everything is under engineered in a monolith when signing a big client that ask for adjustments.

You’ll have endless race conditions to deal with, even when storage is central and unique.

We learned and is continuing learning that.

Unique storage for multiple services sounds like a recipe for disaster. The purpose of splitting services, at least one of, is to decouple parts of the code at a fundamental level, including storage and overall ownership thereof. You're probably better served with a modular monolith if you really can't break storage up.

No, only one service is reading/writing, everything else just call that. Still, things get quite lost when it involves talking to multiple other teams and needing to keep everything in sync.

Ok, but then what's the point of splitting it in the first place? The way I see it is to split your domain so that a team owns not only the code, but also the model, the data, the interface and the future vision of a small enough area. If a service owns all the data, then someone who needs to make any change is bottlenecked by it and they would need knowledge beyond their domain. So the key is defining the right domains (or domain boundaries). Unfortunately most people just split before thinking about the details of this process, so the split will sooner or later hit a wall of dependencies.

We need synchronous work flow and then asynchronous workflows. That was the primary reason. Now that doesn't mean it must split, but since we're running on multiple hosts anyway it wasn't hard to split off the asynchrounous functions to another batch.

> And don't fall into the trap of shrinking your micro-services too small.

^ this

I think the naming decision of the concept has been detrimental to its interpretation. In reality, most of the time what we really want is a"one-or-more reasonably-sized systems with well-enough-defined responsibility boundaries".

Perhaps "Service Right-Sizing" would steer people to better decisions. Alas, that "Microservices" objectively sounds sexier.

> It definitely eliminates a lot of the complexity for developers

We're currently translating a 20 year old ~50MLOC codebase into a distributed monolith (using a variety of approaches that all approximate strangler). I have far less motivation to go to work if I know that I will be buried in the old monorepo. I can change, build and get a service changed in less than an hour. Touching the monorepo is easily 1.5 days for a single change.

We seem to be gaining far more in terms of developer productivity than we are losing to operational overhead.

Sorry ... I should have said "don't kid yourself that you'll save time" instead of developer time. We do indeed have a faster change cycle on every service which is a win even if we're still burning (in general) the same number of hours over the whole system.

I also should have mentioned that it's definitely more pleasant for those in purely development roles. Troubleshooting, resiliency and system effects don't impact everyone (and I actually like those types of hard problems). I'd also suggest that integrating tracing, metrics, and logging in a consistent way is imperative. If you're on Kubernetes, using a proxy like Istio (Envoy) or LinkerD is a great way to get retries, backoff, etc established without changing coded.

Finally, implementing a healthcheck end-point on every service and having the impact of any failures properly degrade dependent services is really helpful both in troubleshooting and ultimately in creating a UI with graceful degradation (toasts with messages related to what's not currently available are great). I have great hopes for the healthcheck RFC that's being developed at https://github.com/inadarei/rfc-healthcheck.

That’s an encouraging story to hear. The thing I’ve noticed is that the costs of moving a poorly written monolith to a microservice architecture can be incredibly high. I also think that microservice design really needs to be thought through and scrutinized, because poorly designed microservices start to suck really quickly in terms of maintenance.

And also trading off with how easy it is to understand the system. If you have one monolith in most cases it's a single code base you can navigate through and understand exactly who calls who and why.

I totally agree. Mostly we are doing microservices the wrong way. We are not drawing the boundaries correctly, they are too small, they have too many interdependencies, they don't really encapsulate the data, and you end up with many interdependencies. There is not enough guidance about sizing them. We are just building distributed monoliths. Which is great for cloud companies because they get to sell many boxes.

Micro-services are just connected things which work together to accomplish something. But where are those connections described? In some tables somewhere. Maybe.

Whereas if you write a single monolithic program its connections are described in code, preferably type-checked by a compiler. I think that gives you at least theoretically a better chance of understanding what are the things that connect, and how they connect.

So if there was a good programming language for describing micro-services then that would probably resolve many management difficulties, and then the question would be simply do we get performance benefits from running on multiple processors.

There is such a language, and it is Erlang.

Literally this. Reading the article I kept thinking to myself "which is why Erlang/Elixir is great because it doesn't make you choose up front". It's wild that with how popular Elixir has gotten that it still isn't seen as a serious contender for many companies

I write Elixir professionally, Erlang/Elixir and BEAM is no one-stop solution to these problems either. It has tools to help you, but you can very easily end up in the same boat.

I have never tried Erlang, but I have read that it doesn't have static type checking. How does it guarantee that different services are following protocols?

Erlang is dynamically typed in part, I believe, to allow hot-swapping code in a running system. It relies on pattern matching to ensure code contracts / ie your types are more like guarantees that a pattern holds true, even if some of the specifics of that protocol have changed. Thus, with zero downtime, you can make updates to the system, while still knowing that your assertions about received data matching your protocol remains true. Any adapters can act like both type update and schema migration simultaneously, as in the case where you wish to support multiple versions of an API simultaneously.

The runtime system has built-in support for concurrency, distribution and fault tolerance. Because of the design goals for Erlang and it's runtime, you get services that can all run on one system or be distributed across a network, but the code that you actually write is relatively simple; the entire distributed system acts as a fault-tolerant VM that has functional guarantees.

If your startup node fails, then other nodes are elected. If a node crashes while in the middle of a method, another node will execute the method instead.

The runtime itself has some analogies to functional coding styles. It runs on a register machine rather than a stack machine. The call and return sequence is replaced by direct jumps to the implementation of the next instruction.

This is the relevant chapter in the manual: https://erlang.org/doc/reference_manual/typespec.html

> Simple tip: Don't duplicate data without adding value to it. Just don't.

Not much is said about S3's design principles in public, but that one was one of them.

Disclaimer: Recalling from memory.

I don't want advocate one way or another (micro vs. monoliths) because tomato tomato. However here are a few arguments in defense of microservices regarding these three signs you commented:

1. Microservices do not have some inherent property of having to duplicate data. You can have data in single source and deliver that data to anyone who needs it through an API. There are infinitely many caching solutions if you are worried about this becoming a bottleneck

2 and 2.5. There are tools for microservice architectures that counter these problems to a degree, mainstream example being containers and container orchestration (e.g. Docker and Kubernetes). One can even make an argument that microservices force you to build your systems so they are more robust than your monolith would be. If the argument for monoliths is that it's easier to maintain reliability when every egg is in one basket then you are putting all your bets into that basket and it becomes a black hole for developer and operations resources, as well as making operations evolution very slow

3. There are again tools for handling data and "syncing" (although I don't like the idea of having to "sync") the services, for example message queues / streaming processing platforms (e.g. Kafka). If some data or information might be of interest to multiple services, you should then push such data to a message queue and consume it from services that need it. The "syncing" problem sounds like something that arises when you start duplicating your data across services which shouldn't happen (see my argument on 1.)

Again not to say microservices are somehow universally better. Just coming into defense of their core concepts when they get unfairly accused

The trouble is that this process of streaming events over Kafka or Kinesis means that subscribed microservices will be duplicating the bus data in their own way in their local databases. If one of them falls out of the loop for whatever reason you are in trouble.

Now, there is a pattern called Event Sourcing (ES) which proposes that the source of truth should be the event bus itself and microservice databases are mere projections of this data. This is all good and well except it's very hard to implement in practice. If a microservice needs to replay all business events from months or years in the past it may take hours or days to do this. What about the business in the meantime? If it's a service that significantly reduces the usability of you application you effectively have a long downtime anyway.

Transactional activity becomes incredibly hard in the microservices world with either 2 phased commit (only good for very infrequent transactions due to performance) or with so called Sagas (which are very complex to get right and maintain).

Any company that isn't delivering its service to billions of users daily will likely suffer far more from microservices than they will benefit.

> This is all good and well except it's very hard to implement in practice. If a microservice needs to replay all business events from months or years in the past it may take hours or days to do this.

In my experience it's not hard to implement, but of course it depends on the problem domain (and probably also on not splitting things up willy-nilly because of the microservices fad). I think the key to event sourcing and immutability in general is to not overdo it. For example you will likely need to redact certain data (e.g. for legal compliance), so zero information loss is out. Systems like Kafka are a poor choice for long term data storage, the default retention is 1 week for a reason.

But the things that are wonderful about event sourcing (the ability to inspect, replay and fix because you haven't lost information) mostly materialize over a 1 week timeframe.

If you need to recover a lot of state from the event log you will need store aggregated event data at regular intervals to play back from to have acceptable performance. But in practice, in many cases the data granularity you need goes down as the data ages anyway, and you do some lossy aggregation as a natural part of your business process (as opposed to to deal with even sourcing performance problems). I.e. for the short timeframe kafka is the source of truth, but for the stuff you care long term it's some database, and this happens kinda naturally. So often you don't need to implement checkpointing.

You're right that micro-services avoid a lot of the pain of micro-services if they have one consolidated "Data service" that sits on top of their data repositories. But a micro-services architecture with a consolidated data service is similar to an airplane on the ground, it's true it can't fall out of the sky, but it's as useful as a car with awful gas mileage.

Once you add in this consolidated data service, every other service is dependent on the "data service" team. This means almost an change you make, requires submitting a request. Are their priorities your priorities? I would hate to be reliant on another team to do every development task.

Theoretically you could remove this issue by allowing any team to modify the data service, but then at that point you've just taken an application and added a bunch of http calls between method calls.

This same problem ops up with resiliency. If you have a consolidated data service, what happens if your data service goes down? How useful are your other services if they can't access any data?

I'm not following. How do things work better for the non-microservice approach?

Re. teams: For any project above a certain size, you'll have teams. If that's a network boundary, a process boundary, or a library boundary doesn't change that you'll have multiple teams for a large project.

I'm not sure I get the resiliency point. I worked on a project where the dependent data service was offline painfully frequently. We used async tasks and caching to keep things running and were able to let the users do many tasks. For us our tool was still fairly useful when dependencies went down. If we used monolith then everything would be down, right? That doesn't sound better.

> Re. teams: For any project above a certain size, you'll have teams. If that's a network boundary, a process boundary, or a library boundary doesn't change that you'll have multiple teams for a large project.

For sure, and one of the big selling points for micro-services is you can split those teams by micro service, with each team having an independent service they are responsible for. But when a big chunk of everyone's development is done on one giant service everyone shares you don't get the same benefits you would if the services were independent. Or put another way, splitting micro-services vertically can yield a bunch of benefits, but splitting them horizontally introduces a lot of pain with few benefits.

> I'm not sure I get the resiliency point. I worked on a project where the dependent data service was offline painfully frequently. We used async tasks and caching to keep things running and were able to let the users do many tasks. For us our tool was still fairly useful when dependencies went down. If we used monolith then everything would be down, right? That doesn't sound better.

I'm not saying to never spin off services. If you have a piece of functionality that you just can't get stable for the life of you, splitting it off into it's own service, and coding everything up to be resilient to it's failure makes a lot of sense. (I am very curious what the cause of the data service crashing was that you couldn't fix.)

But micro-services aren't a free lunch for resiliency. You're increasing the numbers of systems, servers, configurations, and connections which by default will decrease up-time until you do a ton of work. Not to mention tracking and debugging cross service failures is much more difficult than a single server.

Ok, then I'll just keep calm and continue with a distributed monolith. In 5 years it will be the mainstream and a new way to go. I can even imagine titles of newsletters: "Distributed monolith - the golden mean of software architecture".

> Don't duplicate data without adding value to it.

What about running multiple versions of a microservice in parallel -- don't each need their own yet separate databases that attempt to mirror each other as best they can?

I'm assuming you mean in production micro-service, if that's not the case, please elaborate a bit more...

The short answer is "no," as succinctly stated by the, I assume from the name, majestic SideburnsOfDoom. The versions shouldn't _EVER_ be incompatible with each other.

E.g. you need to rename a column.

Do not: rename the column, e.g. `ALTER TABLE RENAME COLUMN...`. Because, your systems are going to break with the new schema.

Do: Add a new column, with the new name, and migrate data to the new column, once it's good upgrade the rest of your instances, then drop the old column. Because, you can use both versions at the same time now without breaking anything. Yes, it can be a little tricky to get the data sync'd into the new column, but that's a lot less tricky than doing it for _every_ table and column.

Those are just different (versions of) interfaces for interacting with the same data source, ie no not several databases... But I'm no expert

No.

Sounds exactly like a project I am in. Not to mention that we have like three "microservices" that access the exact same database. Oh, and a single Git repo.

Yeah...

Google technically has one big repo. It just depends on how you do it.

The most basic thing I see people neglecting is that inserting a network protocol is really adding many additional components that weren't there before, often doubling or even tripling the amount of code, config, and documentation required. If there's a single large project that combines "A+B" modules with no networking and you split this into networked services, then you now have:

    1) "A" Component
    2) "B" Component
    3) "A" Server
    4) "A" Client

So for example if you started off with a single "project" in your favorite IDE, you now have 4, give or take. You might be able to code-gen your server and client code out of a single IDL file or something, but generally speaking you're going to be writing code like "B -> A client -> A server -> A" no matter what instead of simply "B -> A".

Now you have to worry about network reliability, back-pressure, queuing, retries, security, bandwidth, latency, round-trips, serialization, load-balancing, affinity, transactions, secrets storage, threading, and on and on...

A simple function call translates to a rats nest of dependency injection, configuration reads, callbacks, and retry loops.

Then if you grow to 4 or more components you have to start worrying about the topology of the interconnections. Suddenly you may need to add a service bus or orchestrator to reduce the number of point-to-point connections. This is not avoidable, because if you have less than 4 components, then why bother to break things out into micro services in the first place!?

Now when things go wrong in all sorts of creative ways, some of which are likely still the subject of research papers, heaven help you with the troubleshooting. First, it'll be the brownouts that the load balancer doesn't correctly flag as a failure, then the priority inversions, then the queue filling up, and then it'll get worse from there as the load ramps up.

Meanwhile nothing stops you having a monolithic project with folders called "A", "B", "C", etc... with simple function calls or OO interfaces across the boundaries. For 99.9% of projects out there this is the right way to go. And then, if your business takes off into the stratosphere, nothing stops you converting those function call interfaces into a network interface and splitting up your servers. However, doing this when it's needed means that you know where the split makes sense, and you won't waste time introducing components that don't need individual scaling.

For God's sake, I saw a government department roll out an Azure Service Fabric application with dozens of components for an application with a few hundred users total. Not concurrent. Total.

> 2.5 Bonus, there is likely no way to meaningfully decouple the services. Service X can be "tolerant" of service Y's failure, but it cannot ever function without service Y.

Nit: if service X could function without service Y, then it seems to follow service Y should not exist in the first place. And equivalently, the functionality of service Y before some microservice migration.

Classic example is recommendations on a product page. If the personal recommendation service is not available / slow to respond, you might fall back on recommendations based on the best sellers or even fall back further by not giving recommendations at all.

Recommendations are not necessary, and not showing them will significantly affect the bottom line, so you don't want to skip them if possible. But not showing the product page (in a timely manner), because the recommendation engine has a hiccup, is even worse for your bottom line.

Not necessarily. Maybe service X logs in a user and service Y sends them an email letting them know that someone logged in from a new location. Y adds value but it's not essential to X.

> Most people think a micro-service architecture is a panacea because "look at how simple X is," but it's not that simple. It's now a distributed system, and very likely, it's a the worst-of-the-worst a distributed monolith. Distributed system are hard, I know, I do it.

This line of argument fails to take into consideration any of the reasons why in general microservices are the right tool for the right job.

Yes, it's challenging, and yes it's a distributes system. Yet, with microservices you actually are able to reuse specialized code, software packages, and even third-party services. That cuts down on a lot of dev time and cost, and makes the implementation of a lot of of POCs or even MVPs a trivial task.

Take for example Celery. With Celery all you need to do to implement a queuable background task system that's trivially scalable is to write the background tasks, get a message broker up and running, launch worker instances, and that's it. What would you have to do to achieve the same goal with a monolith? Implement your own producer/consumer that runs on the same instance that serves requests? And aren't you actually developing a distributes system anyway?

> Take for example Celery. With Celery all you need to do to implement a queuable background task system that's trivially scalable is to write the background tasks,

that's a little bit of a straw man because that's not the "microservice" architecture this post is talking about. I personally wouldn't call that a "microservice" architecture, I'd call it, "a background queue", although strictly speaking it can be described as such.

what this post is talking about are multiple synchronous pieces of a business case being broken up over the http / process line for no other reason than "we're afraid of overarchitecting our model". This means, your app has some features like auth, billing, personalization, reporting. You start from day one writing all of these as separate HTTPD services rather than just a single application with a variety of endpoints. Even though these areas of functionality may be highly interrelated, you're terrified of breaking out the GOF, using inheritance, or ORMs, because you had some bad experience with that stuff. So instead you spend all your time writing services, spinning up containers, defining complex endpoints that you wouldn't otherwise need...all becuase you really want to live in a "flat" world. I'm not allowed to leak the details of auth into billing because there's a whole process boundary! whew, I'm safe.

Never mind that you can have an architecture that is all separate process with HTTP requests in between, and convert it directly to a monolithic one with the same strict separation of concerns, you just get to lose the network latency and complex marshalling between the components.

Programmers are, by and large, quite bad at not breaking encapsulation when they're dealing with a monolith. Not their fault, really, but when management comes to you and says, hey, can't you get it done in just a day, we really need this, and you know you could if you just hacked through that particular isolation barrier just this once, and yeah it will create bad bugs if things change in a particular way in the future, but you'll leave a comment so it will be fine and this way you can go home and have an ipa and finish re-runs of that show you like so you break the rules just this once. And that only happens a few more times, and then slowly bit by bit things become intertwined and rigid, and then five years down the road when half the people have left and the team has grown and other teams use the project and are trying to commit code to it you have to go to management, hat in hand, sorry, we need to rewrite it from scratch to keep adding features, new and exciting and unexpected things happen when we change things in the current project.

Independent services that create a coherent whole enforce isolation barriers. I don't believe in microservices. These things don't need to be micro. They can be just normal-sized services. I don't even particularly care internal to those barriers how bad things get. There are programmers that write shit I think is hot garbage and will cause all kinds of bugs as time goes on. But if they are confined to their space space, and they're solving their problem and are happy and making management happy then w/e. That piece of the whole will collapse and die eventually, but it won't take everything with it. It's just a piece, and it provided value for a while, so probably worth it from a business sense.

But when you have a monolith? And Developer Dave and Programmer Pete tell Big Boss Bob that they could sure get that feature out quick if only it weren't for those pesky rules preventing them from putting in a few mutexes in that one module so they can just read some data directly from it, and boy wouldn't it that be swell? Well Big Boss Bob says we need to get this feature SHIPPED BOYES so buckle up and put in those mutexes, and now the fucking thread goes into a deadlock state every so often but it's really intermittent so you spend hours debugging the damn things and late nights because yeah features gotta ship but shit gotta work, and you trace it back to Developer Dave and Programmer Pete and their change but what do you do? Big Boss Bob said do it that way and what? You gonna whine to Director Dan about it? Is that gonna get you back your late night spend figuring out what was going on? Nah.

Make systems that are just small that when people break them completely it doesn't mean the end of the world to throw it out and start over.

I'm really tired of immensely awkward and problematic design patterns that are intended to act as guard rails for good design. It is a myth that this actually works. A rushed project is a rushed project; a team that is inclined to overbuild will overbuild no matter what artificial constraints you give them up front. A microservice design that has concurrency problems can be extremely difficult to debug, in my personal experience this is easily much more difficult than debugging a monolith. Having to spin up 30 services in order to reproduce an issue that could otherwise be done in a single in-memory unit test is a real thing.

Not every tool is right for every job. But the idea that services provide no guardrails is, in my experience, categorically false. Like I said, not a fan of "micro", but there is a ton of inherent value in defining implicit isolation barriers. It's absolutely true that there is NO design impervious to idiots. This has always been true and will remain true until the heat death of the universe. But man, "hard" isolation barriers are nice to have, either through services or packages. I worked for a company and I was on a team that built a set of packages which were distributed to a bunch of other teams, and due to organization changes another team took ownership of one of those packages. In almost no time flat it became absolutely convoluted. Not my problem though, right? Here's the thing: it became buggy and hard for them to maintain, but it had no effect except for when using that particular package. I had worked on a project previously where there was a legit monolith, no packages or library delineations, one code base, and boy with all the teams sticking their fingers in that particular pie things got out of hand in a BAD way. It was so bad that certain teams would get into change wars where one group would make a change in a module that would break another group who would change it back and break the first group, and back and forth.

After my team had taken that project and split it into a bunch of smaller packages, it's not like everyone magically became better programmers. The same people who were introducing fucking spaghetti code that did who-knows-what in overly complex ways were still around, and they were given effectively their own sandboxes. In fact quite a few more teams within the company began using those packages, which just became modules they shipped with. We no longer had to deal with people screwing with core packages because they no longer had ownership, they could no longer make merges into that area of the code base, so we could keep things stable.

So I'm a hard sell on monoliths. Like, I'm not actually pro micro-services, per se. I'm mostly just anti-monolith. Giant code bases with multiple teams simultaneously contributing are doomed to fucking disaster.

One last comment on this, if you have like 5 guys just hacking away on some project and you feel that splitting it up into 30 micro-services is the only way to make things work then you've got problems. I'm not talking about small teams building straightforward systems. I'm talking about giant organizations building giant complicated systems, trying to design and manage that.

> Programmers are, by and large, quite bad at not breaking encapsulation when they're dealing with a monolith.

What is there about microservices that makes them better at this? Most of the stuff I have seen has been highly coupled.

Hard process boundaries, largely. I mean, unless you use mmio in which case you're probably going out of your way to break things. Also design constraints should be taken into account- if you need to build highly performant systems, yeah, probably shouldn't have a bunch of services talking to each other over http/json. But you could probably also isolate the part of the system that actually needs to be performant.

Also, like I said, not a fan of the "micro" terminology, it just confuses the issue.

And keep in mind that coupling is not the opposite of encapsulation. Encapsulation just means hiding internal state. So unless you're going completely out of your way to break things, you'll have services that communicate through some message passing protocol, which means services are inherently encapsulated. It's not that you can't break that, it's that generally it's hard.

Here's an example of breaking it, though:

You have an API that talks to the database. You need to get users, groups, and preferences. Instead of writing different endpoints to access all of these things individually, clever you decides to simply make an endpoint that is "postQuery" and you give it a sql string and it will return the results. Great. You have now made the API effectively pointless.

Another example: you have an API that needs to perform standard accounting analysis on an internal dataset. Instead of adding endpoints for each calculation (or an endpoint with different inputs), you create an endpoint "eval" that will internal eval a string of the language of your choice. Congrats, you can now use that API to execute arbitrary code! No need to define any more pesky endpoints.

So yeah, absolutely people can make shit decisions and build garbage. It's entirely possible. But hey, at least it's pretty obvious this way and if you see your team do this you can look for another job.

Physical isolation. I don't actually like the arguments but I can't quite say it's wrong, because the Java landscape just put a huge amount of effort into modularity and encapsulation because developers kept using reflection to bypass module boundaries. Usually for performance reasons. With a microservices architecture that is impossible anymore because there is physically no way to read across address space boundaries without sending a message and introducing an RPC, which would require the support of the target module.

Now that said, with the new jigsaw module system in the jvm, and the multi-language support that is constantly getting better, a disciplined enough senior management team could enforce module boundaries within the process. It means any change to jvm command line flags would require the approval of the most senior tech lead, because that's how module boundary enforcement can be disabled, but if you have that and it works you would get significant performance and simplicity benefits.

You'll never ever be able to stop bad developers from making poor choices and ruining things.

So you have encapsulated services... boss comes and says "we need feature X right away". What if feature X spans all of your microservices? The bad programmer will hack together a monstrosity between multiple services. It's the micro-lith problem: instead of a monolith, you have a monolith disguised as micro services. Now their poor choices are spread across a lot of services and distributed, it's not really confined to just one service.

> What if feature X spans all of your microservices? The bad programmer will hack together a monstrosity between multiple services.

Wait, what is a good programmer supposed to do in this scenario?

> that's a little bit of a straw man because that's not the "microservice" architecture this post is talking about. I personally wouldn't call that a "microservice" architecture, I'd call it, "a background queue", although strictly speaking it can be described as such.

It is not a strawman; it's a concrete example of the technical, practical, operational, and economical advantages of microservices architecture, more specifically service reuse, specially managed services provided by third parties.

While you're groking how a multihreadig library is expected to be used, I already fired a message broker that distributes tasks across a pool of worker instances. Why? Because I've opted not to go with the monolith and went with the microservices/distributed architecture approach.

> While you're groking how a multihreadig library is expected to be used, I already fired a message broker that distributes tasks across a pool of worker instances. Why? Because I've opted not to go with the monolith and went with the microservices/distributed architecture approach.

I'm so confused by that statement... because I can't for the life of me figure out how you got there.

You absolutely can have a monolith which is multi-threaded or asynchronous and "resource/task pools." The JVM for instance has threads, I use BEAM (Elixir) personally, and it's even pre-emptively scheduling my tasks in parallel and asynchronously... but, I still don't get what multi-threading has to do with microservices.

Microservices and monoliths are boundaries for your application they aren't implementation details (i.e. all microservices must be asynchronous is strictly not true) in and of themselves, they're design details. That design can influence the implementation but they are separate.

Ex. there are plenty of people who use Sidekiq and redis like you're using Celery but don't call it a microservice. It's just a piece of their monolith since it's largely the same depdencies.

beam is god damn magical. It would be hard to replicate that kind of decentralized monolith without considerably more work with any other technology.

I mean consider a gen server mounted in your supervisor tree. its 5 min of work; tops. Doing the same with kubernetes would require coordinating a message broker, picking a client library, creatig a restart strategy and networking. all of which would add considerably to your development time

You can have a worker pool with a monolith too. Just run multiple copies of your app.

> What would you have to do to achieve the same goal with a monolith?

You would take Celery, get a message broker up and running and launch some worker instances.

I'm completely in your camp, and I'm surprised by the lack of nuance HN seems to show (especially regarding micro-services & Kubernetes).

There are many benefits to having microservices that people seem to forget because they think that everyone interested in microservices is interested in splitting their personal blog into 4 different services.

They take coordination, good CICD, and a lot of forethought to ensure each service is cooperating in the ecosystem properly, but once established, it can do wonders to dev productivity.

I can't tell if my project is a monolith or microservices, but it's going well so far. We use a single scalable database instance as a message broker and persistence source, and have a common framework implements distributed algorithms that every service uses to expose "OS-like" constructs (actor activation, persistent collections, workflows, Git etc. All communication is done through independent protocols.. there's not much coupling between protocols (except for common ones like "schedule this job on this device"), so it's not really a cobweb of dependencies, but everything relies on that single database.

I think if the database gets too overloaded I'll partition certain tree nodes across multiple masters (this is feasible because the framework doesn't rely on a single timestream).

With the level of shared code (the framework) and the single database, it's somewhat monolithic but the actors themselves are quite well-behaved and independent on top of it.

The understanding is your monolith may use third party services. Nobody is writing SQL engines here.